Dallas-Fort Worth Thread

[KeyBlaz]

This game...this character!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fJGijzL1BQ

Any fighter who uses a scythe is badass in my book. Definitely keeping my eyes on this game.

Fuck another anime fighter that wants my money....(looks at wallet) T_T

[cookie`]

saturday will be a no-go for me

it's st. patrick's day and, well, let's just say I plan on not being fit to drive anywhere for most of it

[WOOF X7]

>jin

>bad

ARE YOU HIGH

While he doesnt have unreactable overheads he can just lean on like kazuya, he also doesnt have to deal with the unsafeness of such and his command normal overhead leads into his tekken chain, which leaves you at either advantage on block or a full combo.

he doesnt approach as easily as kazuya but his projectile zoning is good and he argueably has better normals than kazuya and also has good damage

neutral is different and argueably better, defense may be better(not sure, both have mist step but kazuya has the -1 on block leapkick but then jin has those two stances with defensive properties), jin's mixup is more reactable but much safer and leads back into his strong + frame pressure, both charas have good damage. also jin can do oki setups that put his projectile on the enemy so he can get in if they didnt roll or just be on top of them if they did roll

Even if jin is worse than kazuya he is also just different and certainly not bad

Overhead is just about as amazing as Relius' 6a,leading into a tekken chain isn't near as rewarding as other peoples overheads,it being plus on block is cool but its so easy to react to and Ignis isn't about to show up and keep him from being hit out of it. And projectile zoning good? The hitbox on it is retarded,sure you can beat out other projectile users but your not keeping anyone away with it. Yes his normals are a bit better but Kazuya is no where near as unsafe as you make him out to be and the damage difference between them is HUGE,partially because the Kazuya I fight against makes great use of the restand glitch he has.Wavedash is terrible when compared to Kazuya and Jins lack of overheads stop him from becoming a real threat while stance dancing.Ex Powerstance is cool for combos but the move just loses purpose out of that because everyone can get forced counterhits though EX charging.I'm not gonna lie Stand HK and Powerstance into super is really sexy,but Jin just doesn't have much going for him.My 2 cents atleast

Edited March 15, 2012 by WOOF X7

[Chickzama]

Fuck another anime fighter that wants my money....(looks at wallet) T_T

It isn't even out in JP arcades yet, so you have time to save up! Here's hoping it gets a console release.

[Mightfo]

Overhead is just about as amazing as Relius' 6a,leading into a tekken chain isn't near as rewarding as other peoples overheads,it being plus on block is cool but its so easy to react to and Ignis isn't about to show up and keep him from being hit out of it. And projectile zoning good? The hitbox on it is retarded,sure you can beat out other projectile users but your not keeping anyone away with it. Yes his normals are a bit better but Kazuya is no where near as unsafe as you make him out to be and the damage difference between them is HUGE,partially because the Kazuya I fight against makes great use of the restand glitch he has.Wavedash is terrible when compared to Kazuya and Jins lack of overheads stop him from becoming a real threat while stance dancing.Ex Powerstance is cool for combos but the move just loses purpose out of that because everyone can get forced counterhits though EX charging.I'm not gonna lie Stand HK and Powerstance into super is really sexy,but Jin just doesn't have much going for him.My 2 cents atleast

the overhead is 23f. relius's is 26f. 23f is a reasonable overhead speed considering most games' overheads. what other overheads in sfxt are more rewarding and less risky than his? It ends up +4 on block, almost no overheads in the game besides xiao's put you in a position like that. A lot of overheads are unreactable but are usually punishable on block, some of which lead into a combo(lili, asuka, akuma, all 1f links lol, asuka/lili's are punishable) or some which dont(nina, kazuya, ken, paul. kazuya/ken/paul's are punishable). Some are reactable and lead to varying rewards(xiaoyu's does groundbounce and is + on block, bob's are almost all punishable on block, no combo on hit, and reactable, marduk's is comboabel on hit and disadvantage on block and same speed as jin's, paul has a reactable one that leads into a small combo and is safe but not advantage, etc etc)

It is really easy to make them not want to mash during jin pressure due to shit like +5 on block cr.mp and +4 cr.lp. If they're mashing, they're getting hit, especially if you do a good amount of stagger to fuck up their pacing. Disrespecting his overhead is risky and can only be done on reaction, which means frame 20 at the earliest if they have a 3f jab, supers aside. Additionally, the tekken chain afterwards can set up a restand(yay resets) if you go for the sweep ender into tag cancel. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CivgVpYlvH0#t=1m20s you can see the restand here)

Being able to charge his projectile allows you to do strong keepaway, since you can get the EX and such.(plus, charge->backdash is fantastic meter for most characters, and with him it duals as a zoning threat) They really have to be on point with their jumps to do anything. I think it is better than orochi shermie's which it seems to be based off of. And it isn't like he needs the projectiles to do well in neutral. They seem quite good at denying jumps and limiting the enemy's offense to things that risk being sweeped or blocked, not even accounting for utilizing charging for potential EXs/dash cancelling.

Kazuya's overheads are either 1)piddly reward and unsafe 2)Super reactable and gimmicky.

6lk and 6mk dont give you combos or even signfiicant advantaeg and are -5 and -4 on block. 4HK gives you knockdown and 110 damage and is -11 on block. Useful, yes, but risky. The risk for all of these is much greater than the reward. 70-110 damage at the risk of 300+ if they block it, not even accounting if they hit you out of them. People who are mashing/attacking based on tempo are going to hit these just as often as jin's overhead.

By restand glitch, do you mean kazuya's infinite? that is going away anyway lol, especially considering that capcom removed many infinites in marvel. plus it only works on like 9 characters.

All of kaz's special overheads are gimmicky as fuck. His 214k's mid followups always come after a certain number of lows and dont even qualify as a rekka mixup in terms of pacing.(except maybe EX, havent tested that) not to mention the reward is piddly anyway just like his command normals. Slaughter hook is a super reactable overhead since there are no low followups and the high followup leaves him at large disadvantage anyway, so who gives a fuck? Block and punish, that shit is a gimmick overhead due to startup and blockfreeze.

His overhead followup after spinning demon in mist step has the same problem as his command normal overheads, except super super unsafe since the low is -17 and the overhead is -29. I suppose dragon uppercut mixups after may be legit, but they're also piddly on reward and mostly just a back up for if dragon uppercut is blocked, as opposed to a primary mixup.

Thus, kazuya's high/low mixup is all risky as hell. The reward for someone blocking is three times as high at least than for hitting with such overheads, and his rewarding overheads are pure gimmicks that can be reacted by anyone who knows kazuya's options. Useful to stop downbackers? Sure. But it could be easily argued that a 23f, safe overhead that leads into more pressure is better. 23f is certainly as good as most overheads in BB or KOF, and is above and beyond the risk-reward ratio for most overheads in SFxT, which mostly consists of unreactable ones that are punishable if blocked and reactable ones which end pressure.

As for jin wavedash, you just have to be more specific about range since you cant just repeat it. Whatever. Both him and kazuya have risky overheads they can use in mist step, the punish for blocking them is much higher than the reward, so they're more of a back up plan in case the opponent is blocking your approach than mixup for the sake of mixup. And jin's arent as unsafe, neither of them are as bad as kazuya's -17 low.

His two stances are about defense, not mixup, so lack of overheads dont really matter. Plus, mental alertness->swaying willow is actually safe. Pretty nice for a 5f move that comes from a move with 1-10f invuln. Power stance autoguard seems potent like kof2002 takuma autoguard as well. Again, his stances are defensive, not offensive.

Admittedly, Kazuya perfect EWGF might give him a large damage edge against jin. I dunno if Jin has a perfect EWGF.

And again, even if jin was theoretically worse than kazuya, he is far from a bad character.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Mightfo

[KeyBlaz]

Plus until they patch it we have the Jin glitch lol

[Ronin Jinobi]

Plus until they patch it we have the Jin glitch lol

Hoes on my dick.

[Edge Reaper]

Might using that knowledge! Right on!

Them crazy japs got a tier list for SFXT and it distresses me a bit. Yoshimitsu is bottom tier with Paul being only JUST better than him. My choices of characters must suck because those were the two I was hoping to try out and learn about, hoping one would fill in the second spot (Juri taking point). Someone explain to me why they're so bad?

[WOOF X7]

the overhead is 23f. relius's is 26f. 23f is a reasonable overhead speed considering most games' overheads. what other overheads in sfxt are more rewarding and less risky than his? It ends up +4 on block, almost no overheads in the game besides xiao's put you in a position like that. A lot of overheads are unreactable but are usually punishable on block, some of which lead into a combo(lili, asuka, akuma, all 1f links lol, asuka/lili's are punishable) or some which dont(nina, kazuya, ken, paul. kazuya/ken/paul's are punishable). Some are reactable and lead to varying rewards(xiaoyu's does groundbounce and is + on block, bob's are almost all punishable on block, no combo on hit, and reactable, marduk's is comboabel on hit and disadvantage on block and same speed as jin's, paul has a reactable one that leads into a small combo and is safe but not advantage, etc etc)

It is really easy to make them not want to mash during jin pressure due to shit like +5 on block cr.mp and +4 cr.lp. If they're mashing, they're getting hit, especially if you do a good amount of stagger to fuck up their pacing. Disrespecting his overhead is risky and can only be done on reaction, which means frame 20 at the earliest if they have a 3f jab, supers aside. Additionally, the tekken chain afterwards can set up a restand(yay resets) if you go for the sweep ender into tag cancel. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CivgVpYlvH0#t=1m20s you can see the restand here)

Being able to charge his projectile allows you to do strong keepaway, since you can get the EX and such.(plus, charge->backdash is fantastic meter for most characters, and with him it duals as a zoning threat) They really have to be on point with their jumps to do anything. I think it is better than orochi shermie's which it seems to be based off of. And it isn't like he needs the projectiles to do well in neutral. They seem quite good at denying jumps and limiting the enemy's offense to things that risk being sweeped or blocked, not even accounting for utilizing charging for potential EXs/dash cancelling.

Kazuya's overheads are either 1)piddly reward and unsafe 2)Super reactable and gimmicky.

6lk and 6mk dont give you combos or even signfiicant advantaeg and are -5 and -4 on block. 4HK gives you knockdown and 110 damage and is -11 on block. Useful, yes, but risky. The risk for all of these is much greater than the reward. 70-110 damage at the risk of 300+ if they block it, not even accounting if they hit you out of them. People who are mashing/attacking based on tempo are going to hit these just as often as jin's overhead.

By restand glitch, do you mean kazuya's infinite? that is going away anyway lol, especially considering that capcom removed many infinites in marvel. plus it only works on like 9 characters.

All of kaz's special overheads are gimmicky as fuck. His 214k's mid followups always come after a certain number of lows and dont even qualify as a rekka mixup in terms of pacing.(except maybe EX, havent tested that) not to mention the reward is piddly anyway just like his command normals. Slaughter hook is a super reactable overhead since there are no low followups and the high followup leaves him at large disadvantage anyway, so who gives a fuck? Block and punish, that shit is a gimmick overhead due to startup and blockfreeze.

His overhead followup after spinning demon in mist step has the same problem as his command normal overheads, except super super unsafe since the low is -17 and the overhead is -29. I suppose dragon uppercut mixups after may be legit, but they're also piddly on reward and mostly just a back up for if dragon uppercut is blocked, as opposed to a primary mixup.

Thus, kazuya's high/low mixup is all risky as hell. The reward for someone blocking is three times as high at least than for hitting with such overheads, and his rewarding overheads are pure gimmicks that can be reacted by anyone who knows kazuya's options. Useful to stop downbackers? Sure. But it could be easily argued that a 23f, safe overhead that leads into more pressure is better. 23f is certainly as good as most overheads in BB or KOF, and is above and beyond the risk-reward ratio for most overheads in SFxT, which mostly consists of unreactable ones that are punishable if blocked and reactable ones which end pressure.

As for jin wavedash, you just have to be more specific about range since you cant just repeat it. Whatever. Both him and kazuya have risky overheads they can use in mist step, the punish for blocking them is much higher than the reward, so they're more of a back up plan in case the opponent is blocking your approach than mixup for the sake of mixup. And jin's arent as unsafe, neither of them are as bad as kazuya's -17 low.

His two stances are about defense, not mixup, so lack of overheads dont really matter. Plus, mental alertness->swaying willow is actually safe. Pretty nice for a 5f move that comes from a move with 1-10f invuln. Power stance autoguard seems potent like kof2002 takuma autoguard as well. Again, his stances are defensive, not offensive.

Admittedly, Kazuya perfect EWGF might give him a large damage edge against jin. I dunno if Jin has a perfect EWGF.

And again, even if jin was theoretically worse than kazuya, he is far from a bad character.

I always knew Relius Overhead was slow and now Jin's is almost as bad? Great. Its safe yeah but the problem is how slow it is and if your opponent is watching for it which they will be you are getting smacked outta it. Overhead's are for mixing up not for pressure. Its just like Relius your gonna beat him with down back and throw option select.

As for the Projectile. No one is going to let you charge that and the hitbox is terrible. I agree his neutral is ok with out it but its not going to make him into a fighter that can control a lot of space.

As for the Kazuya part I'll get back to you on his damage from his overheads as I don't actually play Kazuya as well as my friend but the restand glitch works on anyone, the infinite is based on the restand glitch but it allows Kazuya to stand his opponents up after a juggle and spend a bar to tag a partner to do a new combo while the opponent is staggered. In SfxT meter is plentiful and this happens alot.

And fuck Jin's wave dash it less useful in neutral as there is alot less control and backdashing into punish is not happening(all though its beast in combos) and once again that overhead is much too slow and telegraphed for anything to happen.Mental Alertness and Power Stance are god like moves for Defense but thats the problem with this character He's safe but has no way to bust someone open. He's got defense tools with a shitty projectile and no real anti air out of leaping side kick which is once again slow as shit. If he had SSF4 Bison priority this would be okay but he doesn't.

I hope I'm wrong about him and I will play him because he's sexy as fuck, but lets just say i'm not blown away by him and He is defeated by the all mighty downback

[WOOF X7]

Might using that knowledge! Right on!

Them crazy japs got a tier list for SFXT and it distresses me a bit. Yoshimitsu is bottom tier with Paul being only JUST better than him. My choices of characters must suck because those were the two I was hoping to try out and learn about, hoping one would fill in the second spot (Juri taking point). Someone explain to me why they're so bad?

I haven't messed with Paul at all but Yoshi's hitbox on his moves are all pretty terrible. You would think with that sword he would be gdlk at poking,but apparently not.

[Mightfo]

Can anyone pick up jet so that he can bring a setup?

Them crazy japs got a tier list for SFXT and it distresses me a bit. Yoshimitsu is bottom tier with Paul being only JUST better than him. My choices of characters must suck because those were the two I was hoping to try out and learn about, hoping one would fill in the second spot (Juri taking point). Someone explain to me why they're so bad?

Ignore most of that tier list imo, but i agree that yoshimitsu and paul are bad. Sorry. Paul has some nice advantage and his light mortar punch or whatever is +3 on block but seems underwhelming in general and mortar punch is slow. He just has trouble in neutral and doesnt get that much reward for it, doesnt stand out in very many ways. Yoshimitsu's hitboxes are ass and has trouble mixing people up, although his j.hp and a few of his specials are strong at beating some things in neutral, all of his specials are unsafe. His lack of safeness, bad normals, and bad pressure isnt really made up for by the amazing "priority" on windmill and j.hp, especially since windmill is so risky.

I always knew Relius Overhead was slow and now Jin's is almost as bad? Great.

.....

23f is a reasonable overhead speed. There is a gigantic difference between 23f and 26f, just like between 17(barely reactable) and 20(somewhat reactable). Have you ever been hit by bang's 5c or ragna's 6b or ragna gauntlet hades? 24f. Litchi 6a? 22f. Noel 6b? 24f. Haz 6a? 22f. Mu 6b? 22f. Ky 5d? 22f. Bridget 6k? 23f. Fiona 6b? 22f. These are all overheads which you will see good players get hit by frequently. In japan. Are you going to be silly and call the reactions of top players in japan bad?

I already sat down and explained to you why it is better off in terms of reward for hitting and reward for it being blocked as well compared to most other overheads in the game.

Its safe yeah but the problem is how slow it is and if your opponent is watching for it which they will be you are getting smacked outta it.

except they have to react with hitting by frame 20 to hit you out of it, or they will get counterhit. Do you think people react to 20f overheads at a high rate? If not, people arent going to hit you out of your overhead well. And if they cant do that, they have to deal with more pressure after blocking.

Overhead's are for mixing up not for pressure.

the whole purpose of pressure IS mix-up. The fact that jin has so much advantage on normals causes them to focus on trying to get out and not get set up with throws instead of focusing on blocking high. Overheads do not exist in a vacuum, they are relative to all of your other tools. If you can make someone scared to hit buttons(check), scared to block high(check. if your overheads are failing too much, they might be just blocking high, do more lows and change up the tempo), scared to get thrown due to wanting to sit tight due to all that + frame shit(check) or scared of crossups because of how tekken jumps in sfxt make that easy as hell(check), they're not going to be reacting to overheads as fast as if that was their only concern.

The fact that his overhead leads to advantage means you dont have to worry about it being blocked, because it just means more of a headache for them. For them to truly stop you, they have to react to your overhead at frame 20 or earlier, which is a tall order. They'll start hitting buttons when they see it even if it isnt early enough, which means they'll get counterhit and discouraged. And while they're focused on trying to hit you out of your overhead when it comes, you can just do throws and shit. More options make everything less reactable.

I do agree that in SFxT that mixup is difficult in a certain way; it is often either risky(unsafe overheads, throw range being so short, crossups being key for some characters although few charas can AA crossups well so i guess it isnt that risky lol) or little damage, but jin is blessed with having very good ability to keep them blocking and good reward for his overhead on both hit and block, something almost nobody has. Is his overhead reactable? Sure, but most overheads in most games are, especially if they are safe and lead into damage.

Its just like Relius your gonna beat him with down back and throw option select.

three things

1)use airdash mixup as relius. Jump as ignis starts 2d, and then mix up with jumpin/airdash before you land/land and low. The airdash before you land into j.b means they cant just block based on your landing timing. Pre-landing airdash mixups are gooood.

2)Option select in BB gets destroyed by TRMs. Run TRMs.

3)Option select in SF4/SFxT gets destroyed by frame traps. Run frame traps and fucking laugh.

As for the Projectile. No one is going to let you charge that and the hitbox is terrible.

Of course nobody is going to "let" you charge off the bat. The charging is simply a side result of you denying their jumps and dashes. At first they try reacting but you're spaced well and they get fucked. They try going under, perhaps preemptively and you sweep them or even backdash cancel their shit and punish. They end up getting cautious or end up knocked far enough that you get time to charge, or time to THREATEN a charge which causes them to trip up and get hit again. You getting to charge a full EX is a result of the flexibility that the dash cancelling/lesser charging affords you and the fact that they're going to want to observe their spacing and think about their options after getting hit away over and over. If you're bad at it, that's not the same as the tool itself being bad.(not to say that im good at it, lol)

The hitbox is fine and has caught many people on the edge of it. You may be deceived by certain charas whose air hitboxes arent as big as they look skirting it. It seems large enough from my experience with rolento.

Also, i dont know if you've noticed, but fireball hitboxes in most games are a lot worse than they look.

You cannot use his projectile like a hadou, that is for sure. It is different. It is probably matchup dependent, i wouldnt really use it against kazuya since mist step is so strong for him. But it controls space well in a way that other characters cannot.

As for the Kazuya part I'll get back to you on his damage from his overheads

There is no need. All 3 of his command normal overheads lead to no combos on hit, only knockdown, even on hit(6lk) or +1 on hit(6mk). On counterhit they may lead to more but that is something else entirely. And like I said, his specials are gimmicky as shit with regards to the overhead mixup, and same: knockdown only. Kazuya punishes downbackers "easier" than jin, but at the expense of being almost suicidal and for a piddly 70-110 damage.

as I don't actually play Kazuya as well as my friend but the restand glitch works on anyone, the infinite is based on the restand glitch but it allows Kazuya to stand his opponents up after a juggle and spend a bar to tag a partner to do a new combo while the opponent is staggered. In SfxT meter is plentiful and this happens alot.

The infinite is not the restand glitch itself. the INFINITE only works on some characters. The restand glitch works on everyone and is even in that jin video that I linked. Of course meter is plentiful, but unless it is infinite(which will only happen on certain characters vs kazuya) it is rather meaningless to spend more than 1-2 bars in a combo on such since damage scaling is so high. And again, jin can utilize this restand as well, as I demonstrated.

And fuck Jin's wave dash it less useful in neutral as there is alot less control and backdashing into punish is not happening(all though its beast in combos) and once again that overhead is much too slow and telegraphed for anything to happen.

Of course it is less useful, kazuya has the best wavedash for the most part. So you have to actually space your wavedash like everyone who isnt kazuya, so what? Not everyone has to be the best at everything to be good. I agree that the mist step overhead is fairly ass, but who cares?

Mental Alertness and Power Stance are god like moves for Defense but thats the problem with this character He's safe but has no way to bust someone open.

far st.lp is +4 on block, 5f startup

far st.mp is +5, 9f startup

cr.lp is +4 on block, 3f startup

cr.mp is +5 on block, 5f startup

cr.lk is +2 on block, 5f startup

cr. mk is +1 on block, 6f startup

2nd to last hit of his 5-hit chain, which can be 6-hit chain by starting with overhead, is +4

pressure pressure pressure so they get impatient and scared of throws

set up crossups

use throws or frame trap if they option select

pressure pressure pressure so they dont react to shit

use the two overheads he has. they will hit more often than ragna 6b.

Besides, with his various defensive attributes, great normals, good damage, good neutral(mist step, good normals, and a good projectile that can stop fireball characters from controlling space so freely? god yes) great repeatable pressure, an overhead that leads to both damage and more pressure, does he really also need even stronger mixup? It is not like most charas in BB or KOF or SF4 have tools that open up especially well compared to jin. He has better defense, better advantage, and better normals than most characters, it isnt like he also needs to have the best projectile and unreactable mixup to be good. I bet he has disgusting crossup setups as well judging by his j.hk and tekken jump arcs.

He's got defense tools with a shitty projectile and no real anti air out of leaping side kick which is once again slow as shit. If he had SSF4 Bison priority this would be okay but he doesn't.

Anti air with cr.hp(doesnt work as often as it should, i know, but welcome to most charas in this game including kazuya lol. Work on timing it i gues), with spaced projectiles,(aka prevent them from both jumping and moving forward) with thrusting uppercut if spaced, and maybe with power stance(perhaps not so much anti air as absorb their attack and then either punish their landing attack or go for a mist step/throw mixup). Random idea: try median line destruction, haha. Maybe it has a silly-good hitbox in that regard.

Kazuya also has trouble anti airing IIRC. Honestly, a lot of the cast does, especially against tekken characters. I dont see how this helps you argument relative to most characters.

And again, your opinion of the projectile may be based on you misusing it or the matchups you are commonly facing.

I hope I'm wrong about him and I will play him because he's sexy as fuck, but lets just say i'm not blown away by him and He is defeated by the all mighty downback

if he is defeated by downback, then so are all the characters I listed above.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Mightfo

[Lich]

Relius' overhead isn't shit simply because of its speed. Relius' overhead is shit because he has a giant third arm come out the top of his head and then strike down at you. It's the easiest overhead in the game to react to. On top of Relius not having a single normal that is (+) on block it's extremely easy to punish. Even Ignis has nothing thats + on block. So there is literally no fear in punishing this overhead when you see that it's blatantly coming down on you. I haven't played SFxT but I'm assuming its the same kind of deal. Relius might as well not even have an overhead, you're not hitting anyone with that anytime soon. Yeah.... again thought I'd give in my two cents about Relius. lol

Edit: Aside from Relius' special moves, that is. They are in fact plus on block. Hope you like burning all your Ignis meter to get in a shitty overhead, though. lol

Edited March 16, 2012 by Lich

[Chickzama]

Then not having any meter to combo off of said terrible overhead.

Poor Chibius Clover...

P.S. Oiii, Lich Face, you should move to Texas.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Chickzama

[Mightfo]

also, gordeau is cool but im mostly hype for carmine in UNIB :D

Relius' overhead isn't shit simply because of its speed. Relius' overhead is shit because he has a giant third arm come out the top of his head and then strike down at you. It's the easiest overhead in the game to react to. On top of Relius not having a single normal that is (+) on block it's extremely easy to punish. Even Ignis has nothing thats + on block. So there is literally no fear in punishing this overhead when you see that it's blatantly coming down on you. I haven't played SFxT but I'm assuming its the same kind of deal. Relius might as well not even have an overhead, you're not hitting anyone with that anytime soon. Yeah.... again thought I'd give in my two cents about Relius. lol

Edit: Aside from Relius' special moves, that is. They are in fact plus on block. Hope you like burning all your Ignis meter to get in a shitty overhead, though. lol

Yeah, it is hard to quantify visual reactability but relius's 6a does certainly seem extra obvious. Rachel's 4b is 2f slower but I feel like the animation isnt quite as obvious so it is not as awful. I dont feel like jin's overhead has this problem but i could be wrong.(I guess it might also depend on the person for what visual cues really make an overhead obvious to them..?)

However, relius still has easy to set up airdash mixup, so you dont really need the overhead.

On top of Relius not having a single normal that is (+) on block it's extremely easy to punish. Even Ignis has nothing thats + on block. So there is literally no fear in punishing this overhead when you see that it's blatantly coming down on you.

Um, not quite. Relius 2d/5d is + because ignis acts completely separately from relius in that situation, sort of like how guile's sonic boom is really + from max range because by that point he is out of recovery and the fireball is effectively a big ball of blockstun that lets guile dash in and do whatever. In the same sense, ignis/relius 2d/5d is always + because relius has no recovery or anything for it. The problem with that with regard to 6a is if you set up 5d/2d to arrive in the middle of 6a to prevent them from hitting you out of it, it triggers blockfreeze in the middle of the animation, effectively making relius 6a appear even longer, sort of like how lambda players have to space 4b so that the first hit whiffs so it isnt super reactable. So it is really easy to make them not want to try to hit you out of 6a, but that doesnt make it a useful mixup because you could have burned that ignis meter to continue pressure in other ways, like a jump/airdash setup or some more corner push or something. Also, none of relius's specials act independently of him unlike 5d/2d/4d, and they're all very reactable except for 214a, so using them mid-string to gain advantage is a bad idea.

Besides, nobody has a normal that is + enough on block to prevent their overhead from being easy to punish, since nobody has a normal that is like +12 or more, so that point is irrelevant.(However, you do have to react earlier to hit someone out of an overhead in BB than in an SF game since the fastest move in BB is going to be 5f or 6f instead of 3f or 4f.)(Plus, discouraging someone from mashing in BB or other games is somewhat easier than in games without chains even when you dont have + Frame normals, since you can just delay chain cancels. You look like you're ending your string on jin 5c, then you do a late gatling into 2c and they get counterhit. It is like a rekka mixup.)

[Mightfo]

Nevermind about jet! We'll have 4 setups.

My 360+hdtv

My ps3+other hdtv

Blackjack's

DG's

and melty guys may still come but probably not

Expected people:

Me

Jet

Oldboy

Frigid

Divided

Edge

Boombox

Blackjack

Darkgeese

Metal

Probably:

Transient

Eric

Oso

Edited March 17, 2012 by Mightfo

[WOOF X7]

Can anyone pick up jet so that he can bring a setup?

Ignore most of that tier list imo, but i agree that yoshimitsu and paul are bad. Sorry. Paul has some nice advantage and his light mortar punch or whatever is +3 on block but seems underwhelming in general and mortar punch is slow. He just has trouble in neutral and doesnt get that much reward for it, doesnt stand out in very many ways. Yoshimitsu's hitboxes are ass and has trouble mixing people up, although his j.hp and a few of his specials are strong at beating some things in neutral, all of his specials are unsafe. His lack of safeness, bad normals, and bad pressure isnt really made up for by the amazing "priority" on windmill and j.hp, especially since windmill is so risky.

.....

23f is a reasonable overhead speed. There is a gigantic difference between 23f and 26f, just like between 17(barely reactable) and 20(somewhat reactable). Have you ever been hit by bang's 5c or ragna's 6b or ragna gauntlet hades? 24f. Litchi 6a? 22f. Noel 6b? 24f. Haz 6a? 22f. Mu 6b? 22f. Ky 5d? 22f. Bridget 6k? 23f. Fiona 6b? 22f. These are all overheads which you will see good players get hit by frequently. In japan. Are you going to be silly and call the reactions of top players in japan bad?

I already sat down and explained to you why it is better off in terms of reward for hitting and reward for it being blocked as well compared to most other overheads in the game.

except they have to react with hitting by frame 20 to hit you out of it, or they will get counterhit. Do you think people react to 20f overheads at a high rate? If not, people arent going to hit you out of your overhead well. And if they cant do that, they have to deal with more pressure after blocking.

the whole purpose of pressure IS mix-up. The fact that jin has so much advantage on normals causes them to focus on trying to get out and not get set up with throws instead of focusing on blocking high. Overheads do not exist in a vacuum, they are relative to all of your other tools. If you can make someone scared to hit buttons(check), scared to block high(check. if your overheads are failing too much, they might be just blocking high, do more lows and change up the tempo), scared to get thrown due to wanting to sit tight due to all that + frame shit(check) or scared of crossups because of how tekken jumps in sfxt make that easy as hell(check), they're not going to be reacting to overheads as fast as if that was their only concern.

The fact that his overhead leads to advantage means you dont have to worry about it being blocked, because it just means more of a headache for them. For them to truly stop you, they have to react to your overhead at frame 20 or earlier, which is a tall order. They'll start hitting buttons when they see it even if it isnt early enough, which means they'll get counterhit and discouraged. And while they're focused on trying to hit you out of your overhead when it comes, you can just do throws and shit. More options make everything less reactable.

I do agree that in SFxT that mixup is difficult in a certain way; it is often either risky(unsafe overheads, throw range being so short, crossups being key for some characters although few charas can AA crossups well so i guess it isnt that risky lol) or little damage, but jin is blessed with having very good ability to keep them blocking and good reward for his overhead on both hit and block, something almost nobody has. Is his overhead reactable? Sure, but most overheads in most games are, especially if they are safe and lead into damage.

three things

1)use airdash mixup as relius. Jump as ignis starts 2d, and then mix up with jumpin/airdash before you land/land and low. The airdash before you land into j.b means they cant just block based on your landing timing. Pre-landing airdash mixups are gooood.

2)Option select in BB gets destroyed by TRMs. Run TRMs.

3)Option select in SF4/SFxT gets destroyed by frame traps. Run frame traps and fucking laugh.

Of course nobody is going to "let" you charge off the bat. The charging is simply a side result of you denying their jumps and dashes. At first they try reacting but you're spaced well and they get fucked. They try going under, perhaps preemptively and you sweep them or even backdash cancel their shit and punish. They end up getting cautious or end up knocked far enough that you get time to charge, or time to THREATEN a charge which causes them to trip up and get hit again. You getting to charge a full EX is a result of the flexibility that the dash cancelling/lesser charging affords you and the fact that they're going to want to observe their spacing and think about their options after getting hit away over and over. If you're bad at it, that's not the same as the tool itself being bad.(not to say that im good at it, lol)

The hitbox is fine and has caught many people on the edge of it. You may be deceived by certain charas whose air hitboxes arent as big as they look skirting it. It seems large enough from my experience with rolento.

Also, i dont know if you've noticed, but fireball hitboxes in most games are a lot worse than they look.

You cannot use his projectile like a hadou, that is for sure. It is different. It is probably matchup dependent, i wouldnt really use it against kazuya since mist step is so strong for him. But it controls space well in a way that other characters cannot.

There is no need. All 3 of his command normal overheads lead to no combos on hit, only knockdown, even on hit(6lk) or +1 on hit(6mk). On counterhit they may lead to more but that is something else entirely. And like I said, his specials are gimmicky as shit with regards to the overhead mixup, and same: knockdown only. Kazuya punishes downbackers "easier" than jin, but at the expense of being almost suicidal and for a piddly 70-110 damage.

The infinite is not the restand glitch itself. the INFINITE only works on some characters. The restand glitch works on everyone and is even in that jin video that I linked. Of course meter is plentiful, but unless it is infinite(which will only happen on certain characters vs kazuya) it is rather meaningless to spend more than 1-2 bars in a combo on such since damage scaling is so high. And again, jin can utilize this restand as well, as I demonstrated.

Of course it is less useful, kazuya has the best wavedash for the most part. So you have to actually space your wavedash like everyone who isnt kazuya, so what? Not everyone has to be the best at everything to be good. I agree that the mist step overhead is fairly ass, but who cares?

far st.lp is +4 on block, 5f startup

far st.mp is +5, 9f startup

cr.lp is +4 on block, 3f startup

cr.mp is +5 on block, 5f startup

cr.lk is +2 on block, 5f startup

cr. mk is +1 on block, 6f startup

2nd to last hit of his 5-hit chain, which can be 6-hit chain by starting with overhead, is +4

pressure pressure pressure so they get impatient and scared of throws

set up crossups

use throws or frame trap if they option select

pressure pressure pressure so they dont react to shit

use the two overheads he has. they will hit more often than ragna 6b.

Besides, with his various defensive attributes, great normals, good damage, good neutral(mist step, good normals, and a good projectile that can stop fireball characters from controlling space so freely? god yes) great repeatable pressure, an overhead that leads to both damage and more pressure, does he really also need even stronger mixup? It is not like most charas in BB or KOF or SF4 have tools that open up especially well compared to jin. He has better defense, better advantage, and better normals than most characters, it isnt like he also needs to have the best projectile and unreactable mixup to be good. I bet he has disgusting crossup setups as well judging by his j.hk and tekken jump arcs.

Anti air with cr.hp(doesnt work as often as it should, i know, but welcome to most charas in this game including kazuya lol. Work on timing it i gues), with spaced projectiles,(aka prevent them from both jumping and moving forward) with thrusting uppercut if spaced, and maybe with power stance(perhaps not so much anti air as absorb their attack and then either punish their landing attack or go for a mist step/throw mixup). Random idea: try median line destruction, haha. Maybe it has a silly-good hitbox in that regard.

Kazuya also has trouble anti airing IIRC. Honestly, a lot of the cast does, especially against tekken characters. I dont see how this helps you argument relative to most characters.

And again, your opinion of the projectile may be based on you misusing it or the matchups you are commonly facing.

if he is defeated by downback, then so are all the characters I listed above.

The problem with the overhead is that its so easy to watch for because thats all you have to fear.It's pretty easy to react to since Jin takes a full step forward and raises his leg 90 degrees before ax kicking. Throws are so easy to beat in SF4/SFxT that im not going to be doing LOL +frames tick throw hardly at all and when all I have is that stupid ass overhead they are going to watch for that shit.And Random Jump crossups in the middle of that pressure... just don't work all that often. But hey whatever man I have my opinion on this guy and you have yours and since we're arguing in circles lets just agree to disagree.

Edited March 16, 2012 by WOOF X7

[KeyBlaz]

Don't know if y'all seen this but I can't support this.

FREE

Nine new gem packs totaling 60+ new gems

Replay analyzer

Tournament support for gem selection

Three new quick combo pre-sets

Three additional gem loadout slots

Three new color packs with four colors each

PAID

Swap Costumes – $1.00 (80 MSP) each or in two $13.00 (1040 MSP) Street Fighter and/or Tekken packs

DLC characters – $20.00 (1600 MSP) for all 12 new fighter

...I calculated the full experience of SFXT to be worth 106 bux...I don't think its worth it in the end.

[Mightfo]

Don't know if y'all seen this but I can't support this.

FREE

Nine new gem packs totaling 60+ new gems

Replay analyzer

Tournament support for gem selection

Three new quick combo pre-sets

Three additional gem loadout slots

Three new color packs with four colors each

PAID

Swap Costumes – $1.00 (80 MSP) each or in two $13.00 (1040 MSP) Street Fighter and/or Tekken packs

DLC characters – $20.00 (1600 MSP) for all 12 new fighter

...I calculated the full experience of SFXT to be worth 106 bux...I don't think its worth it in the end.

the dlc voices for bb probably add up to a lot too. same for sc5 dlc. costumes dont really matter like those dlc :P

[KeyBlaz]

you would be right so barring stupid dlc that has nothing to do with combat its still 80 bux for SFXT full experience

[Edge Reaper]

Soul Calibur 5 DlC is ridiculously stupid. Just saying.

In any case, I'm glad they're deciding just to hand all the characters out in one pack instead of the Marvel style of $5 a pop. THAT would be highway robbery.

And don't start with Blazblue considering all the DLC that was paid for in the original BBCS was unlockable in BBCSE anyway.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Edge Reaper

[Mightfo]

you would be right so barring stupid dlc that has nothing to do with combat its still 80 bux for SFXT full experience

i considering enjoyable, interesting fighting games to be worth far more than the normal price of video games so that's whatever for me, lol

[iw2ma]

i considering enjoyable, interesting fighting games to be worth far more than the normal price of video games so that's whatever for me, lol

So why are you associating this with SFxT? Because it's obviously not interesting or enjoyable.

[dioxideUniversa]

land of salt

[Mr Oso]

I can has ride?

I actually have a deb card now so. . . .yeah . . . .

If its outta the way dont trip ill just be at tha crib chill

EDIT: Eye Bee on Legacy And Alma

Edited March 17, 2012 by Mr Oso

[Mightfo]

who has picked you up before, oso? i'll text people

So why are you associating this with SFxT? Because it's obviously not interesting or enjoyable.

put some effort into your trolling. I already knew what your post was gonna say when I saw it was quoting me. If you're not going to try to be funny then dont waste space in the thread, please~

Edited March 17, 2012 by Mightfo