Zappa Love: Series Renovation. AC Edition!!!!

[Try Again?]

Did we play at all?

[Oiboi]

I think I've fought you before, man. Summon is not throw-invincible. Overdrive is (recovery is not). Look at the frame data if you don't believe me. lol

[Try Again?]

Oiboi. You played me? Who did you use at C3?

[Phrekwenci]

The only thing that gave me a rough time was sol's command grab on wake up....eh....zappa can't beat that out with anything, not even a summon.

The last thing on your mind on wake up should be summoning. You are much better off either backdashing, or throwing out a normal.

[Tiamat]

yay oiboi says I'm right XD phrekwenci: throw out a normal on wakeup? it's not as if your normals are throw invulnerable so I don't see why they would beat a properly timed command grab

[Oiboi]

Try Again: It was several months back, I played Zappa. All I remember is a big black guy whose dog was really nice to see in action, I had several mirror matches (Sorry if I'm coming off as racist lol). Wakeup summon is... Well, honestly, I do it more than I should. Dangief seems to do it a lot too. It's an option, albeit a very risky one. Works if you don't have tension but the opponent is definitely going for an attack. Otherwise, block/backdash and punish. (I'm serious, wakeup summon isn't as bad as it sounds, but prepared to take the punishment if it doesn't work) Normals are just asking to get beat the hell up. You have more frames of invulnerablity if you don't go for a reversal, so just blocking is always the safest option. If your fighting eddie, your screwed already for getting knocked down. Sorry, lol. Also, you might not believe me, but I've sometimes gotten wakeup Sword specials and such off. After playing so long, I can sometimes 'tell' when I'm getting a certain summon, even when the timer isn't on the right second (Though that can definitely help you). Works for a DP, but uh... even less reliable than wakeup summon. Don't depend on this.

[Try Again?]

I don't wake up summon every time, i had to learn that the hard way. >>; Depending on the character i do it alil more than im suppose to. I usually try to get a 6p off into summon or just simply backdash away on wakeups. >>; Wakeup summon can get you hurt, but alot of people get hit by it...so i guess its not so bad. LOL, i punished mamation with wakeup summons >>; ( When he had ky that is. ) When he had his eddie out...well, i just blocked until i got the opportunity to 6p summon, DAA, burst, or whatever to get myself out of hell. Dog was really useful.. o.O; We might have played Oiboi. What did that guy mean by getting up and doing a normal? Zappas normals wont do a damn thing against sols Command grab ( Unless there is something i dont understand..). >>; Wouldn't backdashing be the best option... ( Hell, thats what i did. )

[Dangief]

You can't be meaty thrown. I'f he's trying to command grab you can jump, 1 frame FD jump or backdash out. And yes reversal summon isn't the best idea, and yes I do it too much =). By the way, Centipedes super has been throw invincible since Reload. So has sword uppercut. Fear the days of XX when NONE of them were.

[Tiamat]

oiboi: wondertonic is also "a big black guy" and I know I've seen you play him a few times back in june-july or something. I know I played both of you back then...you mulligan and VR won that random team tournament in july lol. wondertonic was there

[Phrekwenci]

I wasn't talking about beating a command throw on wake-up. I was talking about not doing a summon on wake-up. Talk about being punished. Sure, a normal on wake-up probably wont do much good but at least you have some control as to what comes out.

[Oiboi]

Tiamat: Oh, your probably right. I can't remember, I didn't catch the guys name, so... Note: You can't be grabbed out of wakeup if you do not reversal. REVERSAL=GRAB (at least with zappa). Make them whiff the command grab and use a grab of your own/punish. (Yes, this is true. Look up frame data: At about 7-9 frames, you can reversal. If you do not, you have ~11 frames of full invulnerablity, which can be lengthened if you use Zappa's beastly backdash. So, if you try to attack, you WILL get grabbed if there depending on it. IF YOU DO NOT REVERSAL, You're safe.) So obviously, Doing nothing is the safest option (Japs do this too, they NEVER fall for DP or throw bait).

[Try Again?]

Thanks. Heres the real question though, what do you do about testaments forward beast? Thats what gives me trouble. Id rather fight eddie with zappa then testament. It just seems like Zappa has ways to deal with eddie and not so many against testament. The only thing that helps is the ghost in my opinion. ( Or dog ) But thats if you get it out...

[Try Again?]

I already know about the timing of the summons, its just under pressure..its really hard to get out ghost and the dog. Testaments forward beast is seriously the only trouble i have fighting him. Its, how do you stay close after getting close... Its the forward beast, in combination with everything else >>; Tips? Or is everyone else is stuck as i am....lol

[Tiamat]

ways to beat forward beast regardless of character 1) jump/iad attack (assume he didn't frc, but even if he does he lacks invulnerable anti airs so you probably not in terrible danger) 2) run into his face and FD throw him, it doesn't hit if you are close enough to him as long as you're close enough run FD throw beats forward beast, warrant, and poison super. also beats him if he only has one tree out and he's just low blocking with it slightly in front of him.

[Oiboi]

ways to beat forward beast regardless of character

1) jump/iad attack (assume he didn't frc, but even if he does he lacks invulnerable anti airs so you probably not in terrible danger)

2) run into his face and FD throw him, it doesn't hit if you are close enough to him

as long as you're close enough run FD throw beats forward beast, warrant, and poison super. also beats him if he only has one tree out and he's just low blocking with it slightly in front of him.

Better option: Wait for the Forward beast to hit your guard, rush in and punish (6P or 5K, unsummon, c.S Sword, dog, ANYTHING as long as it'll beat out his defensive attack). Jumping into the air is BAD, ESPECIALLY vs. Testament. He'll just badlands/gravedigger you. Don't do it.

[Tiamat]

but oiboi, why block the forward beast? it's advantage on block don't you know? he can easily hit you if you choose to attack after it and yeah testament can anti air you but that doesn't mean you shouldn't jump if you predict a beast, if he doesn't beast try to air FD and hope for the best maybe you can punish it with one of those ghetto jD (land) jP aircombo combos

[HellSap]

Hes saying just IB and immediately start putting in pressure against whatever TE follows up with. If they FRC, you won't have much to work with, but if its just a normal block, several of your options (listed) will beat TE's options. I've gotten dashing summon through EXE beast, but you never want something that doesnt knock down when trading a CH...

[Tiamat]

IB only recovers you from blockstun 2 frames faster, and I'm pretty sure Testament's still advantage even if you do IB it. blocking it doesn't solve anything, at best it creates a neutral situation. I'm not saying jump / dash throw every time you think he will do a forward beast but you should do it at least enough to make him not spam it constantly or you'll lose

[Phrekwenci]

Forward beast is something you will have to out-zone when naked. You'll have to play with your spacing to do it right. Obviously with summons you have better options: Dog: let the dog eat the beast, then rush that shit down. Sword: 5HS etc Ghost: 5S etc Stay the hell out of the air, Testament's 5P is an odd anti-air, which can of course combo into other ridiculous things.

[Oiboi]

Neutral is better than in a combo. And even if he FRC's, if you block, he has nothing to work with. Hell, you can even sit there FBing every beast and attack he throws at you until he's out of tension and then punish. Just because he has frame advantage doesn't mean he can just throw out another HS beast, it just means he can attack before you can; Which isn't the end all-be all of the match if you don't do something stupid.

[Tiamat]

if you wanna play it safe than block it, but that's not gonna make him stop spamming it. if you want a way to straight up punish him for it, so that he'll stop spamming it constantly, you'll need to do something more risky.

[Oiboi]

if you wanna play it safe than block it, but that's not gonna make him stop spamming it. if you want a way to straight up punish him for it, so that he'll stop spamming it constantly, you'll need to do something more risky.

Your missing the point. This is a form of punishment; If it doesn't work, he's less likely to try it again when you punish his followup. Under no circumstances should zappa get into the air against testament unless he has an air combo going. Seriously, His air normals are just going to whiff entirely and get beat severely. It's foolish to think otherwise, even Raou will get beat in the air.

If you want to ignore the forward beast, just run past and 5k/Summon through the FRC followup (6P works at a close distance). Otherwise, block and punish the followup. Frame advantage indicates he can move before you, not that he's going to spam a hundred forward beasts before you can do anything.

[Try Again?]

Thats kinda useful. What about Testament's lockdown off of wakeup? Can zappa backdash on wakeup against the lockdown?

[Tiamat]

oiboi: I think you are the one missing the point. he can't anti air if he's doing a beast around the same time as your jump (unless he frcs in which case who knows). you get a free combo. and how can you block and punish his beast followup? everything he could possibly dream of using is safe or advantage on block. It's not as if only you are allowed to vary your followups, he's got something to deal with anything you could possibly do it's just a matter of prediction. if he thinks you'll do 5K he can 6K, if he thinks you'll do 6P he can low move, if he thinks you'll summon he can block or whiff punish it. even if he chooses not to attack after the beast cause he thinks you will summon or something, he can just use that frame advantage to run away and set out more traps I just don't understand why you wouldn't jump at all if he's using it a lot.

[Oiboi]

Try Again?: In most situations, you should be able to backdash out. If he does the S Beast, you might be in trouble, but in certain situations you can pass through it. Tiamat: Because jumping is not safe. If you IAD, MAYBE you can get to him before he's able to block/attack, but your seriously putting yourself in unnecessary risk, because he can just FRC next time he does it. It's not going to make him stop. Also, unless you FD jump on reaction, it's likely that the beast will hit you. And unless your stuck in the corner, beast will push you away from Testament, therefore, you'd be mostly safe anyways because you'd be out of range on block. I'm assuming your referring to corner pressure because I'm not sure why testament would spam HS beast midscreen. And again, even if he has frame advantage, it's not safe for him to spam HS Beast when he's out of tension. Jumping is not safe, not for Zappa, you can try it and it might work every now and then, but that doesn't mean that they're not going to learn from it. Edit: To clarify, it is sometimes good to get out of certain setups by 1 frame jumping and FD'ing. It's tension expensive, but it will render unblockable setups useless for the most part. Just look out for tickthrows and airgrabs. You can get into the air if you want, but it's not safe. You can get through most of the startup on the ground, which is MUCH safer, and much more effective in punishing it.