The consistent application of slashback?

[rtl42]

and eating CH (;^_^)>

why do you say this? whiffing a SB doesn't mean you eat CHs afterwards -- it just means you can't block.

[CrimsonDisaster]

If you miss SB with guardbar it could be ;(

[render]

People shouldn't be trying to SB things when they've got a flashing guardbar. And actually, rtl42 is right, you just can't block for like 10 frames (don't know the exact number) after trying to SB. That's not actually that long, so depending on what you're trying to SB, you could still be totally safe if you're timing is late rather than early.

[Hellmonkey]

Almost every missed Slashback attempt I've seen in Japanese match videos has them whiffing it late, for that reason.

[Ross]

So what are the consistent applications of it? I personally believe that it should follow the same rules as parrying at high level play in 3s. That is situtations where you feel the risk of missing the slashback is less than the reward you get for making it. For instance. If you get good at slashbacking puff balls FB you should as far as I know from the frame data be able to react the the FB flash and then slashback. So if you know you can do this everytime go for it... it would be the same as a testament who can consistently counter the fb puffball. It's always in your favor to just do it, since blocking it gets you next to nothing in alot of cases and if you try to hit it with most things you trade. Just SB it and follow up with your combo. Another good thing that is reactable to and imo should be learned to SB is Jam's 6hs the startup is enough that you should always be able to sb it on reaction no problem. There are other instances that would be helpful of course these are just some quick examples i've observed from actual play. Also what are peoples thoughts on multi-hit moves... I've been trying on green chain from axl, and can really only get the first hit the other two hit no matter how I try to sbit.

[Digital Watches]

So what are the consistent applications of it? I personally believe that it should follow the same rules as parrying at high level play in 3s. That is situtations where you feel the risk of missing the slashback is less than the reward you get for making it.

For instance.

If you get good at slashbacking puff balls FB you should as far as I know from the frame data be able to react the the FB flash and then slashback. So if you know you can do this everytime go for it... it would be the same as a testament who can consistently counter the fb puffball. It's always in your favor to just do it, since blocking it gets you next to nothing in alot of cases and if you try to hit it with most things you trade. Just SB it and follow up with your combo. Another good thing that is reactable to and imo should be learned to SB is Jam's 6hs the startup is enough that you should always be able to sb it on reaction no problem.

There are other instances that would be helpful of course these are just some quick examples i've observed from actual play. Also what are peoples thoughts on multi-hit moves... I've been trying on green chain from axl, and can really only get the first hit the other two hit no matter how I try to sbit.

Although my knowledge on 3S is VERY limited, I think it's more risky to attempt an SB than a parry (SB is something like 10 frames where you can't block, Parry, unless I'm mistaken, is just the time it takes to get the stick back to "back"), and guardbar is a factor. Therefore by those rules (Attempt when reward outweighs risk), it would probably come up less often, realistically.

But yeah, I agree that you should try to SB anything that's slow or obvious enough to practice reacting to the move's startup animation. Maybe try out some Kara-SB stuff to up your chances.

And while I'm not sure about other two-hit moves, the problem you're having SBing rensen is due to the variability of it. The whole move hits in 2-3 frames (depending on spacing), the hits are very close together (according to the frame data, it appears to have 12 separate active frames, with a maximum of three hitting at a time) and comes out (in my opinion) too quickly to react to, and additionally, hits at different times based on slight spacing differences. And as with most strings, trying to SB it based on earlier moves in the string would be highly unreliable, since most blockstrings in this game are highly variable, especially when they involve a fast special that can connect after nearly any normal. It's just impractical.

I might advocate trying to SB slower or longer multi-hit moves, such as certain supers (Though who uses those?). Maybe VV? On that at least you get three frames between the two sets of active frames, but I imagine it'd still be hard to get consistently. Definitely bandit revolver, since it hits the second time after a long set number of inactive frames (11 for ground, 14 for air.) It'd be hard to learn, but probably more possible and more worth the effort. For stuff in blockstrings, learning to Slash Barrier effectively would be useful, as it gives you more chances if you're off slightly.

[Ross]

Look at it from the perspective of a Pad player, in 3S you only have or to press, whereas in AC you need + or +

Synching the timing to that is a lot harder than you think. I've hit or faster than any direction and it screws up my timing more often than even the normal timing and missing input would.

3S Parry is tons easier to do.

probably true. But I really didn't mean from a can you actually do the motion point of view.

I don't know if I completely agree with the saftey of SBing versus parrying... whiffing a parry can very very dangerous in 3s if you guess wrong you can be in some serious trouble.. but thats beside the point, the risk reward definition still stands.

I didn't about the random frame gaps between hits in the green chain though... weird and interesting. I would have assumed that after the first hit the next two hits would always follow within the same set amount of time.

[rtl42]

Look at it from the perspective of a Pad player, in 3S you only have or to press, whereas in AC you need + or +

Synching the timing to that is a lot harder than you think. I've hit or faster than any direction and it screws up my timing more often than even the normal timing and missing input would.

3S Parry is tons easier to do.

synching the timing is a general matter of practicing, and it's totally subjective to say that it's "harder than you think". so as a counterexample, but not that i mean to be a jerk, i don't think it's "harder than i think".

anyways, my point is that, as an "objective" statement, i would agree if you just took out that middle paragraph.

[Digital Watches]

Sure, that may be open to opinion, but the odds aren't in Slashback's favor if you consider the number of button presses involved.

Meh, synching buttons is incredibly easy on a stick. Hell, I think I've even got the Kara timing for 2P-(Slashback) down and I've only been trying it for like, 5 minutes now. Either way, execution difficulty should never be a factor in whether something is strategically useful until it falls into the realm of "not humanly possible."

And Ross: Just now testing with the dummy set to "slashback," rensen timings from different spacings are varying a lot visually. Sometimes I see all three slashback things happen really close to each other (maybe one or two frames apart, or maybe they're somehow hitting twice on one frame, I'm not quite sure how the game handles multiple hits like that), but other times I see first two right next to each other and then the last one far apart. More often than not, I actually see the first one happen well before the second two, but I think I saw only 2 slashback thingies once. Then there's the fact that the FRC point can fall on varying points in the attack, meaning that even if you can slashback all three normally, you might only slashback the first one, it gets FRC'd after 1 hit, and either you have godlike reflexes and visual processing speed, or you're already locked into a failed slashback with Axl in neutral. Either way, it's risky and implausible.

[rtl42]

Sure, that may be open to opinion, but the odds aren't in Slashback's favor if you consider the number of button presses involved.

idk, that sorta sounds like you're saying that since it's harder to FRC than RC, the odds are against you for trying to FRC, so don't bother. maybe i'm misunderstanding this, though.

[Digital Watches]

And when, exactly, would that be? O.o

At the point where you're assuming reaction time that's better than humanly possible. Anything muscle-memory based or having to do with synchronization can be learned, but things like reacting to something faster than the maximum human hand-eye coordination time are obviously impossible, for example, reacting to individual moves with fast startup time within blockstrings in time to SB, without prior knowledge of exactly when the move will hit or which move is coming out.

[Digital Watches]

No, I'm not saying not to bother, I'm saying odds of successful Slashback input are lower compared to a Parry input. Just because odds are low doesn't mean it isn't worth the risk. It depends on situation, reward for success a.k.a. advantage, and how you could use the advantage you obtain.

For the instance of an FRC, if it's just a Feint, the reward might seem smaller than the risk, even if you're safe. That doesn't mean it's not worth it, as Feints fake out the opponent, you just have to work with what you have and hope for the best or even better know what options you have afterwards.

Obviously if you want to increase the odds of success you practice.

You shouldn't be talking about odds in the first place, is the thing. Inability to input two buttons shouldn't be something that someone thinking about using slashback should be worried about at all at the time of the actual match, and it's certainly not a strategical concern.

[Ross]

Digiwa (should be your new nickname ahhaa) - Oh well that is strange. I'll have to look at it when I get home... I wonder if I could sb your overhead instead... that move is slow like jambunker.... hmmmmmmm anyone else have moves the SB alot.. I see niga sb fireballs somtimes, when he doesn't feel like walking foward.

[Digital Watches]

Digiwa (should be your new nickname ahhaa) - Oh well that is strange. I'll have to look at it when I get home... I wonder if I could sb your overhead instead... that move is slow like jambunker.... hmmmmmmm

anyone else have moves the SB alot.. I see niga sb fireballs somtimes, when he doesn't feel like walking foward.

Huh. That's a new one. I've heard DW, DWs, Digi, and Watches.

Um... Yeah, you could probably SB Axl's 6H pretty consistently with practice. It's super-obvious and has 23 frames of startup. Just make sure you're reacting to the move starting up, and not the previous move in the string (since, again, that will cause problems if I or whatever other Axl you're playing varies the timing of the 6H after whatever.)

And yeah, I'm sure there are a few moves that are just so slow that they'll be a risk to try against anyone who's even dabbled in Slashbacking. Jam's 6H and, again, Sol's BR are glaring examples.

[axel]

Instead of focusing on SBing, learning to land your combos consistently should be the main aim. This year's SBO semifinalists did not even SB anything successfully as far as I remember.

[zand]

Huh. That's a new one. I've heard DW, DWs, Digi, and Watches.

Um... Yeah, you could probably SB Axl's 6H pretty consistently with practice. It's super-obvious and has 23 frames of startup. Just make sure you're reacting to the move starting up, and not the previous move in the string (since, again, that will cause problems if I or whatever other Axl you're playing varies the timing of the 6H after whatever.)

And yeah, I'm sure there are a few moves that are just so slow that they'll be a risk to try against anyone who's even dabbled in Slashbacking. Jam's 6H and, again, Sol's BR are glaring examples.

The only shit that really you should be slashbacking is crap you KNOW that you will successfully SB, like the 3rd hit of ky's cse, or the 3rd hit of a lightning doobie ball, or sol j.h hit 2, BR after blocking the first hit if someone retarded does it to you on block, etc. Given that you can't reversal SB (its like 9F you can't SB for after waking) I don't get when you'd try to SB axl 6H. If he's doing it non-meaty you can just IB it :I

[Ross]

its true... plus alot of setups allow you to backdash out and escape pressure. I acutally didn't know that before I messed around sbing it. Also punishing it after sb isn't like retarded easy. It's easy but not super easy. I wish you could do sb on wakeup. It kinda sucks you can't.

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

Dubious Curve = Doobie DC Loop = Doobie Loop DC Ball = Doobie Ball