[CS1] Bang vs Makoto

[DaiAndOh]

Makoto is coming to the US in the coming week. Wanted to make this before I forgot..

[kilabeep3]

bang vs makoto huh?

ok i guess ill start off small for a second.

on her teleport shadow move where theres three of them she can be beat out by 5B so if you see her use it her follow ups better be invul cause 5b will eat it alive.

2C to supa crash doesnt work on her so combos that require that will whiff.

her main blockstreings are pretty much like bangs and rragna just IB and try to get out of pressure and play it safe when you get knocked down.

her damage isnt too scary but watch out for her loops and resets she can be a pain in the ass.

other than that stick and move.

your a LOT more mobile and powerful than her so use that to your full advantage.

oh and i dont know if it was just me but when ur in FRKZ she is basically dead cause she doesnt have much pokes outside of sweep range except for her super.

so frkz bang can cause some serious pressure on her.

[rei-Scarred]

as soon as she hits 5C block high and block 2C on reaction. If it weren't for parry loop this match would be so bad for Makoto lol, but since no one can do it online... well yeah poor her

[Akira-Shiro]

Not quite her 2a & 5a both hav god range like tager & her shadow clone thing she has 3 one for A attacks B, & C each with a diff height & she can punish any failed attempt wit J.3C if bang trys to attack.

Her best tool during a block string isnt her mixup like bang & rags. Its her lock down if u dont barrier all the time she isn't going anywhere , like bang her 2/5a are godly so she can also poke an oki out of any knock down..... & Mr.Bang is lacking a special tool that she has... A Dp do keep in mind she can IB into her Dp.

So bang needs to play it smart all the time, & during FRKZ she can chase u down wit the shadow clones because u wouldn't know which one to block >.> all bang got it 5a <.< she got that to & she has her loop meaning if anything this match up is 6-4 in Makotos favor

[huey253]

wut bang having a unfavorable matchup in BBCS?

i think we are playing different games...

[Seifuuku]

i swear that if you IB 5C (1) or 5c (2) it is a free punish unless they do something like DP or that dash back and hit you with a drive (lightning arrow or something, i dunno..)

[Akira-Shiro]

Wat makoto u playing she can go straight into her clone form for baiting stuff... ill 5b>5CC 214B (the clone thats in the middle) if u attack i get a free punish.... >.> if u dont J.2B and reset the pressure. An Makoto Platium Valkenhyn & Mu wernt put into the equation when making the tier list soo yeah they can force S-tiers to have a bad match- up

[Seifuuku]

any part of 5c to 6b or 2b is interrupt able by bang's 5a on instant block of 5c (not sure about 2c.. might be a bit too low). if they asteroid vision b/c (jump over you) then 5a will whiff but you should still be in advantage. if they try to cross you up with asteroid vision on ground, 5a should ch them before or after they cross up. b/c asteroid vision into j2c.. i think you'll recover in time to guard point/backdash the j2c

i'll mess around with her the next time i get a chance to try her.

[Ben Reed]

I dunno about 6-4 Makoto's favor, but I'd buy it being as even as 5.5-4.5 Bang. Bitch's jabs are almost as annoying as yours, she does decent damage if she can finish the loop (or even the level 3 D loops in the corner), and her pressure actually takes some thought and patience to escape. Ultimately I think IB 5A will put Bang ahead, but if she's played right, she seems to be nowhere near free for Bang.

I can't believe I didn't think of barrier block versus her strings; I've been trained so hard against using it (I initially used it way too much and started getting guard crushed by Arakune, back when I played Tager) that I often forget it exists unless I'm blocking something that I know does chip damage. If I want to try barrier to get some breathing room, should I do it from the start of the string (say something like 5B 5CC), or can I wait a bit before barrier-ing (like around the second C in 5CC) and still get some decent space?

I flailed my way to death against a mashy Makoto last night making a lot of mistakes (mostly panicking because I kept failing to IB the second hit of 5CC and kept trying command throw after D nails, which lost to mash 2A...and I didn't adapt because I was getting so mad at losing to this particular player that I kinda lost my head). I'm going into practice mode tomorrow to figure out what I did wrong (I already have several ideas after reading this thread, most of them involving the lack of IB 5A), and after I do my own homework I think I'll run it by you guys to make sure I set things up properly and am reading the results properly.

EDIT: For clarification, my experience is 100% based on face-to-face play. I have yet to play this game online.

[Ben Reed]

This is all basic punishment crap; I haven't played enough good Makotos yet to comment on strategy and tactics.

Random stuff I tried:

- Her 6B (overhead punch) is unpunishable even on IB. Nothing earth-shattering; it just surprised me is all.

- IBing the second hit of her 5CC (or 6BC) is hard due to the surprising speed at which it becomes active (for a heavy move), but if you can do it, you can 5A punish her and you're free. Start a combo and move on to a bright new tomorrow.

- Best answers for her 3C depend on the range, speed, and grounded/aerial state from which you spotted it.

- Versus anticipated blockstring into 236A, 5A or Daifunka the startup. Thanks Reioumu for pointing out what should have been the first thing I thought of.

Hey, there's room to MOVE in this post now!

[Dacidbro]

I don't even understand this

What distance are you throwing Dnails at? If it's a point blank 2B tk dnails you have very little motivation to use anything but d5A, since that's the strongest start of mix anyway, meaning any time your opponent mashes like a scrub you get a 3k combo..

If farther than that your 5B should easily beat her 2A's hit box.

Daifunka is a horrible choice, especially if she's jabbing, as no flutter jab will ever commit enough to get hit and you'll waste 50 meter getting punished, and similarly 2D is horrifically risky for absolutely no reason. :/

[Reioumu]

I'm probably the guy here in the Bang boards who knows these pair of boobs the best since I actually play her <_<.

Makoto has answers to 2D. Even though she lacks a low, she can just do 214A~D to make you whiff and punish with a fatal counter. That or she can parry it.

Her only fast low is 2B, which can be used after 5A, 2A, or 5B. So most of the time, you should be blocking high during blockstrings.

After 214AC, she has a high-low mixup. No matter what the high hit is MORE dangerous. If you get hit by the low, they just sweep you into oki, but they can get an ok-ish combo with RC.

Parry loop pressure. I've told the Makoto boards about this over and over again, but no one uses it (other than me it seems :/) d.2A 2B 6A PC. even if you IB this, you cannot punish with 5A. they can use 6B out of that d.2A if you're expecting them to use 2B so that's a high/low mixup right there. Even if you barrier, you will not escape the pressure. What you can do is something like IB backdash, but they can always do multiple 2As, use 5B instead of 2B to make 5B 6A airtight and the such. You probably won't have to deal with this because Makotos just want to scrub it out most of the time, but this is her strongest pressure.

Watch out for tick-throws. They can knock you into the corner where they can deal massive damage. 2A -> throw, 2B -> throw, 2AAA -> throw etc. Just be ready to break throws.

236A blockstring reset, get ready to block more :/. You can mash this though and the orb won't come out. So if you think they'll use it, mash that 5A.

[Dacidbro]

More importantly, learning this matchup deeply is relatively pointless as they're going to change her. Parry loop is removed post-patch.

[Reioumu]

More importantly, learning this matchup deeply is relatively pointless as they're going to change her. Parry loop is removed post-patch.

5B will be faster. Watch out. Makoto's new 5B will be like Bang's current 5B, maybe better?

And this will help people learn the matchup for now until the patch comes out in a few months, so there is still plenty of time.

We're gonna need new first posts/topics anyway when the patch hits for the matchups.

[Dacidbro]

Sure, learn the basics, but don't go too deep. Lol.

[Ben Reed]

I don't even understand this

What distance are you throwing Dnails at? If it's a point blank 2B tk dnails you have very little motivation to use anything but d5A, since that's the strongest start of mix anyway, meaning any time your opponent mashes like a scrub you get a 3k combo..

If farther than that your 5B should easily beat her 2A's hit box.

I always do TK D nails point-blank (usually from 5A 5B 2B).

I don't pretend that this is anything more than a personal shortcoming rather than an actual matchup hurdle in advanced play (I hope I included enough disclaimers to that effect in my posts), I just tend to brain fart frequently after D nails and always go for raw tick throw because I'm deathly afraid of telegraphing myself too much with the 5A check (where I think I will reflexively go for the same followup every time and sooner or later get called very badly on it...this is another personal problem I'm working to address).

Daifunka is a horrible choice, especially if she's jabbing, as no flutter jab will ever commit enough to get hit and you'll waste 50 meter getting punished, and similarly 2D is horrifically risky for absolutely no reason. :/

Yeah, I probably was unclear on that point. I was only considering this really as an answer to this particular Makoto player (he's not total scrub-level, he can do several reps of the parry loop combo now [enough to get 50 heat and finish with super], can finish 90% of his D loop combos...he's just a little excitable and jab-happy is all and that throws slow-thinking cowards like myself, who wouldn't do the same thing in his situation [where we didn't know what to do, which I don't], for a loop...yes, that projection complex is another problem I'm working on).

I only suggested Daifunka/2D for players of a similar disposition (I obviously wasn't clear enough on that count) more as a psych-warfare weapon than anything else; punish terrible unadaptive mashing instead of smart noncommittal interrupt mashing to scare the bejesus out of them and make them uncertain about mashing even when it would work. I certainly didn't intend to prop it up as a legitimate punish for advanced play.

But in light of your point I'd definitely take Daifunka off the list, as I'm pretty sure the super flash + Daifunka startup + short 2A recovery would mean that this particular player would have plenty of time to react, stop mashing and block.

Makoto has answers to 2D. Even though she lacks a low, she can just do 214A~D to make you whiff and punish with a fatal counter. That or she can parry it.

I realize that much, hence why I didn't cite 2D as a true punish -- merely something to consider if you think the Makoto player lacks the ability to bait it.

236A blockstring reset, get ready to block more :/. You can mash this though and the orb won't come out. So if you think they'll use it, mash that 5A.

...Doh.

I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier; if the startup is long enough to jump block, 5A interrupt should have been obvious.

One last thing: Thank you both (Dacidbro and Reioumu) for posting in this thread to correct me. Honestly, the stuff I posted was mostly intended to lure in people like you guys to correct me so that some high-grade knowledge could finally be dropped in this thread. (Does that count as trolling?) You guys DID clear a lot of stuff up for me and I'm grateful for the input.

I'll delete my post on 2A so it doesn't clutter the thread. Looking back, I should also pare down the old one just to the stuff I got right.

[Reioumu]

Her 2A is godlike though.

You gotta mess with it.

She can reset her blockstrings with 2B since there isn't a lot of recovery on it. Watch out for staggers like a staggered 5CC, which is VERY dangerous if you get hit on CH.

[Dacidbro]

One last thing: Thank you both (Dacidbro and Reioumu) for posting in this thread to correct me. Honestly, the stuff I posted was mostly intended to lure in people like you guys to correct me so that some high-grade knowledge could finally be dropped in this thread. (Does that count as trolling?) You guys DID clear a lot of stuff up for me and I'm grateful for the input.

Lol godlike.

If you ever want to talk about things in depth and get real feedback, you can always send me a message. Admittedly this is a matchup I know very little about, but I'm always willing to bounce info back and forth. Talking about BB constantly is one of the reasons I got decent.

[Ben Reed]

That 2A IS pretty damn impressive. I still hate that move (slightly less as my homework over the weekend has taught me more about what it can and can't stop), but damned if I don't respect it. The range alone is astounding.

This matchup will change for BBCS2 in terms of what Bang can do to her, certainly, but if the only significant change to Makoto is no more parry cancel, I don't see too much changing on her end. She won't be able to sodomize people midscreen from zero heat anymore, and her blockstrings won't be quite as godlike as the one Reioumu described, but she still has plenty of tools to propel people towards the corner, where she will still probably do quite decent damage by way of her level 3 D combos (I want to call them "D loops" but of course they're not really loops at all). I think it's anything BUT futile to build a knowledge base for CS1 Makoto.

[Reioumu]

Uh, she got one HUGE buff which was the fact that 5B was buffed in speed AND it's jump cancellable on hit + block.

[DaiAndOh]

Uh, she got one HUGE buff which was the fact that 5B was buffed in speed AND it's jump cancellable on hit + block.

That's not guaranteed to be final though.

Parry loop removal is something that probably is though, because it's removal imo states that ArcSys doesn't like it to begin with.

[Reioumu]

If they put parry loop back in (100% sure they wont.) I would laugh so hard.

[Ken-oh]

Anyone got anything recent to add for this matchup? I'm struggling. That fucking airdrop tail move gives me nightmare. Nothing beats it, safe on IB, seems she can just chuck it out and if it connects with you in any way she gets a free pressure string.

[Reioumu]

Anyone got anything recent to add for this matchup? I'm struggling. That fucking airdrop tail move gives me nightmare. Nothing beats it, safe on IB, seems she can just chuck it out and if it connects with you in any way she gets a free pressure string.

Don't get hit by it? The angle is really steep.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Reioumu

[Justice7541]

I've found jump IB works pretty well if they're just spamming the taildrop on you over and over. I think it might even work on normal block since you recover from blockstun before she even touches the ground.