lxMetalSonicxl Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 Yeah you're right. If I learned one thing from this match-up, it's that picking Ragna = Free win. If only her special moves were more useful instead of being combo filler most of the time. So yeah, instant block everything and you might win. Bait dp as well and watch his meter. Run away after teched throws. Seems simple right. Also, I learned that charging is like a taunt that works. The opponent usually thinks they can get a free hit in. Instant air-dash back or a good backdash can make a 5B from Ragna whiff. Then you can dash in and 5B to start the offensive or if you were in the air, you can 214x.
Slayer Alucard Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 Only problem is that attempting to pressure Ragna is like trying to beat Nu at zoning lawl, pressuring Ragna is so difficult (slightly easier online if the guy isn't capable at IBing) that I end up almost always either going straight for a throw or 5B > 3C > air dash away >_>
STenSatsu Posted September 1, 2010 Posted September 1, 2010 Charge Canceling is the best way to bait a dp. Do poke>cc>poke a few times and then do same poke>cc>block and hope he was trying to IB dp so you get a punish. You can cc and block ib>ID off anything but 5a/2a/2b/2bb done correctly.
Kiba Posted September 24, 2010 Posted September 24, 2010 Need more help on this match up since it's one of my worse ones. Should throws be used more frequently in pressure considering using long strings and charge canceling aren't that effective? Is is also smarter to avoid using the second hit of moves too often and stick to one hit at a time like 5B>2B>5C to be punished less by IBing? Charge Canceling is the best way to bait a dp. Do poke>cc>poke a few times and then do same poke>cc>block and hope he was trying to IB dp so you get a punish. You can cc and block ib>ID off anything but 5a/2a/2b/2bb done correctly. Pretty much this but I'd recommend keeping your pressure short unless you're going in for a RC. So like 5B>2B>CC>Kara throw. Something like that y'know. If he IB's any of your normals you're most likely gonna get an inferno dividah to your face if you're doing anything else other than blocking, hence why the block strings should be kept short. I find out that most of the time I rarely DD against Ragna. If Ragna does Hell's fang, what would be the best way to tackle it? After that hit, they're pretty much gonna mixup, throw you, or use Inferno divider. I play too many Ragna's that do this, and usually I do not know what to do. Would 2a/5a work against a hell's fang with no followup? Or is it just better to block?
Cereal24 Posted September 24, 2010 Posted September 24, 2010 i'd say block and watch out for mixup, but anticipate a throw just in case. he will probably attempt to resume pressure.
Kiba Posted September 24, 2010 Posted September 24, 2010 I guess that's a good option, but giving Ragna too many oppurtunities to be on our case is the last thing we'd want to do. Hell's fang is -4 frames on block...I'm sure 5a/2a would stuff Ragna good. But another question. Would Tsubaki's 236236D be able to punish it?
Cereal24 Posted September 24, 2010 Posted September 24, 2010 i cant say first hand, it has some invicibility but not enough to be considered a good reversal super. dont forget it uses all your charges and doesnt even deal more damage than the C version unless you have 3+ charges. worst case scenario is that you both hit each other and he gets strangely stuck in the air for a few seconds.
Kiba Posted September 24, 2010 Posted September 24, 2010 So true. It was something I was looking to do with 2- charges, but I guess it really isn't one of the best options. Thanks for your help. Also we'd be lucky if that happened lol.
SonOfHeaven Posted December 11, 2010 Posted December 11, 2010 (edited) Wow, I played an good Ragna online and I got owned. First time someone just straight up handed it to me time and time again. I was on the defensive pretty much all the time. He'll rush me down with his block strings and I'll have to guess to see if there is an opening. Before I know it he has 50 heat and does TK GH in his strings and if I block, RC to continue the pressure. I try to combat his normals and obviously that won't work on the ground or in the air with his reach. When I attacked when there was an opening. IB>ID all day. Charge cancel isn't even that safe to do anyway. So what I want to know in his block strings are there any gaps to counter so I can start attacking him or get him off me? As well as with Ragna's 2D at max range. Can it be countered with everything from Tsubaki with no charges? Edited December 11, 2010 by SonOfHeaven
LordSpectreX Posted December 22, 2010 Posted December 22, 2010 To be honest? No, not really. Dash 5B is your best hope. That being said. It's your only hope. I hate this matchup more than Arakune Vs Lambda. I think it's the 5D. It has so much priority. *sigh*CS2CS2CS2*Sigh*
CrescentSaber Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 Wow, I played an good Ragna online and I got owned. First time someone just straight up handed it to me time and time again. I was on the defensive pretty much all the time. He'll rush me down with his block strings and I'll have to guess to see if there is an opening. Before I know it he has 50 heat and does TK GH in his strings and if I block, RC to continue the pressure. I try to combat his normals and obviously that won't work on the ground or in the air with his reach. When I attacked when there was an opening. IB>ID all day. Charge cancel isn't even that safe to do anyway. So what I want to know in his block strings are there any gaps to counter so I can start attacking him or get him off me? As well as with Ragna's 2D at max range. Can it be countered with everything from Tsubaki with no charges? I feel your pain. This matchup straight up sucks. And charge cancelling isn't that safe to do on him since all of his normals beat yours. If he anticipates a CC he just poke you with a 5B or 2A, 5A into combo. He doesn't even have to do IB~ID.
Kiba Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 Ragna's normals are unsafe. You need to try and IB-DP him. Either that, or get used to blocking alot.
Airk Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 Ragna's normals are unsafe. You need to try and IB-DP him. Either that, or get used to blocking alot. Kiba is spot on; You can IB->DP out of Ragna's blockstrings at pretty much any time. 5B has a large number of active frames, and doesn't gatling into anything with less than 12 frames of startup, so instant blocking this makes it DP fodder. Heck, if you're feeling gutsy, you could probably IB -> 22A for a more punishing counterhit, but that would be cutting it kinda close. Anyway, yeah, Ragna has issues if you can IB and reversal his stuff
Rhiya Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) Agreeing. If you look at the frame data, lots of Tsu's non-followup normals are actually /better/ on block than Ragna's. His shit is super unsafe -- which is why a massive part of his game involves burning meter on RC to make his mixup better and safer. The problem in this matchup is less about Ragna's pressure, and more about how there's this sweet spot for Ragna where everything he does stuffs everything you do. A Ragna who can space right in this matchup is fucking scary. Edited February 4, 2011 by Dusk Thanatos
a Lisianthus Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) ragna GH after any normal other than 2b/5a/2a beats both f1 DPs for free (into 4.5k+ dmg too).. close range HF will make DP whiff and he can punish your recovery 2b is the only practical guaranteed punish if you IB DP it, but it is only -10, very little time to confirm and DP. decent ragna will try to not use 5c at close range against someone who can IB - if they do, though, you can just DP it on ib.. of course, he can just get gimmicky and do 2b/5c->inferno divider for CH into 3k~.. it is better to not rely on this and just improve blocking/neutral because of how bad tsubaki DP is. even IB gold burst would be more practical. although, you can always jump out of 2b for free on IB Edited February 4, 2011 by a Lisianthus
Rhiya Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 That covers IB -> DP, but what about IB -> mash, etc.? Some of his moves theoretically have enough disadvantage to even poke out with something as slow as 5B. Better Ragnas probably won't exactly spam those moves without RC to cover, I admit, but the possibility is still there (-11 after 3C, for example).
a Lisianthus Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 ... only if they try resetting you from gimmicky places.. something like empty 5b/5c->dash 2a, sure you can IB mash out.. otherwise, as long as they're using gatling, you cannot mash out. just block until you see an opening to get out if her 5a was a frame faster she could punish 2b on IB 100% minus DP
Airk Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 ragna GH after any normal other than 2b/5a/2a beats both f1 DPs for free (into 4.5k+ dmg too).. close range HF will make DP whiff and he can punish your recovery Uh, yeah, if you get predictable, I suppose this might happen, but seriously, who's going to mix random GHs and HFs into their blockstrings in the hopes of catching you out of a DP? That's like putting a sign on your forehead that says 'hit me please'. it is better to not rely on this and just improve blocking/neutral because of how bad tsubaki DP is. even IB gold burst would be more practical. There's nothing wrong with her DP in these circumstances. A few frames of invulnerability are all you need to make a followup attack whiff and hit him out clean. Where Tsubaki's DP falls down is as a "yomi" tool - trying to just hit someone clean out of a move on a guess. If you INSTEAD guess what move is coming next with an IB, and then just follow through with the DP, you'll be fine because they're committed....and if you miss the IB, you'll just be in blockstun. Yes, this requires you to predict what they'll do, but Ragna doesn't actually have all that many options.
Kiba Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) it is better to not rely on this and just improve blocking/neutral because of how bad tsubaki DP is. even IB gold burst would be more practical. Might be forgetting about 623D. Full invincibility, more range. Plus regardless of whether it hits or whiffs you could always follow up with J214D to make it safer if you have another stock. Edited February 4, 2011 by Kiba
a Lisianthus Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 all i said was to not rely on IB-DP with tsubaki because of low reward and high risk/randomness. the random generic ragna players you fight won't intentionally bait it, but being randomed out by GH/HF can hurt. treat it as a gimmick to use sparingly, because really, IB DP is just that.. can't forget about the actual execution required for it as well, and how certain things just ruin attempts to IB and D DP is always unsafe - you are pretty much just wasting stock if you cancel to j214d j236d on whiff or block afaik. same deal with being beaten by GH/HF, although at max range both F1 dps will beat GH, and B/C DP beats it at mid range
Kiba Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 all i said was to not rely on IB-DP with tsubaki because of low reward and high risk/randomness. the random generic ragna players you fight won't intentionally bait it, but being randomed out by GH/HF can hurt. treat it as a gimmick to use sparingly, because really, IB DP is just that.. can't forget about the actual execution required for it as well, and how certain things just ruin attempts to IB and D DP is always unsafe - you are pretty much just wasting stock if you cancel to j214d j236d on whiff or block afaik. same deal with being beaten by GH/HF, although at max range both F1 dps will beat GH, and B/C DP beats it at mid range Although what you're saying is true, would you rather use 623D and get 4k your or attempt to make it a little safer? I'm not saying you have to do it all the time. Its' basically just your way of showing that Tsubaki is not supposed to be totally disrespected, even though her DP isn't that good. Also, Ragna shouldn't be doing HF on block anyway, unless it's likely that they'll RC.
CrescentSaber Posted February 4, 2011 Posted February 4, 2011 623D is always a good option if you have a charge available. So in other words the best and pretty much only ways to punish him and/or break his pressure strings is by Ibing huh? But what about those Ragna's that like to play it safe? Those are the ones that give me the most trouble.
Recommended Posts