CrescentSaber Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 I mix in throws also but only once in a while. Most of the better players tech throws pretty easily but tossing one in place of a combo finisher like for example for Noel: Landing a 6A>6C>j.A>j.B>, and doing a throw instead of j.236C catches people of guard. Just don't overdo it or you become predictable. I use throws more with Noel because she can link every one of her throws to something: her air throw can start a combo and both ground throws can be linked to distortions.
DC Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 Actually midcombo throws are great online. Latency = harder to tech grabs lol But seriously no, don't ever midcombo throw. There's no "catching people off guard." Purple exclamation marks are so easy to react to and tech it's better to pretend that they don't exist.
Circuitous Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 Maybe it's just 'cuz I'm on standard def (good ol' 480i) but when I've got them airborne after the second jump cancel we're up so high you can't really see the !!. Not that that's a good reason, mind you. But yeah good to get some input on that.
Mizzet Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 On the topic of throws, Tsubaki's attacks are so colourful and flashy that I personally have trouble seeing that green exclamation mark lol. Especially in that damn stage of hers which is half green as well. Anyway, if I land a ground distortion on a cornered opponent, as they fall back down along the edge of the screen I like to jump and grab them. People never expect it and fall for it the first time or two, anything else I do like 6c or tk 236c would be prorated to hell by then and I don't mind risking the throw in this case.
Effay Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 I've recently picked up Noel and I actually have the throw cancels from the 6C's down pat, I never miss them, but I cannot for the life of me actually connect this part of the combo: 5D > 6B > 5C > 6B > 5C > 236D I cannot connect the 6B most of the time at all, though if I do I always land the first 5C but NEVER the second 6B. They always tech out of it above my 5D. I've tried all kinds of different timings for it and it doesn't seem to work. I'm guessing that I"m not timing the 6A > 6C throw cancel loops right, except they always connect. A little help, anyone?
CrescentSaber Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 I think it depends on the height they are at before you use 5d. I"m working on learning that part too. The 6B always misses and they tech out of the combo. It depends on the character, how far you are away from them, and how many times you do the 6c throw cancels.
TOKiMONSTA Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 If they are too high, delay 5D after 6C. Delay the second 6B in the drive chain.
Halcyone3 Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 the second 6B in the drive combo should always have a small delay
CrescentSaber Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Ok thanks I didn't know that. That's been tripping me up for the longest time lol.
dragontamer Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 BTW: There is a very simple tech trap from the 6C loop. 6C BC 6C BC 6C BC 5A -> (wait for reset) -> 6C BC x4 -> 5D -> BNB
Senovit Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 Yeah, because no one is going to barrier block when they are in the air and you are on the ground.
Nitrocidal Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 And they can forward / back tech out pretty easily it looks like, even if they don't have barrier (ie bursted)
Danny Schme Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 BTW: There is a very simple tech trap from the 6C loop. 6C BC 6C BC 6C BC 5A -> (wait for reset) -> 6C BC x4 -> 5D -> BNB In theory this is nice but the chances of this actually ever working seem very slim. Barrier blocking and teching towards or away can easily prevent this from working.
dragontamer Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 What is the point of a tech trap? For me, it is to keep the opponent honest. You need a way to prevent the opponent from simply mashing AAAAAAAA trying to recover at the earliest point in your combo, to prevent black beats. By providing a tech trap / reset during the 6C loop, you discourage your opponent from mashing out, making the black-beat combo during a 6C loop far easier to accomplish. At very least, it becomes a 50/50 mixup between mashing out during the 6C loop and waiting the combo out, hoping Noel doesn't go for the black beat combo.
CrescentSaber Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 BTW: There is a very simple tech trap from the 6C loop. 6C BC 6C BC 6C BC 5A -> (wait for reset) -> 6C BC x4 -> 5D -> BNB Sounds very situational to me. It depends on your opponent's habits mostly. But since most people tech away from you after getting juggled, I see this working about 50% of the time...in the corner.
Senovit Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 A tech trap punishes your opponent if they tech. This is a pseudo trap that forfeits 2k+ damage that only hits if your opponent isn't thinking when they tech. This pseudo trap is supposed to train your opponent not to mash so that you can black beat combo them later. Okay.
dragontamer Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 No, you shouldn't forfeit 2k damage. Thats just stupid. I'm not saying you execute this tech trap after say, 5A 6A 6C... you should instead execute this tech trap after say... (Crouching Opponent) 5A 5A 5A 5B 5C 2C 3C 22C 6C, which will NOT lead to the chain revolver BNB (too many proration points racked up), you can 50/50 on the tech trap because the air combo is not going to do too much damage anyway, especially due to the proration from starting with 5A. If you can go for the damage, you should go for the damage, especially if it leads to knockdown. However, depending on how you started the combo, you sometimes can't follow through with a BNB, and the air combo simply won't add much damage at all. This pseudo trap is supposed to train your opponent not to mash so that you can black beat combo them later. 6C is the weakest link in the chain. If you land 5D, chances are the whole chain revolver is going to land, leading to knockdown and extra damage. Nevetheless, I resign this point. Black Beats are risky, and are definitely not the main draw to a reset anyway. I will revise my argument to the following: It is a tradeoff between risk and reward. If the trap works, the opponent will take significantly more damage. 6C x4 -> Chain Revolver is about 3.5k and leads to knockdown. Lets have this as a comparison: * 2B 5B 5C 2C (one hit) 3C 22C 6C 5D 6B 5C 6B 5C 236D -- This is 2.2k Damage total. * 2B 5B 5C 2C (one hit) 3C 22C 6C BC 6C BC 5A (1.6k reset) 6C BC x4 Chain Revolver (3.8k damage) -- 5451 Damage total. So with only a risk of about 600 damage, you gain 3k+ damage. Here's another situation. Jin whiffs a 623C against you. He either doesn't have the heat for rapid cancel or something... so you... * 5C (CH) 5D 5C 6C 5C 6C 214A 2B 6C j.236C for 5.2k damage * 5C (CH) 5D 5C 6C 5C 6C 214A 2B 6C (4.9k dmg) (reset) 6C BC x4 Chain Revolver (3.8k damage) for a total of 8.7k damage heatless. Here, you risk 300 damage for 3.5k more damage and knockdown. Note: no need for the 5A in this example. Do remember: 6C is THE meatiest Normal that Noel has. It makes an ideal tech trap. And even if the opponent is barrier blocking in the air as he techs, 6C BC leaves you only at -4 frames, making it relatively safe. It certainly is not something you should do routinely: however, on select combo enders (especially, air combo enders, which gain knockdown upon reset), it becomes a very low risk for a very high reward. Or hell, how about this? 5A 6A 6C 5D (etc. etc.) 236D in the corner. 236D -> 6C -> 5A -> (reset) 6C 6C 6C 6C. You trade knockdown for a tech-trap in the corner. (although technically, I guess you can always (etc. etc.) 236D -> 6C j.236C for some damage. So... you risk whatever that would give you). Works on a large portion of the cast as well, and sets up the tech trap in the ideal corner. The 5A will help you beat neutral techs, while leaving the 5A out will let you easily beat backward and even forward techs in the corner if the opponent is low enough. ----------- The corner is definitely the best place for this. A backwards Tech can be air-grabed, or you can attempt the reset. Neutral techs still lose to the trap.
Senovit Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 I still can't believe you are calling a this a tech punish when it's clearly blockable even if they do tech.
dragontamer Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 I'm sorry I have only been playing fighting games seriously for a few months, and there is no centralized resource that defines "tech trap" anyway. As far as I can tell, people call Litchi's corner rape a "tech trap", even if it is blockable as they tech. The only unblockable one I can think of are meaty Bang's and Tager's command grabs. If I'm using the wrong terminology, sorry. There ain't a dictionary on this subject where I can learn this shit, at least on this site. You are welcome to lecture me on the "proper" meaning of Tech Trap if you wish, or maybe you can write the dictionary yourself.
Senovit Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 I think I'll pass. Keep doing whatever it is you're doing.
dragontamer Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 Bah, I had edits going up and down. >_< I'll just leave my post as it is now. Sorry about that.
TOKiMONSTA Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 I don't know what you're talking about but if you're playing against Litchi and you tech wrong, you will get hit. Usually trap implies that if they do this, you will win (them falling for your trap). It does not mean if they do this, they have the ability do this and that to get out of it but if they don't, you win. EDIT: BTW, the word you are looking for is a reset. Not a trap.
dragontamer Posted January 5, 2010 Posted January 5, 2010 Thanks. I'll go research Litchi's trap then. Here's why I'm confused: My understanding of it is that she just hits you with the staff (like a projectile meaty) while you tech. In the situation I described, If the opponent neutral techs, you hit them with a 6C meaty while they tech. Isn't that the same thing?
TOKiMONSTA Posted January 5, 2010 Posted January 5, 2010 Okay Litchi's trap is that she is able to punish any tech that is not neutral and if you neutral tech she has a high low mix-up waiting for you, and it is very threatening hence her much feared corner trap. The only real way to punish neutral tech in this game is command grab. Your trap, well, it's not a trap. They neutral tech and block. They could probably backwards tech out of 5A range and probably forward tech over Noel. You are just hoping they don't do it so you can get a reset on your combo meter/scaling. EDIT: I mean it's not a bad idea, it's just wrong terminology being used that's all. > <
dragontamer Posted January 6, 2010 Posted January 6, 2010 They could probably backwards tech out of 5A range and probably forward tech over Noel. Just a side note, 5A is the same startup speed as 6C, so they can't tech out of 6C BC 5A. They'll tech after the 5A. Okay Litchi's trap is that she is able to punish any tech that is not neutral How? If you are barrier blocking during a tech, then how is she hitting you?
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