[CS1] Bang vs Hakumen

[Dacidbro]

Gonna kick these off the ground, no time to keep waiting

Will update to look more professional later, when there's more info to throw around and I have time to waste with the cosmetics.

Part Approach

Wait, I can't use random nails?!

Hakumen has way too many perfect responses to empty nails.

The most simple, he can 6D your nail and have perfect invincibility all the way til he's active again. This means he either gets a free counter (Since you're obviously going to try to use random Dnails to approach or you put them in a blockstring, otherwise there's no reason) or gets away free (Empty A nails, B nails, C nails).

Another possibility is he read your nails from so far off he had time to cut them open into a projectile barrier. This means your nails were not only wasted, but you gave him free magatama and a way to stall for MORE magatama, and possibly got hurt in the process. Damn, that sucks.

A good remedy for this problem is if a Hakumen is quick enough on his toes to counter your TK Dnails (Which is really the only place this is a big problem), try, instead of TK Dnails after 2B, a simple jump cancel falling jC. Free counter hit combo if he 6D'd at what would have been your nails. Cool.

After that, he will be more hesitant to counter.

Another way to make Hakumen scared of the counter is your wonderful command grab. A couple powerful tick grab setups are d5A > 623C, d2A > 623C, d5A > 2A > 623C, and d2A > 2A > 623C. You get the idea. This way, if hakumen is mashing on his counter in futile attempt to save him, you'll just rape him with 2k + oki. And what's great is these tick grabs will beat out just about anything Hakumen can do, unless he reads it specifically and neutral jump falling j2C punishes you, which will hurt.

But wait, what if your opponent Hakumen is only countering on reaction?!

Yes, there are Hakumen's intelligent enough to IB > Counter blockstrings instead of mindlessly flail about throwing counters. Well, in this case, I'll take a very simple example. 5A 5B 2B, Hakumen can IB 5B and counter 2B. So what do you do? Mix that mofucker up, if you see him IB 5B, change it to; 5A 5B 6A, and you'll get a free counterhit and still look like you're going to do the move he wanted you to. Sweet!

Part Spacing

What do I do about AID j2C

So, you're trying to outspace the king of physical zoning, only parred by Tager. What can you do to make situations more advantageous for yourself than him?

Air to Air

As recommended by Daiandoh, air to air generally sucks. Here's why;

-jC will outrange everything you have

-j2C will beat out anything from below, and the lasting hitbox will go all the way until it hits you, beating out all your aerials more often than not

-j2A is a pretty decent air to air too, if timed right should at the very least trade with most of Bang's aerials

-His aerials will automatically cut your get-pressure-free-nails usually, so you can't even rely on that

So Hmm. Seems like don't try to match Hakumen air unless you're close, not don't try to match it at all. Bang's jA is the god of close range air combat, so if you're already nearby him in the air that's a pretty safe bet.

But what abou if you're above him in the air? Well, none of his normals will beat you out, but a Hotaru sure as hell will.. so if he reacts correctly you'll lose outright every time.

Okay, so only air-to-air combat Hakumen if you can force a proximity situation, and since you really can't do that very often at all, make air-air a non-priority entirely. Sounds smart.

Summary, captialize on specific air-air situations, but avoid it usually.

Ground to Air

Ground to Air is a pretty good scenario all around. You have a couple pretty solid anti airs for someone with as slow and predictable an approach as Hakumen; here's a couple.

5A

-Fantastic for if he's directly above you, at roughly your head level

-Combos very well

5B

-Quite good if he's low in the air but a bit in front of you

-Combos very well

2D/5D

-Shaky, a bit slow, but will beat out AID Attack clean (5D is less surefire, but has further horizontal range) every time

-Really only good to stuff an AID, so try not to use it for other scenarios

6C

-Alternate AID stuffer/Badly spaced descent punisher

-Tricky timing, but once you get it right, it's a very high power Air Unblockable, and if he does block it, you break a primer and get free pressure. Awesome.

-If you successfully combo it (6C > j623B > 5B > etc if very low, 6C > jB > j623B > 5B > etc if moderate, 6C > jC if high) you will either get extraordinary damage or at least wakeup oki.

Ashura

-Great for a wakeup Ground-Air scenario

-Careful, a smart Hakumen may empty jump to bait Ashura then flash buffer jD on reaction, and jD counter HURTS

-So, only use Ashura if you see him use an attack (You can buffer the 236236 and only actually super if he does something during the input; if nothing, block or grab or etc)

So, ground to air is pretty good. Just understand which option is best when, and realize none of them are surefire. You may have to block in some circumstances, don't be afraid. Hakumen's pressure's not that bad.

Air to Ground

Hakumen's primary air stuffer was removed (6A is no longer good for it), so his anti air became quite limited. A couple to watch for though;

2C

-Air unblockable, good vertical range

-Unsafe on barrier block, so block it

Jump Grab

-Will interrupt a badly designed jump cancel pressure

-Just something to note, especially since Hakumen's air grab HURTS

Jump Back jC/j2C

-Will stuff completely any obvious aerial approach

-Just don't be that obvious

-Puts Hakumen back towards the corner, so if a Hakumen really likes this answer let him troll himself until you have him all the way to the wall, then predict his escape route

5D

-Lasts an eternity now

-Not that dangerous, only does about 1K noncomboable IIRC

-Gives him 1 magatama and mild wakeup oki

-If you see the 5D, respect it, but it takes 7 or so frames to get out, so he has to predict your aerial

-Simple solution is if he's 5D happy empty jump in grab once

Part Blocking

Defense? Against Hakumen?

Believe it or not, Hakumen has a unique wakeup game. He doesn't really have amazing pressure, persay, but he has some interesting quirks.

On your wakeup, TK Tsubaki is one of Hakumen's highest payoff (with really high cost though) attacks. If you got jumpy and used 6D, you're gonna get raped all over town, so do NOT drive on wakeup. Just block, or down tech 5A is going to be a good call often. Just remember, he has a quick low that's free (3C) and a quick overhead that's 3 magatama (TK Tsubaki); if he has less than 3 magatama, block low and watch for the stomp. If he has 3 or more magatama, watch for both Zantetsu and Tsubaki. Rule of thumb, if he jumps on your wakeup, block high IMMEDIATELY.

What's that? You want to use your flashy new reversal super, Ashura? Don't, he can counter it on reaction, it's a waste of meter just to possibly get raped. His wakeup game isn't that scary, so just relax, you'll feel like an idiot if you blow 50 meter in an attempt to get out of Hakumen's really low key pressure just to get countered for 4k+.

I haven't played this matchup enough, help

[GenoWhirl]

Keep in mind that Hakumen can just go use 4c on your nails and create that annoying barrier thingy that even leads to combos on CH, so don't use Nails from far away to approach All I can help with

[Dacidbro]

Good call, I'll write a whole section on nails being bad for approach; there's actually a duality to nails being horrid approach.

[huey253]

well i can tell you one thing, this is one of bang's closer match ups. haku-men has alot of answer for bang shenanigans. tick command grabs seem to help alot in this match up when haku players get defensive. if your excution is good enough and haku starts jumping the tick command grab (if you somehow overuse it) you can always tk the aerial grab. ashura can be countered at superflash with haku's 2D, so be careful with that too. basically, nails in this match up is a very bad idea and good ole mixup is your friend.

[Dacidbro]

Haha, I was already writing up the tick grab section, I posted it before reading your's, Huey. Thanks though, you're spot on.

[huey253]

oh and avoid repeating blockstrings which many bang players seem to do. but thats more of a general thing than just haku. looks good for now, i'll tell you more when i get raped by spark on friday:yaaay:

[qwerty]

generally speaking, hakumen won't be countering nails at all. also, you assume several times in that post that a) hakumen is using counters on prediction (the opposite of how they should be used) and that b) he can't get a guaranteed counter during your blockstrings by instant blocking into them. also, i'm pretty sure hotaru will beat your command grab clean.

[huey253]

tk hotaru will wreck the command grab, its 3 magatama so they can't throw it all the time, BUT this leads back to the best and most effective strategy aganist Haku players, mix up. well believe or not many bang players will neutral jump throw dnails and air dash in to haku, but 6D will totally rape this, so thats why I think its important to state. hotaru is basically haku's super awesome jump cancelable dragon punch attack, and its much safer then tsubaki, so i think its important to also mention IAD aganist haku-men isn't very safe.

[Dacidbro]

generally speaking, hakumen won't be countering nails at all.

also, you assume several times in that post that a) hakumen is using counters on prediction (the opposite of how they should be used) and that b) he can't get a guaranteed counter during your blockstrings by instant blocking into them.

also, i'm pretty sure hotaru will beat your command grab clean.

All the best Japanese Hakumen 6D nails that I've seen

It's free perfect invincibility with a wide hitbox of counter as well.

Granted, slashing them is better, but that's not always available.

And you're correct, it is assumed that Hakumen is trying to predict things. However, 5A > 623C and 2A > 623C work well even on characters that don't have a counter, it just works better when that's an option. It forces Hakumen to want to jump out, which makes bang's lows work better.

And for sure, Hotaru will beat command grab clean. But that's meter, you can neutral jump falling aerial for the same thing at no risk of magatama. Usually a better choice, isn't it?

Thanks for coming over here, it's nice to have a Haku player's voicings.

[qwerty]

hotaru is only 2 bars of meter, and i can't think of a better option to punish you any time you use a mixup tool.

keep in mind that jump startup is still (i think) four frames, which means that four frames into the startup of your command grab/overhead/sweep, i'm already in the air and executing hotaru if i tk it.

and the best part is- even if you predict the hotaru, there's really not much you can do about it. even on ib, all i have to do is jump cancel and react to whatever you do. whereas if i jump and try to j.2C for example, you could predict that and anti air or air throw (which would probably land as a counter hit throw, since j.2C is pretty slow). but hotaru? good luck punishing it on whiff, block or ib.

you're on the right track in that this is a match bang is going win through mixup, yet you seem to be under the impression that his mixup is so strong that most players are just going to eat it because they don't want to risk getting punished for trying to beat it. if that's the case, you're half right- i sure as hell don't want to guess your mixup with a counter or something- but i don't have to when i can mash hotaru out at virtually no risk other than the 2 bars of meter it cost me.

as for nails; my advice for the time being is that when in doubt, save them for combos. unless you are absolutely sure your opponent is not expecting them, it's probably not a good idea to try zoning hakumen with them when all it takes is a well placed j.C to make you regret it. although i guess if the hakumen in question is being scrubby and airdashing towards you while you're in the air, it may not be a bad idea to use your nails as a punish if he's out of his j.C/air throw/hotaru range.

[Dacidbro]

Hmm. So the jump animation is 4 frames.. that probably means if a Hakumen is really dead set on TK Hotaru, you're only going to punish it if you avoid it or directly punish it (IE, 5D from too far to be hit, which is ludicrous, too high risk) So basically, Hotaru is just something you really need to respect. If Haku has 2 meter, be careful. *shrug* It doesn't have amazing horizontal, so it isn't the end of the world. Bang is good at fading off. Doesn't seem like there's too much to that. 4 frames is too slow to get out of most of Bang's blockstrings though, so if a hakumen seems really intent on TK Hotaru, he'll probably get auto-lowed if he tries during your string. Which means there's another great reason to go for 2A a lot, and then after making him scared of jumping, making him scared of being on the ground, and back and forth. Thanks, qwerty. Good info.

[huey253]

ehh, if its only 4 frames, i'm pretty sure he is getting out if he wants. and yeah for it only being two magatama, i'm sure haku-men players WILL be throwing it out to avoid pressure. oh and 2D punishes it so if you know its coming, use it

[Dacidbro]

2D, if it guard points Hotaru, shouldn't hit him before he JCancel>Barrier's.

[qwerty]

if ib's frame advantage on the ground hasn't changed from ct, you have a +5 advantage on ib. we'll know for sure soon enough though.

[kilabeep3]

Ok in this mixup game hotaru from hakumen will fuck you day up! if he has enough stars. He can just throw it out, So what do you do?? Bait that shit..dash in make it whiff and punish with a tick throw or go for mixup! Also PAY ATTENTION TO HIS METER!! Its the source of his power and the source of YOUR OPTIONS! If he has no stars there is a limited ammount of things he can do. If he has meter try to bait something or mixup with caution. Again hotaru and tsubaki really leads to hurt! Never underestimate hakumens damage output. You may have a lot of life to spare BUT this shouldn't mean you can dash in and come at him all willy nilly! He can kill you with just a few hits so be careful!

[Dacidbro]

if ib's frame advantage on the ground hasn't changed from ct, you have a +5 advantage on ib.

we'll know for sure soon enough though.

Well, +5 compared to what you'd normally be at.

[ShoMeYaMoves]

Hotaru is crazy safe, if I IB it I just backdash lol. Also Dacid, you listed ground command grab as doing 2.5k. j.A and command grab are god in this matchup, and to a lesser extent j.B.

[Dacidbro]

Is that not the right amount of damage? o: I aproximated. Lol.

[DaiAndOh]

Don't try to match Hakumen air-air. J.C, j. 2c, and j.2a will wreck that. 5a and 5b can be effective on the anti-air though in my experience.

[Dacidbro]

Hmm. Seems like you're saying don't try to match Hakumen air unless you're close, not don't try to match it at all. I know Bang's jA is the god of close range air combat, so if you're already nearby him, couldn't that work pretty well? And I would definitely agree that if Hakumen is above you, j2C and jB is going to wreck your shit up, but if you're above him in the air he doesn't really have any tool - Wait, forget it, Hotaru. Okay, so only air-to-air combat Hakumen if you can force a proximity situation, and since you really can't do that very often at all, make air-air a non-priority entirely. Sounds smart. Summary, captialize on specific air-air situations, but avoid it usually.

[Dacidbro]

Updated for spacing in Air Air, Ground Air and Air Ground. Feedbackssss please

[DaiAndOh]

6d for Hakumen against Bang's air-ground game? Not sure, I don't see it used that often. j.d though. It comes out on frame 1 after he does the move. (basically, you go for an air approach, he jumps then j.d.) And that WILL lead to about 3k+ depending on his star count. I want to say...but this part is more theory, that if Hakumen makes a careless mistake in his aerial zoning, you can jump into an airgrab/command grab for a quick punish.

[Dacidbro]

I thought I said 5D for haku against Bang's air-ground, that's what I meant. Massive range of activity, so it's great for stuffing aerials.

[ShoMeYaMoves]

Is that not the right amount of damage? o:

I aproximated. Lol.

623C does 2k, j.623C does 2.5k iirc.

Don't try to match Hakumen air-air. J.C, j. 2c, and j.2a will wreck that. 5a and 5b can be effective on the anti-air though in my experience.

As Dacid said, j.A wrecks Hakumen. Letting Hakumen win air to air without a fight is ignoring free damage, Hakumen will only win air to air if he's far from you and has time to bring out a big air move or if he baits you and does hotaru.

[Dacidbro]

Fixed that, thanks showme Got anything else you know about it, Show?