The even NEWER North Carolina Thread

[Villainous]

So what happened yesterday Austin? Did you mixup forever and create rage?

[Zoogstin]

I'm trying to make myself feel better about how stupid Carl is. Great pokes, great mixup, great damage, and a doll that punches things.

[Villainous]

I hope that double character design NEVER makes it into another game. They're not fun to fight like... ever.

Match = don't get knocked down / sandwiched then HOPE YOU CAN BLOCK RIGHT. Those characters are always dumb. Eddie, Carl, the girl who's name I forgot in Arcana.... yeah. 2 heads are better than one.

[Zoogstin]

Bang, Litchi, Hazama are apparently more broke...

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I mean, most of my complaints about Carl point to him being very, very un-fun to fight. I don't even think he has a solid advantage in that matchup, it's just incredibly stupid and boring when both players know what's going on and how to play the match. Like, I want to level my Hazama up further just so I don't have to play that match with Ragna.

Dale, as a player my only negative thought of you is that you get angry/frustrated way too easily. I have the same problem and it only makes it harder for you to learn when you're trying to pick up new games. Otherwise, I don't think you're necessarily a bad player, you're just in the learning phase still.

[Villainous]

Yeah I pretty much agree with Blake on both points.

Didn't say Carl was particularly broker than the current top tier but I do think it's just not fun to fight. It's like.... TVC original Karas "god damnit" kind of.

And Dale I don't think you're a bad player, you just need to stick with it and stop telling us you suck lol. Just keep playing. I think you would do good to play more online because when you're just learning, it's hard to get in the back to back matches to learn at a gathering because of having to wait in rotations.

Large gatherings are terrriiiible for learning on new players.

[PacStrife]

Jon- if you really cared about community growth then you would stop trolling new players everytime you think you can get away with it. (reference to just "playing around" with people in Blazblue) Yes I know your not the only one, just wondering if you think that'll help the community grow?

If you want to play Roski in person then why don't you drive to him? (Sorry but it erks me a little when someone who does not drive to gatherings wants/expects others to drive to them)

On another small note, I have overheard Roski give you advice before and it's always the same, "block more guess less". In fact after that Vanilla tourney where you beat Roski then he came back to win you asked him what changes he made, he said "Once I realized you were just guessing with the dragons the match became a lot easier." He also just said the same thing again to you in the last post he made. It seems like you just aren't going to do what he thinks you should do to become a better player. Or how did you read those comments?

I really am not trying to give you shit here Jon. I honestly have a very hard time trying to figure out what you think and why, so I am telling you how I see it and asking for your side. Feel free to disregard this whole post if you want to.

[Villainous]

Well I understand his points of view on that because that's the sort of player he is, but he also doesn't play Fei and I don't always think his advice is valid in regards to the character. I remember he used to tell me to abuse Fei's fast walk speed or whatever in the past when he actually has shitty walk speed. It used to be fast in ST but you can actually just sort of walk away from him now and he has a lot of trouble catching up. I have a problem with overextending myself trying to catch up to people moving away from me so that's where I take a lot of my hits, which is probably the #1 reason I lost at the last tournament.

I just feel like people assume that the stuff I do is random guesses / whatevers and discredit it but when other people do it, it's good reads. I've tried just walking up to people turtling and blocking a lot and trying to play footsie but I still find myself losing in those situations, I feel like there's something else missing because to me I've always just felt like I can't catch turtles or open them up very well with Fei. I see players and I know when I'm going to lose to them just by watching them play and honestly can't formulate a way to beat certain strats. It's like... when I lose in match it's me getting counter poked / running into shit and turtled on but then everyone else sees me lose and goes

Jon + Lose = JON WAS RANDOM.

It seems like no one ever wants to attribute it to me just being outplayed, which from my end it usually feels like for me.

In regards to walk up more vs Bison, I did try that and it seemed like every time I started to move forward I'd randomly run into a scissors or something and then when I tried to bait the scissors or standing HK he just wouldn't do it or like dash forward randomly and throw me. That happens practically every time I try to play defensive, same vs Honda. Some days my reaction speed just isn't good enough to see that stuff in time. So I guess I feel like I am better at reading people and forcing them to make decisions, which I think I've done very well when people try to fight me straight up but when I get put in a situation where I have to react I start to struggle because I really just can't seem to react to some stuff ie whiff punishing in footsie or whatever. So that's why I play the way I do.

I dunno maybe there is some key feature of footsie I am missing that goes through people's heads that I haven't figured out yet. I know it has to be something. But people always say block more to me and it just seems like a "i dunno what to say but I saw you get hit a lot in our match so I guess you shoulda been blocking when you got hit" kind of response but there's reasons that go further than that as to why I wasn't blocking at that time.

As far as playing people seriously, most of the time I do. The ONLY person I dicked around on was Jimmy in that fight because he really didn't seem like he knew what he was doing yet and I didn't want to completely crush him for those brief 2 matches we had. I fought him again recently at Cheese's and he seemed to have a MUCH better grasp on the game / character so I just played for real. It's like... when we first picked up GG and would play Blake and it would just be a combo exhibition into oki and traps into more combos... you don't learn shit that way. I was still fighting serious but I was just doing stuff that didn't end in ridiculous combos and mixups, so he had more time to learn the neutral game and what he should be doing.

And as far as Roski coming up like I said I don't expect that out of him, was just irked because he sounded like he was willing to make the drive but didn't want to play anyone there (me included), when in the past I KNOW he's struggled against me. So I would think he'd want practice.. I know I do. To be blunt, it was insulting and disrespectful.

So yeah, sorry for the long post, was just trying to explain my thought process, since you asked.

[PacStrife]

Yeah that was actually exactly what I wanted. Thanks for taking the time bro.

[RoboCurse]

Playing BB online doesn't really help, it takes a while to find matches, and when it does put me up against someone, its usually somebody that's spams the same move or some level 47 jin icee festival. The lag always goofed me up too, maybe theyre lagswitch backtracing me. PARANOIA!

[Villainous]

Yeah Tager is hard to play online, too hard to instant block / spot gaps and do tagery stuff for me. Tager doesn't seem like the kind of character you can just do shit with and it'll work, there has to be a clear "i see this so I'm going to do this" kind of gameplan and I don't think that works online. You can still do his mix up game once you catch them but it's like... getting them to that point is super hard not being able to put stuff where you need it in order to get inside.

You could always play the local guys though. My matches with NC players have been good connection wise.

[Frank The Tank]

I just feel like people assume that the stuff I do is random guesses / whatevers and discredit it but when other people do it, it's good reads. I've tried just walking up to people turtling and blocking a lot and trying to play footsie but I still find myself losing in those situations, I feel like there's something else missing because to me I've always just felt like I can't catch turtles or open them up very well with Fei. I see players and I know when I'm going to lose to them just by watching them play and honestly can't formulate a way to beat certain strats. It's like... when I lose in match it's me getting counter poked / running into shit and turtled on but then everyone else sees me lose and goes

Jon + Lose = JON WAS RANDOM.

The fact that you lose so hard to downback is proof of your problem. When people just block>react, you get (more) desperate and start doing (more) unsafe shit. This is why you lose to Rick; he knows that if he blocks long enough, you'll give him what he wants.

And as far as Roski coming up like I said I don't expect that out of him, was just irked because he sounded like he was willing to make the drive but didn't want to play anyone there (me included), when in the past I KNOW he's struggled against me. So I would think he'd want practice.. I know I do. To be blunt, it was insulting and disrespectful.

Your play is the reason for this. It's common knowledge around here that learning how to beat Jon doesn't make you any better at *insert game*, it just teaches you how to beat Jon. The reason for this is that you always have this desperate feel about you when you're playing. You're throwing reckless reversals in casuals like you want to win every game, which comes at the expense of learning how to get better.

I hope you don't take that as being an offensive type of post, because it wasn't intended to be. I'm just trying to shed some light on the way that quite a few players in this state view things.

[purify]

Jon as Rodney Dangerfield,

"I GET NO RESPECT! I flamed kicked out of the house before my wife could yell at me to cut the grass, told my friends at the bar it was a good read. My elitist asshole buddy tells me 'being a manga character, I'm sure her thoughts are plenty easy to read, no surprise how she likes things shaved either".

[Villainous]

The fact that you lose so hard to downback is proof of your problem. When people just block>react, you get (more) desperate and start doing (more) unsafe shit. This is why you lose to Rick; he knows that if he blocks long enough, you'll give him what he wants.

Your play is the reason for this. It's common knowledge around here that learning how to beat Jon doesn't make you any better at *insert game*, it just teaches you how to beat Jon. The reason for this is that you always have this desperate feel about you when you're playing. You're throwing reckless reversals in casuals like you want to win every game, which comes at the expense of learning how to get better.

I hope you don't take that as being an offensive type of post, because it wasn't intended to be. I'm just trying to shed some light on the way that quite a few players in this state view things.

My problem with Rick has always been (for me) trying to get around cr.LP into hands. It seems like it outranges most of Fei's pokes and leads to much better damage. I also have issues anti airing him and pretty much get randomly headbutted / can't seem to throw or throw tech bait Rick for the life of me.

I've NEVER felt like it was random that was killing me in that match. It was more like I just couldn't play footsie with him... Honda's pokes are ridiculous considering what they give him, and LP headbutt being so hard to punish and doing what it does... that shit's just hard to fight for Fei.

Also to explain my flame kicking:

I do it during peoples block strings because, frankly, it works when mixed up and not done every time. I try to stop when I see that it doesn't and try NOT to do it if I don't have meter. I do it with a slight delay after certain attacks to beat retaliation and throw techs, which works amazingly well. cr.LK .... wait.... flame kick will almost always hit a throw tech. I know another move would work for that purpose but with a flame kick it also covers jumps and a host of other moves, as well as not having to worry about if I waited too long to bait it, so I'm more likely to hit their tech attempt and not get counter hit.

I do chicken wing to:

Beat standing pokes.

Beat Throws.

Beat backdash.

Escape from cross ups.

Catch jump outs.

But yeah I've been trying to play Chun / Rose more lately because of their lack of stuff that can get me killed just trying to learn to fight without those moves. Also helps they have better pokes / safer moves than Fei. And Chun's walk speed is really nice after playing Fei lol

[Villainous]

KOF / Samurai Sen / Pocket Fighter / TMNT / Plinko

Jon

Brent

Pedobear

Black Guy

Charles

[RoboCurse]

China Town Buffet

Bojangles

El Dorado

[ryucross]

Elizabeth's Pizza/Bali Hai/Morimoto's AAA

[Raviloli]

oranges

bears

melty blood is mugen bullshit

[Frank The Tank]

...okay. Stop Edding this thread up with your lists of shitty games. Dude still listed KOF12 and shit.

Jon, that is stuff that Roski, Rick, Blake, and I discussed in Wilmington. It's what every top player I know that's ever played you in anything has told me.

Anyways, outside of all that, there will be games played at my place tomorrow afternoon-evening. Probably starting around 5 or so.

[Roskistrike]

Shuttup white enemy. Haha I didn't realize what everyone was doing.

Reply to replies to my earlier post coming soon. I like how you can have actual discussions here. :p

[Villainous]

I can understand why people reach that conclusion Matt. I think if I felt more comfortable doing something else I would do it more.

Lets try this from another approach. Instead of focusing on me, how do you approach defensive players? Whats your thought process and gameplan for winning a match vs say... Rick's Honda or a defensive Balrog.

[testament101]

I would say make them get out of their comfort zone. It's basically how turtlers beat you b/c you aren't satisfied with just standing there and doing nothing. It's the same with them, I would say try to get some damage off then run away but that really depends on the character. Honda's damage output is so high compared to fei that you don't want to stand there trading blows b/c honda's gonna win. The same is with Balrog (other than the damage part, got no clue how that is compared to fei).

[Villainous]

It's hard to get a turtler out of their comfort zone really if you can't ever get the life lead. Match start... walk backwards. What now?

[Roskistrike]

So....this will probably end up long.

First, I never said or called anyone "scrubs;" I said "new players" or "those who don't learn as fast." Neither of those are my definition of scrub, and you'll rarely see me use that word anyway. I don't think any of you are scrubs, period - that's not the distinction I was going for. Maybe all this stuff below will give some more insight.

From the posts I've seen, the peoples at Cheese's place are newer players, some of whom have been around for at least the last few Lucky's, and some whom I haven't witnessed much progression in (admittedly maybe I'm not looking hard enough), and Jon. I'm really only trying to play Super atm, and that's the net of players who would be there and their experience in Super, be it Dale, Trykt, whoever. With the newer players, I would probably learn some random things, but it's doubtful with the way those guys play at the moment, that anyone would take me out of my game and force me to take it further; I could probably just block and break throws if I were down on life and eventually they'll just throw themselves at a wall. If I felt like I didn't have anything to learn, then I'd be a scrub - I want to be pushed. Also never said I didn't like to play newer players, I was saying that it isn't the only thing that I want to do if I drive to play.

If I feel like it's a comfortable environment where I can say something without someone getting offended, I'll almost always give insight on why I made what decision or how the match went. Don't mind helping at all, but if these are the only players to play, I'm nowhere near the best player ever, but it would just be me offering advice, with little return for myself...after driving 1:30 to 2 hours. Come through here, we'll play all day; I've had a number of sessions where it was just me and Will for a bit and we talked a lot.

Why wouldn't large gatherings be good for new or inexperienced players? They can watch people with more knowledge go at it, live, and have them available to ask questions immediately, even if they're not playing. They can watch why some people do better against whoever is winning, and why some don't. Learning isn't exclusive to the two players on the sticks.

Then there's you, Jon. Over and over again, you make the exact same mistakes and lose the same way. Too much guessing, too little blocking, too much anticipation, too little reaction. No matter how much we talk about it, you play exactly the same. Reads usually seem to carry a positive connotation, while random is negative. IMO, the shit you do is considered random because you're HORRIBLY negative or WIDE OPEN when you do it. A chicken wing from 3/4 screen isn't going to hit shit, unless it's a lag match OR I'm mashing or doing some negative shit. If I scissor with Bison, and it hits you, it could be considered a good read, conversely, if you hit a button to cover my scissor, and you CH me, that's a good read. If I guessed wrong, lk scissor is even on block. What's flame kick on guard? If I crouch chicken wing, what's that recovery? How about when you rekka in my face (when I have a 3 frame cr.short), instead of spacing it properly? Optimal situation for me would be to whiff a poke outside of your longest poke range, that is hard for you to rekka in recovery, that would hit a rekka on your way in, that would also recover in time to aa you if you jump or CW.

Abel's TT isn't going to leave him in the air for 2 seconds, they would have to jump up to punish (which depending on character and jump arc, may not be that dangerous), or mash reversal, two things that if he didn't go for the guess, and the opponent did, he can use to his advantage. If you want to flame kick randomly, all the fuck I have to do is hold back, regardless of character. Abel damn near has one poke; his game is to get in and force the guess and/or cover your escape, and he gets a much higher reward. That's not necessary with Fei. That example doesn't work. Your play looks like it's built on outguessing the opponent, instead of outplaying them. This won't make either player better.

I mentioned abusing Fei's walk speed in the vs Sagat fight. I didn't realize he was that slow, true, but have you seen Sagat lately? You know what happens when you get close to him? I have to block and react, or GUESS. CW from 3/4 screen wasn't the optimal strategy. I remember you mentioning how I "studied" Fei vs Bison after Luckys...I didn't study that much really. Not saying that to be arrogant, but rather how I opened up your playstyle with reaction and blocking. I played Q with Fei for 15 or so matches and saw how tough it was, RH beats CW, guard beats flame kick. Art and Min told me to walk back and block. You may say I threw some random ex crushers in our last fight, but most covered multiple options (didn't throw many mid range). I knew if you blocked, I would get punished, so I checked my life, and used it to escape the corner. If I hit you, good shit, if you blocked, I had the life to eat the damage, but when I got up, I was out of the corner. I don't really see a way that you can "bait" Bison standing HK when the other player is reacting with it - it's something you have to work around. I'm not going to HK when you're in my face, and outside of that range, I'm not going to throw it out because I GUESS you're doing CW, a move that's easy to react to (note: ULTRA) outside of midrange.

---------------

One last thing that I sort of noticed...whenever we've played, I've done better on the lag-free setups, while you do better at Gamefrog and when we've played online. Wonder why? You say you don't feel the lag on the Gamefrog TVs, or it's not much to adjust to and shouldn't affect the game; maybe this can open your eyes a bit:

...I wasn't sure how to beat st.HK and HK CW USED to beat it...

Not from midrange, not when I react. Harder to do through lag.

...There's bits and pieces of reacting here and there but most of it is based off of educated guesses, even footsie...

Not nearly as true when there isn't lag (almost really wrong, even), and it's an even worse decision where your guess leaves you horrendously negative.

...when I lose in match it's me getting counter poked / running into shit

Lag? Spacing? Rhetorical.

...I also have issues anti airing him and pretty much get randomly headbutted / can't seem to throw or throw tech bait Rick for the life of me...

This is harder to do in lag, because the inputs aren't going to match with what's on the screen, and you don't have as much time to react. I played him on CRT last Wilmington session and was shutting him down some because his cr.short kept getting CH or thrown.

...(flame kick) I do it during peoples block strings because, frankly, it works when mixed up and not done every time...

Online tactic. Know why? You're not safe when you guess, unlike say...short scissor. BLOCK/REACT TO THROW WINS AGAIN. This is just throwing shit at a wall; if it sticks, you win, but in the end, you're still throwing shit.

...(flame kick) I do it with a slight delay after certain attacks to beat retaliation and throw techs, which works amazingly well. cr.LK .... wait.... flame kick will almost always hit a throw tech...

Block. React. Flame kick won't hit a goddam thing. Possible offline/offgamefrog.

...I do chicken wing to: Beat standing pokes. Beat Throws. Beat backdash. Escape from cross ups. Catch jump outs...

How much of this applies when you CW against someone 1/2 to 3/4 screen who is walking or holding downback? How much of this applies when you CW against someone holding downback, at close range, in an environment where it's possible to react to throw?

---------------

I wasn't trying to offend anyone, I was just being blunt and honest, but hopefully this cleared up any confusion. So uhh...yeah, that was long.

[Roskistrike]

For Honda, ever try this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue0gYR_QeSY