[CS1] Taokaka General Discussion

[Cryingvoid]

What about two weeks? Is there the patch date? Or the final loketest date?

[KM Riku]

The CS2 arcade release date

[Mystic d]

In their new opening video Arc showed us that CS2 Tao can do nothing but getting hit, this is what your pic says... T_T Are there no CS2 optimists at all? T_T

I'm not saying I enjoy Tao's nerfs, but I think it'll be nice to relearn the character. I'm irritated that we're losing the taunt loop since I spent so long learning it, but I do admit that it did take ridiculously long and that's what irritated most players. Tao still is going to have a lot of options because of her speed and they didn't really change her range, so we still should have a decent midgame. CS2 in general is looking like lower damaging combos for all characters (minus Arakune curse loops) so I don't see the nerfs as too bad. Tao players are just going to need to take advantage of her speed and spacing options to get the damage in. I think that oki is going to be a huge part of Tao's CS2 game, which personally I'm happy about. One more buff from the loketests that hasn't been mentioned yet is that we are getting a bigger grab range. Thank God, that SF4 throw range was pathetic.

One last thing: Tao is S+ tier in Japan, so it makes sense that she's getting the most nerfs

[KM Riku]

I don't care about losing the taunt loop, even though I spent a long time learning it. In the end, learning the taunt loop helped not only my general execution but my drivel cancel timing.

Also Mystic, it seems like you are only seeing the nerfs by the damage...but they are not the real problem here. What most of us are really worried about is her drive changes and those changes means that we can't use her drive speed and mobility to get close or zone the opponent anymore (doesn't seem you saw this change since you said "take advantage of her speed and spacing options to get the damage in"). Her drive nerfs + limiting her combo staters options are pretty much the problem. Also we knew the grab range buff, but it doesn't change much...especially because grabs prorate a lot more now...the only useful buff is her new j.B

And I really don't care if Tao is S+ tier in Japan or not, both Bang and Litchi are too and they didn't get nerfed this bad. Bang still have his godly 5A (of course, the reward now is lower) and they didn't nerf his drive except for more proration in j.D . Litchi still has her options and she even has a new loop since they buffed some of her normals...not even a normals buff they did to Tao (they even nerfed her 6A speed...which was unnecessary)

[Mystic d]

You're right, I forgot about the changes to the drives. I haven't found a single video of Tao from any of the loketests so I really don't know what the changes are exactly so I disregarded them for now. I know they said they were changing some properties, but I didn't think anyone figured out exactly how these changes would affect her play. I agree that the 6A nerf is unnecessary, but I also don't think that she's lost all of her options. If the drives have become as bad as you say they have, we can still IAD using jump attacks, and use jump cancels for strong mixup. I admit, it will be more difficult with grounded B and C attacks being air-unblockable, but keeping pressure and using frame traps should still be Tao's game. As far as I know, we should still have powerful oki, especially with the new j.B. I believe that Tao will be a mid tier character in CS2.

[KM Riku]

The drive changes I'm talking about is:

-If you don't a follow-up while using her drive (this means ~A/B/C/6 cancel), she'll stop midair and fall to the ground.

They are saying that her new j.D is bad now too. Also you didn't really got her new j.B...it's not supposed to be used as a combo finisher (specially because you can only use it 2 times in a row), her combo finisher is still j.236Bx5 and now with the 3C nerf we don't have any oki at all.

I'm not commeting about "If the drives have become as bad as you say they have, we can still IAD using jump attacks, and use jump cancels for strong mixup" now because I have to leave...but you can be sure that Tao isn't that effective doing what you are saying.

[TaoFTW]

After looking through the changes, there's no way Tao will be poop tier. She can win as long as her gatling strings don't change, reverse beat, and has three jumps. ASW just doesn't want Tao players to autopilot her anymore.

BBCT was just stagger 2a gatling string -> hitconfirm into meaties -> combo to corner -> ukemi tech traps or ambiguous crossups with weak oki setups. IB everything for meter and punish meaties.

BBCS was just mixup whatever you want into taunt loop, drive loop, CS2 loop, fruit loops -> corner -> ukemi tech traps, ambiguous mixups or just hit confirm all day with drive. IB everything for meter and punish most meaties.

BBCS2 brings nothing new to the table. Yeah she has a new j.b and can't gatling 3c anymore. These are not big problems. As long as you have meter and an overhead, you can already pull 3k. Your biggest worry is going to be, and always will be, X good matchups and X bad ones.

I'm actually happy that drives are bad now. There's no reason to reward any person to mash it till time runs out. Her drives should always leave her in negative frames so you have to splurge meter to make it safe. My suggestion is get rid of all your jumpy drive habits and start thinking about how to space yourself properly.

Edit: Thank goodness TL doesn't exist anymore.

Edit2: ASW vision of BBCS2 Tao is pre-emptive strat -> hit before you get hit. The very fact is proven that her CA is now poop. Pressure should not shift so swiftly from one side to another. So you all better up your defense big time if you want to survive. But this nerf is nowhere near as bad as a lot of people are making it out to be. On the contrary, she'll probably play...exactly the same since day 1.

Edit3: The worst case scenario is that Tao is going to be like CT Bang. Strong mixups, but has to do them numerous times to win.

Edited November 25, 2010 by TaoFTW

[Stan McJeeves]

Honestly, I felt that CT Tao had a completely different feel compared to CS. In CT (or at least for me), her combos were relatively simple: you just did things like 236CC > 2D > j.C > D > j.C.... 236BBB. It was really more of a pattern of pressing drive > j.C > drive, until you got to the cat2 finisher. Sure there were other flashy combos the pros used, but I was able to get along fine online with simple things like that (as they generally hit about 4.5k per combo).

As for CS, things changed a ton for me. The first thing I noticed was that using simple formulas like the one above for combos didn't work. I also noticed that tons of people relied on the tauntloop to get damage, and I never liked the idea of a goofy "mistake" in the game that allowed for near infinite loops. Not only that, but it seemed to me that combos relied heavily on drives/ drive cancels. While CT was simple combos for decent damage, CS required you to tauntloop into combos that relied heavily on timing/cancels.

According to what Arc has been saying, they're making Tao easier to play. Normally, I don't like easier, but if it brings back a CT style Tao, I'd be thrilled.

[KM Riku]

Even though I use 1 taunt + 22C combos instead of taunt loop, I prefer Tao CS combos than the CT ones...they were way too simple and kinda boring in my opnion, the CS non-tauntloop combos are funnier to do even if they are more difficult.

@TaoFTW: I don't really agree with some of yours points or I think they are kinda weird (like her 3C doesn't combo anymore but you still can do 3k with meter and a slow overhead), but whatever. Basically everybody here is only in theory since none of us really know how exactly she is now, so it's better just wait the arcade release...but I can't say I have much hope for this anyway.

[Cryingvoid]

Agreed that her CS1 air mechanics are amazing: the more you do those finishers, the more thrilled and excited you get and the more you want to do them again. It's just interesting, pure pleasure to execute.

Lately my favorite non-taunt is a double launch combo like: 3C>6D~6>j.C>9D~A>3D~5>j.6D~6>j.C>..>j.9D~9>j.3d~C>j.C>..>j.9D~9>j.3D~3>j.236BBBBB that's an ecstasy to pull that thing out, and I will be in woe if they were to take that away.

[Ronove]

I'm actually happy that drives are bad now. There's no reason to reward any person to mash it till time runs out. Her drives should always leave her in negative frames so you have to splurge meter to make it safe. My suggestion is get rid of all your jumpy drive habits and start thinking about how to space yourself properly.

This a hundred times.

In CT her drives were not that that great, they were only useful to cover distance in certain matchups but else it was better to move her around normally while playing footsies/air footsies. In CS her drives became so good that it pretty much "forced" alll Tao players to abuse them as much as possible (little risk/huge reward). That's one thing I didn't like that much.

[Lord Knight]

This character is too good lolll

Shoutouts to Ronove and KM riku for helping me out a couple of weeks ago. . .

If she's still fun next version I'll still play her.

Tbh, it's not like her drives got that much better, it's more like the stuff that beat them got significantly worse.

[Ronove]

Yeah. In CT using her drives on neutral was a bit of a gamble because most of the characters had good moves that would practically negate that option. That coupled with the fact that it wasn't as easy to capitalize off them (less recovery) unless it was against Arakune (CH 2D) or via RC. The risk/reward ratio wasn't as good as it is in CS1.

In regard of her playing style, it's not like it'll change drastically anyway. It'll be more similar to the way we played her in CT except we don't know if she'll have back her knockdown combos or if she'll have to instead go for 3C > oki, sacrificing damage in favour of keeping up the pressure.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Ronove

[KM Riku]

But if her 3C is techable and you can't cancel it anymore...I don't think we can even oki from it anymore...I ask myself if the combo that we usually do from 3C was that good for they nerf it.

BTW, does anybody know what is the new combo from 3C they mentioned in the loketest theard?

[zeech]

Honestly, I felt that CT Tao had a completely different feel compared to CS. In CT (or at least for me), her combos were relatively simple: you just did things like 236CC > 2D > j.C > D > j.C.... 236BBB. It was really more of a pattern of pressing drive > j.C > drive, until you got to the cat2 finisher. Sure there were other flashy combos the pros used, but I was able to get along fine online with simple things like that (as they generally hit about 4.5k per combo).

As for CS, things changed a ton for me. The first thing I noticed was that using simple formulas like the one above for combos didn't work. I also noticed that tons of people relied on the tauntloop to get damage, and I never liked the idea of a goofy "mistake" in the game that allowed for near infinite loops. Not only that, but it seemed to me that combos relied heavily on drives/ drive cancels. While CT was simple combos for decent damage, CS required you to tauntloop into combos that relied heavily on timing/cancels.

According to what Arc has been saying, they're making Tao easier to play. Normally, I don't like easier, but if it brings back a CT style Tao, I'd be thrilled.

This is similar to why I switched to Lambda in CS... taunt loop and drive (on hit) cancels are too tough for a casual like me to use. I'm happier if BnBs didnt use such features and only fancy expert combos did.

Heck, even ( j.C > JC ) x3 stumps me for some reason. Need some melty (j.A > j.B > j.C > JC)x2 hahah.

[Itzwiitard]

I like the fact that her combos were hard, she wasnt a pick up chara, and other players knew how much effort it took to learn, if they make her easier to use whats the point, tao players will loose the respect of other players then

[Cryingvoid]

I agree completely, feeling the same; but it is better to say, 'lose that authentic feel playing Tao'. Respect from other players is not a goal itself, but one of the results.

[KM Riku]

☆ロケテでは上段だったJBが1段目のみ中段に

j.B first hit is an overhead

Hiago translated it for me from the nantoka blog. Well...it was already an overhead in the first loketest but they nerfed it later...now it's an overhead again...I wonder if there'll be any use of this for pressure.

[Ronove]

Sure is, you get one more overhead other than 6B. We don't know if it'll be jump-cancelable on block (likely not, else it'd make her mixup pretty damn safe) and what level the move will be/frame (it could still be safe like current j.B is when done deep on block). With three lows and two overheads I'd say that it doesn't look that bad, especially since IB has been nerfed it means her blockstrings might last a little more and allow for longer pressure mixups rather than being as quick as possible (since with the way IB is right now it murders Tao and it's better to have short blockstrings and stagger shit or reset asap).

Edited December 2, 2010 by Ronove

[CakeWasBannedd]

i'm the best tao in north america

bitchezzzz

seriously though i am

Edited December 3, 2010 by CakeWasBannedd

[XDest]

i'm the best tao in north america

bitchezzzz

seriously though i am

[CakeWasBannedd]

i'm the best tao in north america

bitchezzzz

seriously though i am

no me

[zeech]

I like the fact that her combos were hard, she wasnt a pick up chara, and other players knew how much effort it took to learn, if they make her easier to use whats the point, tao players will loose the respect of other players then

If you wanted respect shouldnt you be playing GG? I thought BB was meant to be accessible for newer players?

[Stan McJeeves]

I like to think of BB as having multiple levels of difficulty at the start. First you have guys like Ragna, where using INFERNO DIVIDAH combos will work quite effectively for quite some time. On the other hand, you have characters like Tao and Litchi, who have steep learning curves, but pay off in the higher levels of play.

[KM Riku]

Not that Tao players are respected in CS anyway...most of people actually hate us...and I love that :3