BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[Dacidbro]

The properties of my air throw were specifically buffed. Now I can combo it for 5k damage, meterless or not, in the corner. That's a 3k and oki buff to my air throw. I would consider that a direct improvement.

[Irrsinn]

Arakune's airgrab got nerfed, in CT you could do 4k out of an airgrab from anywhere into recurse, now you only get full curse IF you're close enough to the ground and the opp. doesn't burst, it only deals 1.8k-2k (I don't remember) and you can't get instant recurse, don't you think thats a nerf?

You're making it sound like his airgrab got better (protip: it didn't) just because it can lead to situational high damaging combos, thats if the damn thing hits with at least 60%+ of the curse meter.

You're just blowing things out of proportion, you're saying that people don't get how good Arakune's stuff is and that you know his weaknessess, but when I said that Tager's 720 is a pretty awesome move you start giving me shit about how bad a character he is.

[Dacidbro]

No, because now you get fever mode from it, which is infinitely more than curse.

[Irrsinn]

Wich is harder to get, before you could get cursed from a single:

• 5D
  
• 2D
  
• 6D
  
• jD
  
• cloud
  
• a blocked cloud
  
• Air super
  

And 4 of those lead to 5-6k damage in CT, also you could use other moves as starters to get those in and deal at least a good 4k damage (2A, air grab, grab, laser super, 6A, etc.) and lets not forget that you can use those between combos too to reset the curse meter too.

If you know how shitty he is precurse, and how good he is in curse, why don't just leave him like that? people will be bitching about him if they give him better normals but lower his damage in fever mode just because it'll be easier to get curse, he's like Eddie, either he's good, or he's terribad (lolol Slash).

[Dacidbro]

You just jumped the tracks, logically. We were talking about air grab giving you fever being a nerf, then you switched to saying "YO DUDE SINGLE HIT CURSE WAS WORSE". I KNOW that. That's why he was bullshit in CT, he gave my character the worst time of any but Tager. I know how bad it was.

I'm saying his character design is still stupid, but it's closer to the mark this time. He just needs 3 or 4 slight changes for the worse, and a universal change for the better.

[Irrsinn]

I don't know, I think Arakune's interesting enough, I like this "being shitty and then becoming the very best" kind of gameplay, its like a... metamorphosis you could say

get it, because of the bugs

. Reminds me of Zappa, but he wasn't as shit before he gets Raou.

[Dacidbro]

Yeah, but instead of being exciting, it's "Oh, another air grab". I am actually arguing in FAVOR of what you want, you just forgot to pay attention to what I type.

[mAc Chaos]

Considering that CT Arakune was hilariously broken, you shouldn't be comparing him to CT and being like, "Well, he's not like THAT so it's OK." You should look at it compared to the rest of the cast.

[Dacidbro]

I agree. So when something is actually worse than a mechanic he had in CT (Air grab > Fever is greater than Air grab > Curse), it should raise a flag, even if it's only one aspect.

But if we're looking at CS, no other character has (feasible, or easily applicable) one shot kills. That's another red flag, which would be mitigated if fever was hard to reach, but oh, the other problem of 100% curse combos comes in now. So he revolves primarily around 4 or so moves, instead of a full arsenal.

[Alex073088]

What were you expecting, all this thread ever is is the same clueless people posting things they don't know about like they're fact, later to be proven wrong and be ABSOLUTELY STUNNED.

dude what would you suggest they do? We are all just happy that its not ct arakune, who could curse you off some many things incredibly easy and combo off it. arakune is likely to get one curse once per round in cs, shouldnt it really really count when he builds the meter and finally hits you with it. Before curse he doesnt have anything what so ever, he has good air normals but there are some really good anti airs in cs that make it hard to always remain in the sky. air grabs are also tech-able.

[Dacidbro]

He doesn't BUILD it. He hits you once, with the same moves every time, hoping that you are already committed. Again, the only way I see Ara win in Japan is hitting air grabs, and it happens pretty much every round.

You know what, how many times do I have to repeat myself? This is ridiculous. For the last time, and in the future I'll just quote from here if it comes up again;

1) Ara is not over powered in my eyes.

2) Ara's defense is sub par and simple

3) Ara's offense is poorly designed, revolving around 3 or so choke points that are IMMENSELY powerful, and nearly ignoring the rest of his moves completely.

4) Therefore, Ara's offense is stupid, and needs to be tweaked, so that the 3 or so choke points are not the entire focus of every single Ara player. THIS IS NOT ASKING FOR A NERF. This is asking for his offense to make sense, and not be "lol hit ya 7 frm airgrab agn"

5) Conclusion, they almost have Ara right, they just need to tweak his normals to be all on the same level, so that he will be interesting instead of predictable yet simultaneously constantly massive risk.

[smooshman]

He doesn't BUILD it. He hits you once, with the same moves every time, hoping that you are already committed. Again, the only way I see Ara win in Japan is hitting air grabs, and it happens pretty much every round.

You know what, how many times do I have to repeat myself? This is ridiculous. For the last time, and in the future I'll just quote from here if it comes up again;

1) Ara is not over powered in my eyes.

2) Ara's defense is sub par and simple

3) Ara's offense is poorly designed, revolving around 3 or so choke points that are IMMENSELY powerful, and nearly ignoring the rest of his moves completely.

4) Therefore, Ara's offense is stupid, and needs to be tweaked, so that the 3 or so choke points are not the entire focus of every single Ara player. THIS IS NOT ASKING FOR A NERF. This is asking for his offense to make sense, and not be "lol hit ya 7 frm airgrab agn"

5) Conclusion, they almost have Ara right, they just need to tweak his normals to be all on the same level, so that he will be interesting instead of predictable yet simultaneously constantly massive risk.

EDIT: wow total misread. I failed:v:

[Skye]

I want 5a to chain to 5d on CH.

[Dacidbro]

isn't that what every character does?

that's like saying Jin keeps freezing me with the same moves, Ragna keeps draining my life with the same moves, Hazama/λ keep long range shanking me with the same moves, etc.

and as far as Arakune being overpowered (lolwut):he has no health, and is absolute shit with out fever. If he were broken then he would be above Bang.

1) Ara is not over powered in my eyes.

2) Ara's defense is sub par and simple

3) Ara's offense is poorly designed, revolving around 3 or so choke points that are IMMENSELY powerful, and nearly ignoring the rest of his moves completely.

4) Therefore, Ara's offense is stupid, and needs to be tweaked, so that the 3 or so choke points are not the entire focus of every single Ara player. THIS IS NOT ASKING FOR A NERF. This is asking for his offense to make sense, and not be "lol hit ya 7 frm airgrab agn"

5) Conclusion, they almost have Ara right, they just need to tweak his normals to be all on the same level, so that he will be interesting instead of predictable yet simultaneously constantly massive risk.

[toanenadiz]

isn't that what every character does?

that's like saying Jin keeps freezing me with the same moves, Ragna keeps draining my life with the same moves, Hazama/λ keep long range shanking me with the same moves, etc.

and as far as Arakune being overpowered (lolwut):he has no health, and is absolute shit with out fever. If he were broken then he would be above Bang.

I think Dacidbro was trying to point out that Arakune's same moves do massively more damage than the other moves characters use. And Dacidbro said that Arakune wasn't overpowered in his first statement.

I actually could care less since I main Lambda and she has a good match-up vs Arakune but if your changes were to happen Dacidbro, would it actually make the Arakune vs Lambda match-up more even? How one-sided that match-up is irks me for some reason.

[smooshman]

1) Ara is not over powered in my eyes.

2) Ara's defense is sub par and simple

3) Ara's offense is poorly designed, revolving around 3 or so choke points that are IMMENSELY powerful, and nearly ignoring the rest of his moves completely.

4) Therefore, Ara's offense is stupid, and needs to be tweaked, so that the 3 or so choke points are not the entire focus of every single Ara player. THIS IS NOT ASKING FOR A NERF. This is asking for his offense to make sense, and not be "lol hit ya 7 frm airgrab agn"

5) Conclusion, they almost have Ara right, they just need to tweak his normals to be all on the same level, so that he will be interesting instead of predictable yet simultaneously constantly massive risk.

goddamn my cursory reading!

[Dacidbro]

Hey this is working better than I expected

Theoretically, yes, toe, since the several things Ara relies on (Air grab, anti air, etc) generally get ripped to pieces by even mid-range zoning characters, so much more so by Lambda's full screen zoning/cloud prevention. With better normals all around, he should theroetically be more able to keep pressure once begun.

[ShinsoBEAM]

Okay the frame break time in BB is crazy huge if your paying attention and worried about a grab it should never really land. One of the problems I have with BB actually, however if you do get throw the rewards are outrageously huge. But if people can throw break in SF on reaction, and get very consistent throw breaks in GG/MB is far tighter. You can definitely throw break, in BB.

Normally if Im throwing your magnetized, I expect to tech it, and am readying a trap. Or I just want you fucking off of me, and its a 6frame move.

[soujiro seta]

As much as i hate to say this and join in, Dacidbro does have a point, but I'll explain what he means by "Ara is ridiculous" in a different way.

After watching so many arakune matches I realized that CS Arakune is literally an improved version of CT throw looping Carl. You're probably going "Huh?" right about now. I'll explain.

Well, they both have 100% death combos.

Carl can throw loop you off a defensive burst in CT if nirvana is close. Arakune can get full fever meter off a gold burst. The opponent is pretty much forced to burst in both scenarios, except carl can't kill you off the defensive burst. Ara just has to let you tech off the ground and the party begins.

CT carl and CS ara rose DRASTICALLY up the tier list after their 1 shot kill combos were found. (I'm calling it now, ara will make his way to S tier if this keeps up)

How much damage CT carl deals off throw loop is dependent on how much meter nirvana has. Arakune is also dependent on a meter. Except his meter doesn't start from 100% and deplete in his attempt to get the 1 shot kill (nirvana getting hit and using her to set up). It starts from 0 and fills to 100%.

After throw loop, nirvana has to recharge. Assuming you aren't already dead, carl literally becomes free. After arakune's fever mode, assuming you aren't already dead, he refils 70% of his meter. Block one more cloud, eat one more bell bug, or get hit by one of those things that come up from the ground (sorry don't know the name), and he's back in fever mode.

Every character, not taking into consideration those who could already escape without bursting, had atleast 1 chance to escape the throw loop by bursting. So once carl hit confirmed 2a you could burst to save yourself. Bursting during Arakune's fever mode doesn't help. Even if you did burst at the right time and push ara away, YOU'RE STILL CURSED, and when it ends he'll refill his meter back to 70% again.

Fever mode arakune deals more damage quicker than carl does during throw loop.

Every character can destroy nirvana, and carl would never get the chance to throw loop. You can't "destroy" fever mode, and only a few characters have the tools to avoid it easier than others.

Fever mode is the "throw loop" of CS, except its an improved version of it.

[Black Onslaught]

Not gonna lie, when I first saw a JP video of CS Arakune's 0-Death combo, I yelled out " HOW THE FUCK IS THAT BALANCE ". Then I saw he had to build up fever mode, and made a sigh of relief. Then I saw he could airthrow and get instant fever mode, and I again yelled out " HOW THE FUCK IS THAT BALANCE ".

Since then I came to the conclusion of something the lines of :

" If I get thrown into the loop, then that's my fault for being thrown. "

" If I get gold bursted into fever mode rape, that's my fault. "

I get what Dacid and Seta are saying, but I also understand where Skye and Irssin are coming from.

If you know Arakune's going to counter air-throw you and OHKO you, then get the fuck out of the air and rethink your options.

[kousaka]

okay air throw doesn't always go into 100% curse unless your low enough to the ground

unless it's a throw counter you can just tech the air throw

even after 100% curse they still need to land a jC from a mixup which you can block and escape

In a real match where the opponent has arakune experience, after an air throw it's almost a guaranteed burst to prevent getting cursed.

[ShinsoBEAM]

even after 100% curse they still need to land a jC from a mixup which you can block and escape

This is the different between arakune CS and arakune CT for me. Because at least he can't reset the curse while your in blockstun.

[ZONG_one]

I already called him being S tier, Soujiro.

You can't call that.

Good points, nonetheless.

[kousaka]

yeah that is one of the major difference

in CT air throw goes straight into curse into 5.5k combo midscreen or 3.2k corner easy + recurse + mixup

in CS going into curse and going into combo does only 3-4k at best and usually less, usually kune will go for a reset and go for big damage

[TaoFTW]

Or you can just air throw Ara before he air throws you.