BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[Irrsinn]

I'm happy with this tier list coz it's better than Ct's one

BBC(T/S):

lol

[Dacidbro]

I thought BK was neutral after flash? o:

Fastest thing you can do after that should be about 5 frames, so your opponent has to precommit to an attack that has 5 frames recovery after your flash. So I guess it's kiiind of a reversal, just not very good at it and you do risk a lot (50 meter, health drain; CRAZY reward )

Also; if you are happy with Litchi but not Bang and Ragna, you have never seen someone use her correctly. Point blank. Literally that simple.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

ATG: I think there's something that you miss.

While it's true that Nu and Rachel are zoning based chars (Arakune wut?!), but I don't think Rachel's overall awesomeness in CT is because of that. She was also nice rushing down, as long as she had enough Sylpheed (most of the time ). Her zoning capabilities are good, but the rest of her stuff is better.

... and that's why I don't quite like her in CS. Her zoning wasn't improved (THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT), slower Sylpheed regen doesn't let her rushdown like before and her stuff has horrible prorating now because of how damage scaling works now

Gawd, I wish they consider that for rebalance in CS. Either they make her a very good zoning char, or they give her a bit better tools to deal damage.

[Dacidbro]

They don't want a repeat "Zoning character god tier" but there are certainly some things they can do. Make her wind regen better, give her a little more damage, give her some better defensive options; any one of these three would improve her a lot, without going too far.

[SuperKawaiiDesu]

I thought BK was neutral after flash? o:

Fastest thing you can do after that should be about 5 frames, so your opponent has to precommit to an attack that has 5 frames recovery after your flash. So I guess it's kiiind of a reversal, just not very good at it and you do risk a lot (50 meter, health drain; CRAZY reward )

Also; if you are happy with Litchi but not Bang and Ragna, you have never seen someone use her correctly. Point blank. Literally that simple.

Using it to make an attack whiff > prevent RC, punish HARD

Allows you to scare your opponent into not doing anything, especially fucking houtenjin after 5B 5C in CS, super flash buffer blood kain like a bitch.

Puts you at neutral while attempting to bait an attack, its good! its not GDLK but it has its uses when used properly with dat yomi.

When do you not have 50 meter as ragna anyways. And you have ID if you see them starting up an attack during flash

[Dacidbro]

Using it to make an attack whiff > prevent RC, punish HARD

Allows you to scare your opponent into not doing anything, especially fucking houtenjin after 5B 5C in CS, super flash buffer blood kain like a bitch.

Puts you at neutral while attempting to bait an attack, its good! its not GDLK but it has its uses when used properly with dat yomi.

When do you not have 50 meter as ragna anyways. And you have ID if you see them starting up an attack during flash

Yeah, I'll definitely give you that one; That is a great tool to make Hazama a bit more nervous about Hotenjin. But simultaneously, as soon as Hazama knows you're trying to bait the flash, he has an even easier out; don't push buttons and jump/attack out. Lol.

I'd say it's decent, but Ragna usually has better options.

[ATGMantenbo]

"(Arakune wut?!)" Arakune is

well from my experience(Rachel mains; plz correct me if I'm wrong): her zoning may not be as great as Nu's but it is good. Her rushdown is mostly safe; I tried IB'ing then dp but no luck. The frog + you're knocked down = no reversal....etc

I just brought Nu as an example to compare with CS top tiers.. let's bring this discussion back on CS.

yes, I hope they buff Rachel for she is over nerfed.

[Alex073088]

I'm fine with this list not because I main litchi or anything, but Bang has to take risks to deal damage as well as litchi... they have to get close to deal damage. By taking risks, I mean they might get a reversal while they are pressuring the opponent. Ragna is no different than bang and litchi in terms of taking risks.

when we go back to CT, the top tiers were zoning characters and that is a disaster in fighting games IMO.

look at Nu for instance, endless array of swords and she takes zero risks, even if you IB or Barrier.. it's just no use.

It's not like I am getting destroyed by Nus or anything, but I work really really hard to get in and deal damage while NU is safely spamming D's. Rachel is no different with the wind and Lolis(not sure bout spelling).

Bottom line, game is much more balanced and I agree that Bang and Litchi need nerfs in some areas, but still I'm really happy with this tier list(again not because I main Litchi)

As litchi you dont have to take risk, atleast when fighting characters like rachel who have no real answer for you spamming j.b or j.c..For you having the range to harass us with 6b for a nice counter combo almost fullscreen, and when things get tough a huge high jump to saftey and throw the rod inorder to get back in. There moves that litchi has that keep spinning even after you have hit her. A dp(way to much guard stun and you get a fat combo) that forces us to use wind just to land a fork punish midscreen, then use another wind just to land a punish(other characters do not need a wind bar to damage that dp). And a broken super all green which by the way you could use on nu to get in as well. the only saving grace is that without the staff things become much less harder for us as long as we have you blocking or under a frog.

They nerfed rachel to where as she stands no chance against litchi what-so-ever, in the beginning of the match in both version you have the advantage and as a player its are job to find away out saftely. And also dont forget we had to deal with nu as well and the match probabdly was harder for us then it was for you. now the match is worst in cs for rachel. All in all the game is still unbalanced maybe even more so in cs. It may not be as free for ragna litchi and bang as it was for arakune and nu but you still wont have to worry about a dp when going against the former three top tiers. You can just freely rape them.

lol at u hating litchi.

ok litchi can launch the staff at you; if it's 5d set you simply do nothing or wait then jump; if it 2d set, just jump.... easy to dodge

Nu can spam swords at you; if it's 5d jump and eat other swords; it it's 6d, dash in and eat more swords ( you have to have fast reflexes to dodge and get in.. sure u know that)

Litchi's pressure has too many gaps in it and if you are skilled enough to instant block, litchi is gonna have trouble pressuring you.

Nu's sword pressure has no gaps(small ones)... you shut up and eat it.

Litchi sometimes relies on SPACING

Nu ultimately relies on zoning unless she's stupid enough to get close

you didn't get my point, this tier list is million times more balanced than CT's

note: I'm using Nu as an example

i will agree that there are pressure gaps within ct litchi's pressure and that it should have been corrected however look at what you do have. long normals, good counter combos, very good distortion drives that allow you to control the entire momentum of the match. For those that dont know how to escape is, incredibly good corner lockdown. Really high jump, and very good air normals. the ability to control alot of space. An overpowered dp.

Now in cs you have it all , a character shouldnt have it all or other characters shouldnt have been nerfed to where the game becomes incredibly unenjoyable when faced up against almost the entire cast. Tager didnt have it this bad.

"(Arakune wut?!)" Arakune is

well from my experience(Rachel mains; plz correct me if I'm wrong): her zoning may not be as great as Nu's but it is good. Her rushdown is mostly safe; I tried IB'ing then dp but no luck. The frog + you're knocked down = no reversal....etc

I just brought Nu as an example to compare with CS top tiers.. let's bring this discussion back on CS.

yes, I hope they buff Rachel for she is over nerfed.

There's a big fat huge difference between rachel's zoning, and nu's. Rachel requires the space time and activation for her zoning to be effective and she does not have the mobility that nu has in order to freely set this up.

NU can zone you when ever she wants to without restrictions and has the mobilty to continue to zone without fear, she is also not restricted by a wind guage. And has amazing answers for litchi j.b and j.c spammers.

Your dp kills the frog and it sucks big time, do not dp after knockdown frog if rachel has her pumpkin out. and the staff doesnt touch her after you dp.

Remember rachel vs litchi is even in ct, it is now 6.5 to 3.5 litchi favor for pretty fucked up reason ^.^

[Alex073088]

TO add also i really really do not agree with hakumen vs rachel in cs match-up ratio, i really think its more close to 6.0 to 4.0 or 6.5 to 3.5 not 55 to 45. I havent even seen a rachel beat hakumen yet in any vid and when i look at how she gets beat i just sigh deeply to myself. You cannot zone hakumen, rush him down, get out of his pressure, damage him or anything all u can do is run away.

[Dacidbro]

Well, Alex, as usual your posts are biased and nearly unintelligible, but hey, you do bring up some valid points.

CS Litchi doesn't have to take risks, her lockdown is absolutely amazing, and her abare/damage is better than any.

[ATGMantenbo]

The matchup between Litchi and Rachel in CT is 50:50.. The better player wins in other words... you made the mathup sound like Tagar vs Carl... dude, you have options against litchi, you're not completely defenseless in that matchup. I understand Rachel players are used to having the upper hand in almost all matchups and they whine when it comes to an even matchup in CT... bit funny lol

In CS, the game is still unbalanced but they made a good progress fixing stuff from CT. And I really feel sorry for all the Rachel players and I hope they buff her in the rebalancing patch.

" All in all the game is still unbalanced maybe even more so in cs" < this only applies to you.. think in terms of all characters not only your character.

" overpowered dp " I think terminology here is incorrect, in CT: this is one of the main ways to combo and combos off dp lead dmg between 2k and 2.5k which is not very rewarding taking the risks into account and plz consider it's a very unsafe dp coz litchi can't RC if dp is blocked. in CS: pretty much same thing except you can't combo off dp.

there are pressure gaps in ct and CS litchi.

Rachel zoning may not be as great as Nu's but it is good << still stands...not GREAT but good

Bottom line, Balancing is better than what it was in CT

[ATGMantenbo]

Well, Alex, as usual your posts are biased and nearly unintelligible, but hey, you do bring up some valid points.

CS Litchi doesn't have to take risks, her lockdown is absolutely amazing, and her abare/damage is better than any.

CS Litchi takes risks( when you say she doesn't have to take risks, you remind me of Nu; She does take risks but let's say she takes less risks than other characters) and IBing creates huge problems for her pressure strings (also true with a lot of the cast )

her knockdown IN THE CORNER is amazing... agree

Her dmg is great and Bang is no less..and yeah her 5A doesn't lead to 4~5k dmg... agree

[Dacidbro]

I didn't say Bang wasn't ridiculous, ever.

Her knockdown ANYWHERE leads to CORNER pressure, if you use correct sophisticated combos. Agree.

Her risks are negligible compared to non S tier cast. Agree.

Oh, and just to put an even bigger hole in your non-argument, Lord Knight hit me with a 4k+ METERLESS combo off 5A that ended in the corner. If anything, you should argue that her 5A whiffs low profile, unlike Bang's, and that her pressure options off 5A are less intimidating.

[Gil]

Not all Rachel players whine and to be fair, the gap between the bottom and top isn't that much better in CS. Rachel, Tager, Tsubaki have pretty bad match-ups with the top three. It isn't Nu vs Tager in CT or Carl vs Rachel in CT, but is 65-35 that much different?

[Kyosuke Kagami]

TO add also i really really do not agree with hakumen vs rachel in cs match-up ratio, i really think its more close to 6.0 to 4.0 or 6.5 to 3.5 not 55 to 45. I havent even seen a rachel beat hakumen yet in any vid and when i look at how she gets beat i just sigh deeply to myself. You cannot zone hakumen, rush him down, get out of his pressure, damage him or anything all u can do is run away.

What the fuck.

It's true that Hakumen doesn't prorate like crazy, his black holes give him a lot of help with those projectile spammers (and even shit like Boobie Lady's SUBAME GAY SHEE) and he'll overall better and safer to play... but I wouldn't put him the way you described him. He still has limited mobility and highly punishable if she messed up his shit.

[Dacidbro]

Alex's posts. Biased, nearly unintelligible. Nothing new.

[ATGMantenbo]

ahh her COMBOS don't always lead to the corner but 75% of the time yes.. her knockdown ANYWHERE doesn't always lead to corner pressure unless u got meter to push them to the corner.. agreed

Risks are not negligible unless you're playing against scrubs.. I played CS litchi and even made a video combo and watched dozens of her matches and found many holes in her pressure strings...

Litchi is ridiculous.. I can't deny that

my point was that CS tops are easier to handle than CT tops or in other words not as ridiculous , and the balancing is great but we need more balancing.

I do not enjoy playing top tiers for I feel cheap but I like Litchi, so I'm so waiting for the rebalancing patch

[ATGMantenbo]

Not all Rachel players whine and to be fair, the gap between the bottom and top isn't that much better in CS. Rachel, Tager, Tsubaki have pretty bad match-ups with the top three. It isn't Nu vs Tager in CT or Carl vs Rachel in CT, but is 65-35 that much different?

Really sorry I generalized that. All of the Rachel players I fought sent me msgs of whining or even on the mic and some did it here like you just saw.. except you.. respect to you my friend

well what I said was my opinion of how the tier list progressed. still there are unfair matchups and rachel is in CS, just like Tagar was in CT. but but they made a step in the right direction in terms of balancing and let's hope the rebalancing patch does more good

[Matt]

I didn't say Bang wasn't ridiculous, ever.

Bang. Ridiculous. LOLOLOLOLOL.

It's funny that people make Bang out to be this Godlike, "ridiculous" character when he's not. If that tierlist is trustworthy, he has four 6.5 matchups, two 6.0 matchups and the rest are nearly even. How exactly is that ridiculous?

Edit: Also, what the hell is up with all these ellipses? I mean seriously, every other post has them.

[Gil]

Really sorry I generalized that. All of the Rachel players I fought sent me msgs of whining or even on the mic and some did it here like you just saw.. except you.. respect to you my friend

well what I said was my opinion of how the tier list progressed. still there are unfair matchups and rachel is in CS, just like Tagar was in CT. but but they made a step in the right direction in terms of balancing and let's hope the rebalancing patch does more good

Nah, no worries, I knew what you meant. xD I've had the same thing in mirror matches, so it happens.

Yeah, pretty much. Aside from the gap between the bottom and the top, it's getting there. They just need to push the bottom few higher and well, yeah...Though that's a pipe dream.

[Dacidbro]

Absolutely no bad match ups and a lot of "should win 2/3 matches if same skill" is kind of ludicrous.

Granted, people in America make the top tier of this game out to be an impassable wall for the sake of their egos (If I can't win because of the matchup, it's never damaging to my rep); Now, if you're playing online, some of these matchups are going to be really damn near unwinnable, because IBing successfully plays a huge factor in balancing out the characters. But otherwise, yeah, a player with better fundamentals should win quite often. Kaqn is a good example of a player who plays fundamentally phenomenally and as a result is successful with many characters.

[ZONG_one]

I'm not going to quote him, but that alex guy...

Seriously? You can't get out of Hakumen's pressure? o.O

What game are you playing?

(And don't say Rachel can't, because she has a much easier time getting out than quite a few characters.)

[Justice7541]

Absolutely no bad match ups and a lot of "should win 2/3 matches if same skill" is kind of ludicrous.

Even if you're not as good as your opponent you'll probably still win 2/3 if you play Bang. He really is that easy now. I played him in CT so my opinion is authoritative and shit.

[Alex073088]

The matchup between Litchi and Rachel in CT is 50:50.. The better player wins in other words... you made the mathup sound like Tagar vs Carl... dude, you have options against litchi, you're not completely defenseless in that matchup. I understand Rachel players are used to having the upper hand in almost all matchups and they whine when it comes to an even matchup in CT... bit funny lol

In CS, the game is still unbalanced but they made a good progress fixing stuff from CT. And I really feel sorry for all the Rachel players and I hope they buff her in the rebalancing patch.

" All in all the game is still unbalanced maybe even more so in cs" < this only applies to you.. think in terms of all characters not only your character.

" overpowered dp " I think terminology here is incorrect, in CT: this is one of the main ways to combo and combos off dp lead dmg between 2k and 2.5k which is not very rewarding taking the risks into account and plz consider it's a very unsafe dp coz litchi can't RC if dp is blocked. in CS: pretty much same thing except you can't combo off dp.

there are pressure gaps in ct and CS litchi.

Rachel zoning may not be as great as Nu's but it is good << still stands...not GREAT but good

Bottom line, Balancing is better than what it was in CT

its not that black and white as the better player wins i would say in that match with, two players at high levels, using polar opposite character styles, the winner would be determine on what actually goes on during that match.

on rachel tager and carl you got 3k off that dp, and rachel being a character who has no ways out of pressure execpt to wait for a mistake or attempt something risky and punishable after you 3k to 3.5k combo knocks us down at your feet is a bit overpowered. Its not just that though, punishing that dp is no walk in the park. i feel bad for tager and carl or even hakumen who probadly have a even worst time trying to punish that dp mid-screen on block.

Though im incredibly thankful that litchi no longer gets a combo off it. that in itself feels so good.

And i never said that rachel was defenseless in this match, but you made it seem as though the top three which includes rachel just had it so easy when playing against litchi when that isnt the case. You made it seem that zoning was such a powerful strategy all by itself, with rachel and nu when neither character can do this if you took advantage of there position from you from the start of the match. There not full screen then, they are incredibly close to you. neither character can fight at all when you are forcing your pole on them, and litchi out a few character has options inside both zoning espically rachels.Remember all green.

CS Litchi takes risks( when you say she doesn't have to take risks, you remind me of Nu; She does take risks but let's say she takes less risks than other characters) and IBing creates huge problems for her pressure strings (also true with a lot of the cast )

her knockdown IN THE CORNER is amazing... agree

Her dmg is great and Bang is no less..and yeah her 5A doesn't lead to 4~5k dmg... agree

dude there is no risk in jumping all over the place and j.b'ing. ill agree on less risk then others way less. In the beginning of almost every match in ct, rachels first move is crucial as to whether you will have the upperhand or be doomed to have to escape your opponents range and pressure strings. Versus litchi, for rachel i think its better to wait and see what litchi does.

ahh her COMBOS don't always lead to the corner but 75% of the time yes.. her knockdown ANYWHERE doesn't always lead to corner pressure unless u got meter to push them to the corner.. agreed

Risks are not negligible unless you're playing against scrubs.. I played CS litchi and even made a video combo and watched dozens of her matches and found many holes in her pressure strings...

Litchi is ridiculous.. I can't deny that

my point was that CS tops are easier to handle than CT tops or in other words not as ridiculous , and the balancing is great but we need more balancing.

I do not enjoy playing top tiers for I feel cheap but I like Litchi, so I'm so waiting for the rebalancing patch

Ill agree that the cs tops are easier to fight then ct tops, for certain characters in the game. However the top three can easyly take advantage of the former ct top three's primary weakness of having no options out of pressure from the start of the match.

Really sorry I generalized that. All of the Rachel players I fought sent me msgs of whining or even on the mic and some did it here like you just saw.. except you.. respect to you my friend

well what I said was my opinion of how the tier list progressed. still there are unfair matchups and rachel is in CS, just like Tagar was in CT. but but they made a step in the right direction in terms of balancing and let's hope the rebalancing patch does more good

Yup just like everyone whinned about tager, and whinned about the zoning characters. Players who took all that time to learn a hard character to play have the right to complain as well. You were just complaining about nu!

Bang. Ridiculous. LOLOLOLOLOL.

It's funny that people make Bang out to be this Godlike, "ridiculous" character when he's not. If that tierlist is trustworthy, he has four 6.5 matchups, two 6.0 matchups and the rest are nearly even. How exactly is that ridiculous?

Edit: Also, what the hell is up with all these ellipses? I mean seriously, every other post has them.

I agree i really dont think bang is that bad, i think people are over exaggerating. he needed buffs, i think that is cs bang was in ct he probadly wouldnt even be better then jin on the tier list side of things. however litchi, oh shit!~.hakumen oh shit.

I'm not going to quote him, but that alex guy...

Seriously? You can't get out of Hakumen's pressure? o.O

What game are you playing?

(And don't say Rachel can't, because she has a much easier time getting out than quite a few characters.)

Okay, i guess i could wind myself upward and hopefully when i land hakumen wont be already airdashing at me. Anyway, hakumen is one of those characters that up close and rachel is on the defense even in ct you have no options but to run away and summon something. Do you even play rachel? do i need to bring some hakumen vs rachel vids to show what why that match-up should be higher for hakumen?

[Dacidbro]

I don't know, maybe there's some confusion here, so I'm going to clear things up..

I personally believe Bang is S tier and a good couple steps above most of the cast. I think he's quite easy to play, and I completely support the list saying no bad matchups and many 6-4 and 6.5-3.5 . I have personally experienced this. Bang is crazy. His 5A is unreasonable. His air-grab nonsense is unbelievable, but hey, at least other people's air grabs are worse (Ara 100% fever, Litchi 4.5k+ nonmeter corner oki).

His pressure is so good autopilot that when you actually do add intelligent decisions to it it becomes damn near unstoppable, especially if you punish bursts. There are too many ways to mix people up safely, and his Dnails are fucking stupid.

All that said, I love the character, and I'm not sorry he's this good. Suffering through CT's imbalanced top tier was bad, it's Bang's turn to be good as they (badly) seek equilibrium. Here's hoping they find it.

PS, Zong knows more about Rachel than you, like most people.