The consistent application of slashback?

[SugataDesigns]

Hello. I'm rather new to the Guilty Gear series, the latest release for the Wii being my first purchase. Luckily I am living with my boyfriend, and both being heavy gamers (CLARIFICATION: We both play games a lot. I didn't mean we were fat ;[ ), we are able to play against each other daily as opposed to the inhuman A.I., allowing a much more ideal environment to improve in. We've picked up some basics such as instant air dashing, instant blocking, and FDC's rather easily. While we still have to learn (and practice) applications of FRC, ID, and others, my question was pertaining to slashback. I've been practicing rather hard with it and I'm to the point where I can usually slashback 1-2 attacks per round without having to think about it. I've watched a few tourney vids and while I saw a few slashbacks here and there, I was wondering if it is really used that often. I wanted to master it to the point where I could SB nearly every attack as it seems to be the most effective option. Consistent mastery makes up for the risk involved, I would think. So my question is; do professional GG players use SB often(meaning; is it something I should be practicing in order to reach a professional level?), or even if not, is mastery a viable and/or reasonable choice? Thanks ^^

[SugataDesigns]

Glad to see this: (Posted by Jais in linked thread) "AC Bridgets are ROCKING slaskback on pressured specials. Ex: Anji stomp, Greed Saber, Axl cross over etc. All end in a free 5K~c.S(1)~2D~FRC, running 5K~6S~B&B" Bridget's my main, though I've been going random to learn the basics of every character. I've been using Baiken as my secondary and I recently discovered that she can counter from SB, which seemed to massively improve their startup rates. Thanks for the advice

[低姿勢]

You can alpha counter after slash back. Which means you can also do the cross up FDC alpha counter bug with it as well. But then again if your parrying you dont really need to FDC I suppose shruuuuuuug.

[rtl42]

Hello. I'm rather new to the Guilty Gear series, the latest release for the Wii being my first purchase. Luckily I am living with my boyfriend, and both being heavy gamers, we are able to play against each other daily as opposed to the inhuman A.I., allowing a much more ideal environment to improve in.

We've picked up some basics such as instant air dashing, instant blocking, and FDC's rather easily. While we still have to learn (and practice) applications of FRC, ID, and others, my question was pertaining to slashback.

I've been practicing rather hard with it and I'm to the point where I can usually slashback 1-2 attacks per round without having to think about it. I've watched a few tourney vids and while I saw a few slashbacks here and there, I was wondering if it is really used that often. I wanted to master it to the point where I could SB nearly every attack as it seems to be the most effective option. Consistent mastery makes up for the risk involved, I would think.

So my question is; do professional GG players use SB often(meaning; is it something I should be practicing in order to reach a professional level?), or even if not, is mastery a viable and/or reasonable choice?

Thanks ^^

How do you plan on SBing (nearly) every attack?

[SugataDesigns]

How do you plan on SBing (nearly) every attack?

I 'unno. It seems feasible enough to me; any timing could be perfected. But I'm no expert - could you explain how or why it isn't possible/reasonable? Perhaps longer active frames during a given attack than slashback? (Like I said, I'm new to GG, so I'm honestly curious)

[Gonzales]

you can try but alway's using slash back leaves open for grabs

[excelence]

whiffed Slash back can or will cause CH ... and CH were always hurt like hell ... never slash back except u're very certain it will connect

[rtl42]

I 'unno. It seems feasible enough to me; any timing could be perfected. But I'm no expert - could you explain how or why it isn't possible/reasonable? Perhaps longer active frames during a given attack than slashback? (Like I said, I'm new to GG, so I'm honestly curious)

like Gonzales posted, waiting to block means you're waiting to be thrown.

but the other thing is, even if the opponent doesn't throw you, they could just attack you with an unanticipated move. I mean, everyone has at least 15 or so ground attacks, so I highly doubt you'd be able to memorize all of those, for all characters (21 in all, do the math). and everyone has a bunch of moves that are fast enough that you simply can't react to.

so yeah, you're either going to be hit by something you didn't anticipate, so your SB timing will be off, or you'll get thrown.

[Digital Watches]

Slashbacking everything will never be a viable option ever. Human beings don't even see things as fast as the game goes (60 FPS. I don't remember exactly how fast human visual processing speed is, but I think I recall hearing 30-40 FPS. At any rate, it's less than 60, as evidenced by people's ability to sometimes miss certain one-frame bits of animation, such as the benten picture in some of Axl's moves, or certain moves wherein Zappa transforms into S-Ko for one frame. Seriously, go to training mode and whiff Axl's super or Zappa's 5H several times. You'll notice that sometimes you see these frames of animation, and sometimes you don't.), and slashbacking requires 2 frame timing if I recall correctly. Human hand-eye reaction time isn't instantaneous either. Given this information, it can be said that slashbacking on reaction to every move is outside of the realm of human reflexes. Therefore, the only viable means of slashbacking something is to predict it, or to do it against something slow enough to see coming, having memorized the timing necessary to SB it. Tell me when you learn to read minds. This is not to say that I don't think it will play an integral role in the metagame, but it's going to be the threat of slashback, not slashback itself, that becomes prevalent. I believe that if it's not true already, many top players will soon or eventually have memorized the most common strings for every character, and practiced or have enough experience to slashback these strings with a small if existant margin of error. This will force other top players to develop new patterns of attack, possibly inferior to the old ones, certainly different, or put unusual gaps in their existing patterns, in order to avoid being punished by a slashback. In this scenario, you'll almost never see a slashback in a match, but behind the scenes, it will be on the minds of both players. Either way, trying to slashback every single move at all times is ludicrous, and a waste of effort.

[Iruel]

the game goes (60 FPS. I don't remember exactly how fast human visual processing speed is, but I think I recall hearing 30-40 FPS. At any rate, it's less than 60, as evidenced by people's ability to sometimes miss certain one-frame bits of animation, such as the benten picture in some of Axl's moves, or certain moves wherein Zappa transforms into S-Ko for one frame. Seriously, go to training mode and whiff Axl's super or Zappa's 5H several times. You'll notice that sometimes you see these frames of animation, and sometimes you don't.)

1 - If my memory serves me: films in the theatre are shown at ~ 45-48 fps, if that paints a clearer picture.

2 - I whole-heartedly enjoied pausing the game and showing Zappa's possessor to unexpecting friends, lol.

[SugataDesigns]

Slashbacking everything will never be a viable option ever. Human beings don't even see things as fast as the game goes (60 FPS. I don't remember exactly how fast human visual processing speed is, but I think I recall hearing 30-40 FPS. At any rate, it's less than 60, as evidenced by people's ability to sometimes miss certain one-frame bits of animation, such as the benten picture in some of Axl's moves, or certain moves wherein Zappa transforms into S-Ko for one frame. Seriously, go to training mode and whiff Axl's super or Zappa's 5H several times. You'll notice that sometimes you see these frames of animation, and sometimes you don't.), and slashbacking requires 2 frame timing if I recall correctly. Human hand-eye reaction time isn't instantaneous either. Given this information, it can be said that slashbacking on reaction to every move is outside of the realm of human reflexes. Therefore, the only viable means of slashbacking something is to predict it, or to do it against something slow enough to see coming, having memorized the timing necessary to SB it. Tell me when you learn to read minds.

This is not to say that I don't think it will play an integral role in the metagame, but it's going to be the threat of slashback, not slashback itself, that becomes prevalent. I believe that if it's not true already, many top players will soon or eventually have memorized the most common strings for every character, and practiced or have enough experience to slashback these strings with a small if existant margin of error. This will force other top players to develop new patterns of attack, possibly inferior to the old ones, certainly different, or put unusual gaps in their existing patterns, in order to avoid being punished by a slashback. In this scenario, you'll almost never see a slashback in a match, but behind the scenes, it will be on the minds of both players.

Either way, trying to slashback every single move at all times is ludicrous, and a waste of effort.

Well, that's about all I needed to hear. What you (and rtl42) are saying about only achieving it on prediction and that the threat is moreso present than SB itself helps me a lot.

Thank you very much for all that information.

I've integrated into my neurons a button-reading program similar to that of the AI but it's filled with glitches, so I don't know if you'd consider that viable. I'll have to get back to you.

[reaVer]

human eyes can read up to 300-500fps iirc, processing is based on the person. And most likely it cannot be processed manual, hence instincts are pretty good at times because that's your remote chance on dodging bullets. Anyways... rtl42: waiting for your opponent to do a move you guard and risking to get thrown is always a more plausible option then eating a CH, or eating random attacks in your backdash or jump. It's not rare you actually have to guard, and it's even common that in those cases you're already aware of the timing that the first attack will strike you. Anyways, slashbacking anything that's chainable or has a fast recovery is pointless, because you'll find that you can only interrupt with a dragonpunch in between that move and the next. However, it tends to happen that an opponent uses some heavy move at the end of his string and then wants to cancel to a reasonably slow special. Slashback that heavy move and you're free to interrupt him. This is one of the most used appliances by the Japanese, and yes, they do use Slashback, except that now there is nothing to slashback because people stopped their long and predictable strings there.

[rtl42]

rtl42: waiting for your opponent to do a move you guard and risking to get thrown is always a more plausible option then eating a CH, or eating random attacks in your backdash or jump. It's not rare you actually have to guard, and it's even common that in those cases you're already aware of the timing that the first attack will strike you.

i have no idea what you're talking about.

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

1 - If my memory serves me: films in the theatre are shown at ~ 45-48 fps, if that paints a clearer picture.

24FPS is the standard rate for film.

human eyes can read up to 300-500fps iirc, processing is based on the person. And most likely it cannot be processed manual, hence instincts are pretty good at times because that's your remote chance on dodging bullets. Anyways...

Human eyesight can distinguish between framerates of very high numbers, but it becomes impossible to distinguish between individual frames at a much lower level (which I guess is what you mean by processing). But yeah, eyesight has far less to do with it than reaction time and other things.

rtl42: waiting for your opponent to do a move you guard and risking to get thrown is always a more plausible option then eating a CH, or eating random attacks in your backdash or jump. It's not rare you actually have to guard, and it's even common that in those cases you're already aware of the timing that the first attack will strike you.

Blocking is a much more plausible option than SBing a random move, if that's what you mean. You aren't going to eat a random CH from a backdash or jump unless you do it stupidly or when you shouldn't be. Sitting still and waiting for an attack is a bad idea in general. There's a reason why good players are always moving around all the time.

This is one of the most used appliances by the Japanese, and yes, they do use Slashback, except that now there is nothing to slashback because people stopped their long and predictable strings there.

This is correct, except it's pretty much true with anyone halfway decent at the game. If your mixups or blockstrings are so predictable that you are getting SBed, you must be really bad at attacking. Slashback just isn't that useful in general because the timing on it is very tight, coupled with the wide range of attack options characters have.

[TGS]

rtl42: waiting for your opponent to do a move you guard and risking to get thrown is always a more plausible option then eating a CH...

I dare you to SlashBack a Potemkin Buster.

Edit: Also, the most common form of SB'ing I see in Japanese vids are during multi-hit moves the opponent is committed to (i.e. Sol j.H, Eddie Shadow K attack and FB Drill, etc.), so SB isn't totally useless...

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

FD only helps in the places FD is normally useful, regardless of how well you time it. There's a reason IB/SB are also in the game.

[render]

There are things you specifically shouldn't FD, like Potemkin's 6HS > Slidehead, or Robo-Ky's 5P @ 80%+ heat-gauge (especially while crouching). Why? It puts you in more hit-stun and you eat teh comboz, or it locks you down in your opponent's pressure string. I think the point that needs to get across is that Slashbacking can be very beneficial in very specific situations. SB is sometimes a good way to get out of pressure (as with the second hit of Eddie's Shadow K), but it's the risk/reward ratio is not in your favor. Because of the precise timing required, though, it's only an option you should consider if you're absolutely SURE you'll execute it properly. What you should concentrate on instead is learning to instant block consistently, and learn to utilize that to get yourself out of / counter your opponent's pressure. [edit: Blade, did you just ask how many frames of startup FD, SB, and IB have? They don't HAVE frames of startup.]

[CrimsonDisaster]

In Accent Core, I began to notice slight changes in how FD is handled.

1. Fast FD (Only 3 Circles are seen in front)

2. Held FD (Orb is seen with Green Lightning)

3. A.I. FD (Lightspark thingie, dunno what it is, only see it in training mode when you set AI to FD).

First off- "instant" FD doesn't do anything except potentially save you a little meter.

Second- the training mode FD isn't anything special, it's the EXACT SAME THING as regular FD except since the computer doesn't block until you actually make contact in those training mode settings, there's no green rings to show you it's holding FD (because it isn't).

[reaVer]

There are things you specifically shouldn't FD, like Potemkin's 6HS > Slidehead, or Robo-Ky's 5P @ 80%+ heat-gauge (especially while crouching). Why? It puts you in more hit-stun and you eat teh comboz, or it locks you down in your opponent's pressure string.

I think the point that needs to get across is that Slashbacking can be very beneficial in very specific situations. SB is sometimes a good way to get out of pressure (as with the second hit of Eddie's Shadow K), but it's the risk/reward ratio is not in your favor.

Because of the precise timing required, though, it's only an option you should consider if you're absolutely SURE you'll execute it properly.

What you should concentrate on instead is learning to instant block consistently, and learn to utilize that to get yourself out of / counter your opponent's pressure.

[edit: Blade, did you just ask how many frames of startup FD, SB, and IB have? They don't HAVE frames of startup.]

FD puts you in more stun, but also knocks back your opponent further, it depends on what you want really. Sometimes(or often) the extra stun is handy as it guards you from throws.

FD actually has 1 or 2 start up frames, this is why anyone running or in air is an immediate victim to OS's level 2 Savage Fang, FD is simply impossible at that moment unless activated earlier.

[Neophos]

24FPS is the standard rate for film.

Technically, they go at 72 FPS to cut down on flicker. By cloning each image two times and then playing the movie three times as fast, the black flicker gets cut down into such short intervals that humans generally don't see them.

FD actually has 1 or 2 start up frames, this is why anyone running or in air is an immediate victim to OS's level 2 Savage Fang, FD is simply impossible at that moment unless activated earlier.

A move can't have less then one frame of startup, since the game has to read your input before doing the move. Since Savage Fang got 0 frames of startup post-freeze, you can't block it if you aren't already holding block, since after the game has acknowledged your input (one frame), you've already been hit.

[Digital Watches]

FD puts you in more stun, but also knocks back your opponent further, it depends on what you want really. Sometimes(or often) the extra stun is handy as it guards you from throws.

FD actually has 1 or 2 start up frames, this is why anyone running or in air is an immediate victim to OS's level 2 Savage Fang, FD is simply impossible at that moment unless activated earlier.

That's... definitely not true. The reason you can't FD while running into Savage fang lv. 2... Is because it has 0 frames of startup after the super flash, meaning that it hits you on the SAME FRAME as the super flash started, as far as the game is concerned. Any input you try during the flash, regardless of startup, will not do anything until after the move has had a chance to hit.

You can test this pretty easily.

May's anchor super (63214S) starts up in one frame after the super freeze. This means that if FD had 1 frame of startup, you couldn't input FD during the flash. Trying it shows that this is not the case.

[SugataDesigns]

Sitting still and waiting for an attack is a bad idea in general. There's a reason why good players are always moving around all the time.

>_>

No one ever said you had to sit around and wait for the attack. It's not like SB has a massive number of start-up frames.

[Digital Watches]

>_>

No one ever said you had to sit around and wait for the attack. It's not like SB has a massive number of start-up frames.

Or um... Any. That's kind of the point. It's blocking.

Either way, hopefully we've been able to clear this up for you: It's just not viable to try to SB against everything. Ignoring for a second the fact that it's humanly impossible, the risk-reward is stupidly bad, since losing the ability to block really screws you over in almost any defensive situation.

[excelence]

and eating CH (;^_^)>

[SugataDesigns]

Or um... Any. That's kind of the point. It's blocking.

Either way, hopefully we've been able to clear this up for you: It's just not viable to try to SB against everything. Ignoring for a second the fact that it's humanly impossible, the risk-reward is stupidly bad, since losing the ability to block really screws you over in almost any defensive situation.

Yeah, you have. Thanks everyone