[CS1] Mu-12 vs Tager

[bakahyl]

I never said you can't guard break him, but he has 10 primers so that means that you will break his guard once or twice in a match. But lambda does a better job at that than mu, except if you include some 236d laser trap with SoD. But still ,breaking his guard will often go wrong if you broke tager with a charged stein. I have seen it happen many times when the leftover hits from the laser will ruin your breaking advantage.

I think that lambda does a much better job at keeping away Tager and her matchup is considered 6,5-3,5 in her favor.

The only thing lambda doesn't have that's better than mu is a physical dp.

[FlyingVe]

They can both be bad matchups. The reason Mu could be better is because, Lambda has to commit to her swords. If she fires a bad sword or Tager predicts it, she gets punished. If Mu places a bad stein, unless Tagers reactions and yomi are godlike, you can jump cancel the stien and block/getaway.

[bakahyl]

Stein's are less usefull at doing damage than swords because they hardly combo into something. Furthermore some of her act parsers can be used to compensate her bad sword placements. Normal lasers have virtually no blockstun, meaning you can block and still slowly move closer without using sledge.

Your main source of damage should not be the steins unlike lambda with her swords.

[FlyingVe]

-You cannot block and move forward.

-Steins control space making Tager do something active to get in, that's when you hit him.

-Lasers are excellent zoning tools.

-You can't cancel a wiffed sword with Lambda, and the parsers are to slow to stop a sledge.

Point is you're trying to tell alot of experience players that they're playing this matchup wrong, but, at the risk of being a dick, I quite doubt it.

[bakahyl]

-Steins have a setup delay before they can be fired, due to the lack of block stun on the lasers, you can move forward unlike mu when you keep getting stuck by her swords.

- same goes for lambda swords, she can cancel her 5d into 214a and it will beat sledge depending on your timing and distance. Both mu and lambda have a dp , but lambda's can be sledged but it's more rewarding. She has less jump cancable moves unlike nu or mu, but she is not completly defeated by sledges.

You said Tager's reaction and yomi needs to be godlike to get close to mu, her steins are not that easy to setup perfectly to keep tager aways. You actually need to be on the ground to start anything damaging.

Even in your own video against heroic legacy, you are still hit by lot's things that he threw at you. There is no doubt that you can keep tagers away for a while, but just like in ct tagers needs to be very patient. Because the steins on itself are not the biggest danger. And when you need to combo there is always a chance of an instant block 720.

Or that other vid on your own topic

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?10300-Mu-12-Critique-and-Self-Improvement-Thread&p=796055&viewfull=1#post796055

That was a great display of keeping Tager away, but a good timed sledge or superjumped barrierguard can get through no matter how good you place it. One of the reasons is the 0 blockstun on the lasers that you can superjump or use sledge immediately after blocking.

And i still miss the advantage that mu has over lambda to call it 7-3. Their a and b normals are almost the same and lambda's c normals are better than mu when it comes to active frames and start up. And i have cleared my points on their drives.

#edit even in CT the matchup nu vs tager was 7-3. And she could jump cancel almost all of her swords back then and tager was more garbage compared to now. So I wouldn't say that the matchup against tager with mu is 7-3 in any way.

[FlyingVe]

Nu vs Tager was much worse than 7-3, that chart was way old, and also I didn't said this matchup was 7-3.

-I didn't say his reactions need to be godlike to get close, I said they'd need to be so to actually punish a stein.

-Lambda's 214A doesn't even hit, so it can't beat sledge

-I never said sledge, why are you assuming I meant sledges?

-In that vid, did you notice my screw ups? I dropped a corner RC link and a botched DP (Got 6C) which caused that final hit. The point was, that even after eating a Tager buster, and guessing wrong in Gadget Finger, I still could have, and probably should have won.

-As for keeping Tager out, steins work great, but you also have your C normals.

It's a really bad matchup because for Tager to win, he not only needs to guess right, but guess right several times.

[A.X.I.S.]

Ve are you up for a few 1 on 1's man? I need more match exp and my tager is a bit rusty.

also this match sucks, all I want to do is IB stuff and hope your close enough to punish it.

6.5>3.5 for mu at best.

another thing nu vs tager was definitely a 7-3, being curse zoned is worse than sword zoned.

[bakahyl]

Sledge is not completely invincible for projectiles i think it was on 3f till 11f. a right timed seed will disrupt a sledge.

Mu's c normals are either -x on block and have an average startup. You will eat a 360.

and the 7-3 part was said by synthesis, so my bad.

[FlyingVe]

Ve are you up for a few 1 on 1's man? I need more match exp and my tager is a bit rusty.

also this match sucks, all I want to do is IB stuff and hope your close enough to punish it.

6.5>3.5 for mu at best.

another thing nu vs tager was definitely a 7-3, being curse zoned is worse than sword zoned.

Yeah, if you're on later I'll invite you.

I agree, curse was worse, but both sucked super hard. I was thinking Tager vs Nu as 8-2 and Tager vs Arakune as 9-1. Either way they were pretty much unwinnable.

sledge is not completely invincable for projectiles only on 3f-11f. a right timed seed will disrupt him.

Mu's c normals are either -x on block and have an average startup. You will eat a 360.

I don't even think I can respond to this properly. You're theory fighting here son.

[A.X.I.S.]

I probably won't be on later.

@ bakahyl: your not factoring spacing.

[Aginor]

As more of a fair input, this match up isn't completely free for mu. Depends on how good the Tager player is. Assuming the Tager player and Mu player are good then match up imo would be 6-4. No way that it would be 7-3. And I agree with AXIS that AT WORST this match up is 6.5-3.5 in mu's favor. But I'd consider this match up either 5.5-4.5 or 6-4 in mu's favor. Thing about Tager is that once he gets in, Mu is really screwed assuming Tager keeps mu in the corner and keeps doing resets.

FlyingVe: Carl vs Tager was just as bad as Arakune vs Tager. Once carl started hitting tager, carl already won pretty much.

[Synthesis]

The match up is by no means free, but let's stop arguing until the Japanese come out with a match up chart.

Tager specific combos/strategies, anyone?

[FlyingVe]

FlyingVe: Carl vs Tager was just as bad as Arakune vs Tager. Once carl started hitting tager, carl already won pretty much.

Yeah, I know, I just didn't mention that one. Tager has this habit of sucking.

I agree on the matchup, though I think it's on the worse side. I peg it at 6.5 in Mu's favor for exactly the reason you listed. Once Tager gets in, it really sucks.

On the strategies part, I'm a big fan of 236D oki in this matchup. If you do ~>6C>5D>6D>236D You can block a wakeup sledge and the laser will CH him and let you combo. Once he stops sledging you have all kinds of options. On the opposite note, ~>5D>6D>(SJC) and ~6C>2D>j2C>6D can be back-dashed by Tager.

Also, midscreen, if you can get 3-4 steins in a horizontal pattern 236D is fairly sledge proof (provided you're not in Tagers grill for a grab) as the sledge should get hit out of recovery.

Edit: Tager was also free against Rachel and pretty screwed against Jin and Tao, but, CT was just... yeah.

[Heroic_Legacy]

Good shit to XaQ Shinor making me free as fuck in pools.

After going through her gatlings, anything after 2B or 5B is IB 360A able.

Even 2B 5B. Had I known this, it would have been a different match. Good shit though.

[FlyingVe]

Be careful with that, because 5B and 2B are 360A proof on their own.

[Big Red Tie]

people need to remember that tager himself is not projectile guarded while shooting spark bolt. the slightest breeze will stop it coming out (i.e. laser beams)

also i'd say this matchup is theoretically 6.5/7 in mu's favor, but realistically it's probably more like 6-4

[SolarMisae]

people need to remember that tager himself is not projectile guarded while shooting spark bolt. the slightest breeze will stop it coming out (i.e. laser beams)

also i'd say this matchup is theoretically 6.5/7 in mu's favor, but realistically it's probably more like 6-4

Yep, I love when this happens. It's pretty lulzy when a tiny laser fires right as he's about to do it, and it cancels the whole thing out. Wasted Spark, advantage Mu lol.

[Synthesis]

Nice avatar. But yeah. I personally love doing 5D 4D 214D for oki after 6C. It works really well and teaches Tager not to do anything. Also, I NEVER use my meter outside of DP unless I have 100%. That way on Tager's oki, his only safe option is to backdash. Gives her the best advantage ever, because her backdash beats most things. ^_^

[Remius]

i used to have serious issues with this matchup...and then i finally realized her 5C beats his Sledge out. Made this matchup almost funny. (Haven't played an amazing tager lately, though.)

If you keep your strategy unpredictable, you can keep this matchup way easier than usual. In my experience her oki lasers dont work if he wakes up with sledge, but it's hilarious when you setup a laser trap and move across the screen, and his automatic response is to spark bolt. He gets hit out of the animation and you get to safely zone him all over again. Stein explosions dont beat out his sledge, but they DO usually last long enough to hit him afterwards. If he starts sledge anytime before the explosion, he almost definitely going to be hit.

setup steins, blow em up in his face. It's funny. Just....don't get caught.

[C0R]

63214c is abuseable in is matchup to no end.

5c > 4d > 63214c yo.

[pulsr]

63214c is abuseable in is matchup to no end.

5c > 4d > 63214c yo.

Risk reward in that situation isn't worth it, Tager can mash inbetween that... and the 1k damage from SoD is kinda ass compared to the 4k + oki tager gets. Take your 2 steins and gtfo.

[C0R]

I suppose if he's close enough to you, but if he's already at that range you'd have to be whiffing some pretty important normals.

Edited March 24, 2011 by C0R

[pulsr]

try having him mash 5c in between, he doesn't have to hit you just the hit box of the move.

[Remius]

I find 5C > 5D > SoD (or) jump backwards works fine. It sets the steins where hes usually gonna be, unless he jumps alot, which is a free 2C anyway.

It's great, because his mobility and hitbox allows you to make great use out of 214D, if you use it correctly.

The only time this matchup is ass for me is when a) he actually baits my DP in a blockstring or b) he hits me with a drive move. Shit gets dangerous primarily when he has a sparkbolt, since you can't fight like a little annoying bitch anymore.

Another funny fact, if you're magnatized and Tager does a move that attracts you, j.2D will have Mu pulled in, but it'll ignore the Y-axis movement. This usually works against Tager in my experience, as im getting a free CH. (But im usually displaced by that point and drop the combo anyway.)

Edited May 9, 2011 by Remius

[Phantom Index]

Use steins to get him to startup his sledge and then jump and air dash into a MidAir 5C and then a MidAir 2C. Works most of the time.