[CS1] Makoto vs. Hakumen

[Eshi]

there really isn't a reason to try 3Cing hakumen unless it's against bad players that spam 4C. 4C is annoying but it's not actually threatening, just be patient and IB it for heat.

[Eshi]

Okay, since it hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet: 214A-C-A > dash 5A will combo against Hakumen (and Tager) if they're crouching. This allows Makoto to push her midscreen damage higher on a lot of her midscreen BNBs, so learn it and abuse it in this match-up. It's the difference between doing a piddly 2-3k damage combo that sacrifices oki and a 4-5k combo that ends in knockdown.

[geobuster]

Okay, since it hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet: 214A-C-A > dash 5A will combo against Hakumen (and Tager) if they're crouching. This allows Makoto to push her midscreen damage higher on a lot of her midscreen BNBs, so learn it and abuse it in this match-up. It's the difference between doing a piddly 2-3k damage combo that sacrifices oki and a 4-5k combo that ends in knockdown.

I would like to add that 6B forces crouching on a grounded opponent and that 6B > 214A-C-A > 2D (lvl3) also works...

[DJHUOSHEN]

I would like to add that 6B forces crouching on a grounded opponent and that 6B > 214A-C-A > 2D (lvl3) also works...

Only works on Hak and Tager. If you all want more info on some Tager/Hakumen specific combos, refer to the combo section.

Pure patience game. If I had to define it, whoever is doing well is the one who is moving the other into the corner. DO NOTE that Hak's drives will gladly put you behind him if you have him cornered. Oki game is mad dangerous against wakeup drives. I'd do 1-2 Oki set ups then see if I can bait a drive, after I confirm what he does on recovery. Hak fights really depend on how well you can read his drive use which is pretty much true for anyone fighting against Hak. It's pretty hard to slip his swings, as most have a wide or long arc, so focus less on using tricky, evasive moves like 3C or 214CD and focus more on just trying to force him into the corner, where you can get big corner damage. Parry his air dash attempts in. If he doesn't swing or he attempts to bait you into a drive you should not be at a disadvantage.

Both chars do big corner damage, do not get cornered by Hak. Otherwise have fun.

[Nini Heart]

Only thing going for Haku in this matchup imo is that he can counter orb oki. You can do some ghetto orb setups if you sense a parry like super jump C to counter his parry or shit like that. I like using 6B>214A~A for corner mixup more in this matchup.

Parry like mad his 4C at max range. Don't do it when he's in 3C range. You're just gonna get fucked.

Parry like mad his J.C and generally when he's in the air. A lot of hakus like to airdash into your 6A range and hotaru for a free FC or J.D for free combo. Parry beats that shit.

214A~C~A means overall midscreen damage against haku is much higher than against other characters.

I.B is very important here, since if you ib some shit, you can punish with 2a into 4k because of 214A~C~A. You can I.B his Zantetsu(you can actually interrupt this with 236236D fatal if you IB the first hit!) and 6B overhead for free punishes, you can i.b his gurren into 2A too.

Parrying on his wake up is also a good option since it beats hotaru and counters.

214B/C>Barrier are good for closing distance. Don't be predictable with your blockstrings as you'll get countered.

I used to think zoning Hakus were annoying. Then I learned to parry those 4Cs and J.Cs. Makes a lot of difference.

Even match-up at worst, slightly in Makoto's favour at best. Parry just make his zoning tools useless.

[mAc Chaos]

Only thing going for Haku in this matchup imo is that he can counter orb oki. You can do some ghetto orb setups if you sense a parry like super jump C to counter his parry or shit like that. I like using 6B>214A~A for corner mixup more in this matchup.

You can't really do anything to his counter if it gets activated by an orb. It's invincible all the way through, so if you try to hit him on the first frame he is vulnerable, he could just counter again.

[Nini Heart]

You can't really do anything to his counter if it gets activated by an orb. It's invincible all the way through, so if you try to hit him on the first frame he is vulnerable, he could just counter again.

I don't think so. It says recovery frames in the frame data. And i'm pretty sure if Blade could block, he wouldn't really be eating a 5k combo for the hell of it. I'm pretty sure there's a gap where you can punish it.

[mAc Chaos]

I don't think so. It says recovery frames in the frame data. And i'm pretty sure if Blade could block, he wouldn't really be eating a 5k combo for the hell of it. I'm pretty sure there's a gap where you can punish it.

Nah, the recovery is if you WHIFF the counter. If it's activated, it's invincible all the way through. He probably is just getting confused by your actions and not countering properly. Nobody said he had to react perfectly. :P

[Nini Heart]

So the frame data is wrong?

Edited March 3, 2011 by Nini Heart

[mAc Chaos]

No, you're just misinterpreting it.

The "active" part is when the counter can reach out and grab the opponent. The recovery is after that, but before he can do anything else. However, he's invincible throughout the entire thing.

If this wasn't true, you wouldn't be able to 6D or 2D through Nu's sword super, since you would get hit out of it before you could do another counter. But since you're invincible all the way through, you can do another counter as soon as you recover and never actually enter a state where you can be hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLX4uZIB0rM#t=0m38s

And during this entire time the opponent will get caught by the counter if they come near it.

Edited March 3, 2011 by mAc Chaos

[Nini Heart]

Ah okay I get it now. Well well, counters are even more broken than I thought.

[mAc Chaos]

Well, it would kind of suck if you go through the trouble of LANDING a counter and then getting punished for it. It's whiffing them that kills you.

[Nini Heart]

Well technically, you're not landing it. You're just activating it.

[mAc Chaos]

Same thing. Player ran into the counter.

If anything, it's letting the opponent off easy since it's possible to walk into the counter but still escape if you dodge his arm.

[Sophisticat]

Yup, going to have to eat my words on my last post in this thread. This is an even matchup. I'm going to have to learn this matchup properly now.

Nini, note on your info stuff:

- IB -> 2a works on Gurren because I wasn't using it as a frame trap. It cancels into any special of his.

Also, I think the neutral game is .5 Haku favor here simply because of the range on his normals. Play me when I can use a Ps3 pad, and we'll see if I'm right on this one.

[Nini Heart]

- IB -> 2a works on Gurren because I wasn't using it as a frame trap. It cancels into any special of his.

Yeah but unless you cancel it into TK Hotaru(can you even do that?)IB>2A/5A will interrupt anything you throw out unless you have something faster than 5 frames or another special of his has invincibility.

[OmniSScythe]

Hey Hakumen players, should I post the almighty forbidden secret that would bodied 98% of the Makoto players in till CS2 is release?

[HiagoX]

Hey Hakumen players, should I post the almighty forbidden secret that would bodied 98% of the Makoto players in till CS2 is release?

You wouldn't dare.

[mAc Chaos]

j.D?

Blocking?

Picking Makoto?

:P

[Nini Heart]

Hey Hakumen players, should I post the almighty forbidden secret that would bodied 98% of the Makoto players in till CS2 is release?

J.D?

[OmniSScythe]

You wouldn't dare.

I was going to wait till CS2 to post it in the Haku thread to poke fun at them. lol

j.D? You wish :P

Blocking? Nope.avi

Picking Makoto? Legit answer ;_;

:P

J.D?

See above

[mAc Chaos]

IB > 2A.

[OmniSScythe]

Not at all, here's a hint: You don't have to block (for long), you might not even have to play "what if's" when going for it.

[mAc Chaos]

Sounds like a bad idea. :P

[OmniSScythe]

You're close, it's comes from a generally bad idea for Haku but... it works.