[CS1] Bang vs Litchi

[Dacidbro]

Gonna kick these off the ground, no time to keep waiting

Will update to look more professional later, when there's more info to throw around and I have time to waste with the cosmetics.

Part 0

Something I can relate to to show a couple things that go wrong; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC4f4R1NVBA

Noted mistakes you might encounter

1) Combo timing is different on Litchi than most, particularly with aerial double palm. Learn it or you will probably lose (like me)

2) If you empty jump to bait the shoryuken, make sure you block the moment you leave the ground or you will probably eat it (like me)

3) If you IB her staff, you seem to be stunned for 0-1 frame, so if she's over relying on her staff's stun and you IB it, you can usually slip in a 2D (With meter, better yet, Ashura) before her pressure aerial comes in. This is of course only a gimmick as she just needs to hit you low, but interesting to know.

4) In aerial combat, if you at least don't give her the CH jC, your risk goes down a lot. Whenever I ate the CH jC, it was 4k and corner pressure. If I didn't eat it counter but just got hit, it was like 700 damage and even.

Part A

Get in the zone

So, your spacing game is going to look something like this, at a complex metaphysical level;

Watch out for pokes and for the love of GOD dont give her the counter hit

Air to air combat is damn hard for Bang in this matchup, but he has a couple tricks. Empty jumps with block are your friend, as most commonly the range Litchi wants to be is out of your range to do anything if you're both in the air. Then, when you have outmaneuvered her in some significant way and she either whiffed or got scared, you can try your own attack (recommended, jA when close, airgrab when pointblank, j4C if above. jB is slower than jA and won't outrange anything she has, only use in rare scenarios). If she outmaneuvers you, just show off your excellent defense. Knowing how to deal with Litchi's offense is not optional, so practice the hell up, you have one of the most solid/high damage mix ups in the game against one of the worst defenses (Particularly in the corner, where you are always forced). You're in for a tough one.

Part B

Dat pressure game

6D Gimmick

Litchi has many, many pressure tricks. Most of the most dangerous ones involve her staff, and forcing you to block it for lengthy periods of time. Rule of thumb is if you have the option to 6D guard point the staff and litchi is already starting a mixup, you can usually 6D+C teleport and get out free, or if you feel risky for no reason you can try A teleport to hit her. This is actually Bang's most significant advantage compared to other characters in the defensive aspect of this matchup, as it forces Litchi to think twice about using her most powerful mixup tool. Once you have her wondering if it's safe or not to use her staff for pressure, you have her where you want her.

IMPORTANT NOTE; Her special supers like great wheel and the one that animates the staff are a different story. Chances are Litchi will have no qualms with waiting for a moment to see if you're going to 6D and react accordingly, so be really careful. Also, note that 6D is punishable as shit, so don't RELY on it. It's a gimmick, but you want Litchi to think it's better than it is if you're going to use it. Even a gimmick can demoralize someone if used correctly.

SECONDARY IMPORTANT NOTE; 6D Will NEVER replace good defense. Never, ever. You have to learn how to block, and well. Seriously.

D-Fence

Okay, so you're wondering, how do you block Litchi's quick highs and lows? First you need to get a feel for how her moves work. Honestly, I'm not qualified to write this part yet, it's coming soon. I'll put a couple things I understand out.

3C -> Guardpoint low

-Her 3C has so much blockstun that if you try to jump out afterwards, you will get free-low'd. Resist temptation.

Tsubame didn't even properly stuff crossup in CT and it's nerfed in CS. There's actually a spot directly above and slightly in front of Litchi that Tsubame doesn't hit, I once airdashed backwards into j.C on her wakeup and she Tsubame'd and it missed me entirely before I landed and punished lol. She's in lag for ages and tsubame allows an air tech right after getting hit if it isn't CH. No reason to bother with 2A on wakeup since it's actually less safe than the air; if you get hit by tsubame on the ground you'll be put out of commission much longer.

Awesome, thanks!

I haven't played this matchup enough, help

[DaiAndOh]

Litchi is one of my harder matchups. Ability to outpoke you, puts on the pressure and oki that we have trouble with, AND exceeds Bang's damage output. LK needs to be around more so I can learn some stuff.

[Dacidbro]

I'll ask Bang Camaro, he plays against Kennyon, a good litchi, at least a bit.

[ShoMeYaMoves]

Don't respect Tsubame anymore since it's garbage. If she neutral techs, empty jump cross her up so you don't get counter hit until you're sure she's not throwing tsubame then j.4B into w/e. Even if you fuck up and get hit by tsubame in the air, you still might punish her or at least get free pressure on staffless litchi if you aren't CH lol.

[Dacidbro]

It's that bad? O_o And can't they throw a Tsubame to directly counter cross up?

[ShoMeYaMoves]

Tsubame didn't even properly stuff crossup in CT and it's nerfed in CS. There's actually a spot directly above and slightly in front of Litchi that Tsubame doesn't hit, I once airdashed backwards into j.C on her wakeup and she Tsubame'd and it missed me entirely before I landed and punished lol. She's in lag for ages and tsubame allows an air tech right after getting hit if it isn't CH. No reason to bother with 2A on wakeup since it's actually less safe than the air; if you get hit by tsubame on the ground you'll be put out of commission much longer.

[Dacidbro]

That's some fantastic advice

[Lord Cruxis]

Tsubame didn't even properly stuff crossup in CT and it's nerfed in CS. There's actually a spot directly above and slightly in front of Litchi that Tsubame doesn't hit, I once airdashed backwards into j.C on her wakeup and she Tsubame'd and it missed me entirely before I landed and punished lol. She's in lag for ages and tsubame allows an air tech right after getting hit if it isn't CH. No reason to bother with 2A on wakeup since it's actually less safe than the air; if you get hit by tsubame on the ground you'll be put out of commission much longer.

Is Tsubame her DP? I'm confused. I never learned the names of her moves.

[Dacidbro]

Yes

[Dacidbro]

Updated

[SSMugen]

derp, after playing LK for a few matches this has to be the most annoying matchup EVER.

Is there any place in particular that I can ib a move and stuff it with 5A or at least jump out. It's hard to get hit randomly into the corner then spend the rest of the match trying to find holes to exploit only to get comboed into oki again >.>.

[huey253]

i don't think so,

tao vs bang as MUCH more annoying.

2A low profile still wrecks bang's shit sometimes

[RinHara5aki]

I (Dacid) will try to break this down for you soon. Having beaten LK in my set at EVO, I think I am justified to talk on the match a little bit. :v

But damn I need a lot of work on Litchi too.

[DaiAndOh]

I (Dacid) will try to break this down for you soon. Having beaten LK in my set at EVO, I think I am justified to talk on the match a little bit. :v

But damn I need a lot of work on Litchi too.

Please do. LK is def one of the few I'm legit scared to face in tournament right now....

[SSMugen]

I (Dacid) will try to break this down for you soon. Having beaten LK in my set at EVO, I think I am justified to talk on the match a little bit. :v

But damn I need a lot of work on Litchi too.

Sweet, thanks alot man.

[huey253]

lol some intresting things i noticed while playing LK

litchi command backdash can be canceled.

LK used (he got it from Shonen) a reset of daishurin where he purple grabs you in the air before it comes down, after a long litchi combo.

don't get hit by jC or 2C and burst if you do.

A nail approach is too good in this match up.

when bang gets in, its in his favor by a bit, litchi doesn't have a good way to get out pressure and her DP is terrible and cannot be RC'd. so its a guarenteed punish.

i'll think of more stuff later.

i went about even with LK in casuals at evo but we didn't play in tourneys

[DaiAndOh]

I saw in vids today, when Litchi's drop the combo that has them jump on the staff (that I've seen in vids and IRL many a time....) you can tech -> double jump airthrow.

[Reioumu]

LK just showed this to me... It's the gayest shit ever, but it's litchi specific when you do 5A 2AA.

Litchi can IB the first 2A and jump out before the 2nd one comes out.

WTF!?

You can still do 5A 2A 5B, but she is in the air for 5B.

They even gave her the shortest jump startup :/

[McArthur]

can bang safely use 2D as an anti air against litchi's airB? i find her airB annoying as hell in this matchup

[huey253]

she can jump cancel her jB i'm pretty sure, so unless its SUPER preemptive then no.

not having a anti air or reversal really makes this matchup tough

[crazycrackers]

LK just showed this to me... It's the gayest shit ever, but it's litchi specific when you do 5A 2AA.

Litchi can IB the first 2A and jump out before the 2nd one comes out.

WTF!?

You can still do 5A 2A 5B, but she is in the air for 5B.

They even gave her the shortest jump startup :/

Correct. Litchi's jump startup is 3f. Arakune used to match this but his jump startup has been increased in CS2 (tp 4f I believe), making litchi the only character with a 3f jump startup.

[McArthur]

she can jump cancel her jB i'm pretty sure, so unless its SUPER preemptive then no.

not having a anti air or reversal really makes this matchup tough

then would the best choices of approach be j.A's and j.4C's? or is there somethin else xD

[huey253]

most litchi players...

like mashing 2A or upback defense after ib (3 frame jump why not)

learning to beat both is the key to winning

the easiest way to beat both is by late chaining your normals (lol after 5B and 2B only) so that they'll get ch out 2A mash and get hit out of jump startup.

5A 2B is also good anti litchi mash too.

i'll post more shit when it comes to me

[PlasticChicken]

No one has a 3f jump in cs2.

[huey253]

No one has a 3f jump in cs2.

in the loke test it was still 3 frames, now that cs2 is out...