zeth07 Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 I was so excited by the advice that I logged on and called out that son of a bitch that keeps bodying me, but as soon as I heard "Rebel 1...Action!" I thought..."wait a sec, how *DO* you do those things with Bang?". Then I lost again I've mentioned it to a few other people when they just started playing so I'll say it to you as well, don't even bother going on netplay til you actually understand at least YOUR character and what you're doing with him. Every time you press a button or do anything, you should have and know the reason for doing it. Go back and watch that match yourself and look at the stuff you're doing and ask yourself "why did I do that?" and you'll see exactly what I mean. More specifically, -Your hitconfirming: A few times you did combos that went into 6C even though they were crouching. -One time you did 3C literally point blank, it hit, but that's not exactly the way you should be using 3C. -You were pressing D....A LOT, seemingly at random, and didn't really do any combos to follow up when you actually got a hit. -A few times it seemed like you were throwing nails just to throw them and at one point you had no nails left and the other guy had like 11 or something. Use the nails wisely, unlike other characters Bang has limited resources. Everything else is gonna be basic fundamentals and actual character strategy as in what you should be doing with pressure/mix-up/zoning / whatever. It's not like you're at the arcades and have to pay to play and learn the game through actual matches. Training mode is there for a reason, grind the hell out of it. You would basically be wasting your time on netplay if you're not actively learning and knowing what you're supposed to be doing. That's my advice. Eventually you'll grind it out, then play thousands of matches, and come back and body me like some other people I helped when they first started out.
Dacidbro Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 You say "I have a lot of.. Dora and Dacidbro in my diet", which I'm guessing means something like you play too gimmicky without understanding your options. The first thing to understand is (And Dora is better at this than me) the weird options I use aren't weird in application. They're sometimes somewhat gimmicky, but every time I use an option there are a number of very specific outcomes I'm looking for, to test my opponent. For example, one of the first things I'll do with my opponent is see if they actually understand 6D. If I press 6D on wakeup 5 times in a row, and the outcomes are: GuardPointed, successful hit GuardPointed, successful hit Grabbed Guardpointed, hit out anyway Guardpointed, successful hit Those odds are probably in my favor to just keep throwing it, honestly, because Bang's 6D is such high reward. This player has given me no reason to stop mashing on 6D, and is essentially giving me a free win. But if it looks like this: Guardpointed, successful hit Overhead counterhit me Guardpointed, then grabbed Grabbed Overhead counterhit me Obviously I'm getting blown up for it, and I need to stop using that option right away. BUT, because I have conditioned them to beat 6D, other options are more available. Backdash is likely to be more effective, because the odds of them using a move with quick recovery is less likely (Although jab mash is a decently effective way to beat 6D too, and that would beat backdash with a slight callout). Reversal Ashura is much more likely to land now, because it beats grabs and overheads. Even 5D could likely be used on reaction to a poorly meatied overhead. Basically, if you watch someone play in a way that looks really high risk, you need to look deeper into the match. Discover the reasons these hits land for these players, but don't for you. (And the 5 wakeup 6D's is mostly a reference, I wouldn't recommend that very often) The other piece of advice I would give is to understand every move's place. 3C is a strong footsies tool with good reads. 6C is your highest reward read based anti air. TK Double Palm is strong mid screen footsies with high reward on CH. Etc, etc
mAc Chaos Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) I was so excited by the advice that I logged on and called out that son of a bitch that keeps bodying me, but as soon as I heard "Rebel 1...Action!" I thought..."wait a sec, how *DO* you do those things with Bang?". Then I lost again so what its not like youre gonna read something and then instantly get it down. its gonna take a while, just be patient. Edited December 5, 2011 by mAc Chaos
Linear04 Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 sfsfdgs what happens in bang mirrors guardpointed, then REVERSE GUARDPOINTED AW SHIT
Dacidbro Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 what happens in bang mirrors guardpointed, then REVERSE GUARDPOINTED AW SHIT Nothing about bang mirrors makes any sense
Star-Demon Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) You say "I have a lot of.. Dora and Dacidbro in my diet", which I'm guessing means something like you play too gimmicky without understanding your options. Firstly, I mean no offense by this - I can see that you, Dora, etc play and are having lots of fun with Bang. That's how I see it. Games are for fun first and foremost. I can see what you mean by throwing in unpredictable gimmicks, especially when I hear ("it's okay, he beat me with 6A6A6A, too") over commentary like at NWM. People expect other stuff. It's like me wanting to use ALL GREEN all the time. It's a frigging terrible move - I love using it. The first thing to understand is (And Dora is better at this than me) the weird options I use aren't weird in application. They're sometimes somewhat gimmicky, but every time I use an option there are a number of very specific outcomes I'm looking for, to test my opponent. For example, one of the first things I'll do with my opponent is see if they actually understand 6D. If I press 6D on wakeup 5 times in a row, and the outcomes are: GuardPointed, successful hit GuardPointed, successful hit Grabbed Guardpointed, hit out anyway Guardpointed, successful hit Those odds are probably in my favor to just keep throwing it, honestly, because Bang's 6D is such high reward. This player has given me no reason to stop mashing on 6D, and is essentially giving me a free win. But if it looks like this: Guardpointed, successful hit Overhead counterhit me Guardpointed, then grabbed Grabbed Overhead counterhit me Obviously I'm getting blown up for it, and I need to stop using that option right away. BUT, because I have conditioned them to beat 6D, other options are more available. Backdash is likely to be more effective, because the odds of them using a move with quick recovery is less likely (Although jab mash is a decently effective way to beat 6D too, and that would beat backdash with a slight callout). Reversal Ashura is much more likely to land now, because it beats grabs and overheads. Even 5D could likely be used on reaction to a poorly meatied overhead. I see! Right now I try not to 6D much, except in combos or when I think they are doing something with a lot of startup so I don't run into anything. I'm learning that Ashura exists, and I should use it. Damn CT... Bang's Guardpoints are great. I'd love to learn how to use B and C teleports to connect instead of just A. Basically, if you watch someone play in a way that looks really high risk, you need to look deeper into the match. Discover the reasons these hits land for these players, but don't for you. (And the 5 wakeup 6D's is mostly a reference, I wouldn't recommend that very often) The other piece of advice I would give is to understand every move's place. 3C is a strong footsies tool with good reads. 6C is your highest reward read based anti air. TK Double Palm is strong mid screen footsies with high reward on CH. Etc, etc Good advice. I'm learning a lot about all the normals as I keep playing and watching others play. Like you said - I don't understand all the options, but a few things are slowly coming together. I appreciate the post! Now, for this - I've mentioned it to a few other people when they just started playing so I'll say it to you as well, don't even bother going on netplay til you actually understand at least YOUR character and what you're doing with him. You should never treat everyone the same all the time. I joked at first, trying to lightly ask for more then what you said so maybe I'd have a little more to think about than "get out, noob", but since that's your line, and you're sticking to it, then okay. If you don't want noobs in the community, you can look forward to being as irrelevant and derelict as Guilty Gear now is, and people nicer and more helpful (DacidBro, sometimes LK) will get the props and respect. Your post continues, and you probbly don't mean it that way, but I think it's something for everyone to think about seriously. Don't respond like that - no one ever gets anything out of it but miffed. Every time you press a button or do anything, you should have and know the reason for doing it. Go back and watch that match yourself and look at the stuff you're doing and ask yourself "why did I do that?" and you'll see exactly what I mean. You know I watch my own vids a lot. I go through the trouble of capturing them, converting them, and posting them. I still think I need a second set of eyes, ya know? More specifically, -Your hitconfirming: A few times you did combos that went into 6C even though they were crouching. -One time you did 3C literally point blank, it hit, but that's not exactly the way you should be using 3C. -You were pressing D....A LOT, seemingly at random, and didn't really do any combos to follow up when you actually got a hit. -A few times it seemed like you were throwing nails just to throw them and at one point you had no nails left and the other guy had like 11 or something. Use the nails wisely, unlike other characters Bang has limited resources. - The 6C on crouch is a bad habit. I'm trying to axe it by using 2C when I see crouch, with mixed success, but I'm trying to break it just like I broke the CT combos. (took two weeks to stop doing CT) - 6C out of the blue is just funny as hell. - So is Heavenlyheavenlyheavenlyheavenly rain! You...you do know we both were having fun with that match, right? Everything else is gonna be basic fundamentals and actual character strategy as in what you should be doing with pressure/mix-up/zoning / whatever. It's not like you're at the arcades and have to pay to play and learn the game through actual matches. Training mode is there for a reason, grind the hell out of it. You would basically be wasting your time on netplay if you're not actively learning and knowing what you're supposed to be doing. That sounds silly. I netplay with online and RL friends. Even being bodied, how could I be wasting my time when I'm having fun? This sounds like nothing but a hardcore attitude for the sake of it, and I really don't want to have that anymore for any game. I want to learn, but I'm not out for blood or money or fame. Just some GGs. I don't plan on winning a stickbug tourney, but it would be awfully funny if I did. What's the point of driving people away? That's my advice. Eventually you'll grind it out, then play thousands of matches, and come back and body me like some other people I helped when they first started out. I have about 2500 CT matches. Not sure how many I have in CS so far, but I didn't get past 100 without accepting that I'll lose a lot, and my own metric should be if I'm having fun or not. I've lost probably 80% of my CT matches. That being said, I appreciate you going more into detail, even though I find myself a little put off by the opening. Thanks everyone! I'll keep at it. See ya online. Next stream is Teusday night. Edited December 5, 2011 by Star-Demon
Dacidbro Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Well.. yes, me and Dora have fun, but we also beat a lot of extremely strong players. When I play in tournament, I have fun while playing to win. I don't do those weird things to have fun, I do them to win. I have no difficulty believing it's the same for Dora. Also, I don't think Zeth had any ill will, he just wants to cut out the middle ground and tell you quick ways to improve. He's 100% right, by the way, I don't agree that you understand your own choices either, just by the way you talk about the game. Don't take it the wrong way, he doesn't mean anything bad by it. (Even if he's typically the grumpy type ^_^)
mAc Chaos Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 "I have about 2500 CT matches. Not sure how many I have in CS so far, but I didn't get past 100 without accepting that I'll lose a lot, and my own metric should be if I'm having fun or not. I've lost probably 80% of my CT matches. " This doesn't really mean anything for CS. I have more games for CT than CS1 and 2 combined, but I was inept when switching over to CS at first. The core of the character is the same, but the matchups are different in some cases and you have new combos and new characters to deal with. Plus, aren't you a Litchi player? So that's not gonna really matter for Bang. You'll still need a lot of games to get the hang of it.
Linear04 Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) it takes different things for different players to get better, just grinding in training mode before going on netplay isnt necessarily a faster or better way to get better Edited December 5, 2011 by Linear04
mAc Chaos Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 training mode wont help you with matchup experience or spacing or knowing when to poke out of what, etc just getting combo execution down and even that will take implementation in real matches to get down
Linear04 Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 you could argue that you can improve hitconfirming with the use of the random settings, but since it doesnt necessarily replicate the pressure and nature of a player vs player situation, it might not end up helping at all, agreed
zeth07 Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) Now, for this - You should never treat everyone the same all the time. I joked at first, trying to lightly ask for more then what you said so maybe I'd have a little more to think about than "get out, noob", but since that's your line, and you're sticking to it, then okay. If you don't want noobs in the community, you can look forward to being as irrelevant and derelict as Guilty Gear now is, and people nicer and more helpful (DacidBro, sometimes LK) will get the props and respect. Your post continues, and you probbly don't mean it that way, but I think it's something for everyone to think about seriously. Don't respond like that - no one ever gets anything out of it but miffed. You know I watch my own vids a lot. I go through the trouble of capturing them, converting them, and posting them. I still think I need a second set of eyes, ya know? - The 6C on crouch is a bad habit. I'm trying to axe it by using 2C when I see crouch, with mixed success, but I'm trying to break it just like I broke the CT combos. (took two weeks to stop doing CT) - 6C out of the blue is just funny as hell. - So is Heavenlyheavenlyheavenlyheavenly rain! You...you do know we both were having fun with that match, right? That sounds silly. I netplay with online and RL friends. Even being bodied, how could I be wasting my time when I'm having fun? This sounds like nothing but a hardcore attitude for the sake of it, and I really don't want to have that anymore for any game. I want to learn, but I'm not out for blood or money or fame. Just some GGs. I don't plan on winning a stickbug tourney, but it would be awfully funny if I did. What's the point of driving people away? I have about 2500 CT matches. Not sure how many I have in CS so far, but I didn't get past 100 without accepting that I'll lose a lot, and my own metric should be if I'm having fun or not. I've lost probably 80% of my CT matches. That being said, I appreciate you going more into detail, even though I find myself a little put off by the opening. Thanks everyone! I'll keep at it. See ya online. Next stream is Teusday night. Nothing I said was meant to be calling you a noob, I was just giving you advice since you asked for it. How am I supposed to know you were "just having fun" in a match? I took the match exactly for what it was and commented just on what I saw. I did the same thing as you and literally went on netplay after just playing through arcade mode when I first started playing CT. And I was just pressing buttons, that's not me learning anything, especially if it is getting bodied by people who are way better. So now after I've been playing for 2 years or whatever, my advice to people "trying to get better", would be to actually learn SOME basics before playing people. It's one thing to just play for fun and mess around, but once it comes down to seriously trying to get better and asking for help, you need to realize the difference. I could go on netplay and pick Ragna and press buttons, but I have NO IDEA how to use Ragna, so I wouldn't be learning anything if I just started playing. Netplay is there for match-ups, but if you don't know your own character then it isn't nearly the same learning experience. In no way was I trying to be mean or anything, sorry if you took it that way. It's supposed to be constructive criticism if people ask for help. I'm like the nicest person ever, lol. You just took my post the wrong way I guess. EDIT: And what I really meant by not going on netplay, was more or less to at least get some fundamentals of the character and combos down if you're trying to learn before playing people. Like what's the point of playing a match if you don't even know what to do if you land a hit? That's what I was referring to. Obviously the idea of what's fun is up to each person, but you should definitely think about when you're playing for fun and when it's time to actually learn and get better. Edited December 5, 2011 by zeth07
McArthur Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 lol what's with the "Bandwagon already in effect" thread title? XD he's like the same in CS2 except an additional midscreen combo and midscreen crouching (additional few hundred damage), every other combo is 100% or very very similar to CS2 + damage
huey253 Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 I have 5k CT matches!!! Star Demon.... I know its hard, but if you ask for advice, you should be willing to give it a good listen unless that person was directly insulting you. I'm still convinced that your a troll, but Zeth went out of his way to give you actual advice. Atleast don't be a douchebag back to him. (He spent some of his actual time doing so.) Also... 6D got proration nerf in CSX but jD got a proration buff!!!!!
Star-Demon Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 "I have about 2500 CT matches. Not sure how many I have in CS so far, but I didn't get past 100 without accepting that I'll lose a lot, and my own metric should be if I'm having fun or not. I've lost probably 80% of my CT matches. " This doesn't really mean anything for CS. I have more games for CT than CS1 and 2 combined, but I was inept when switching over to CS at first. The core of the character is the same, but the matchups are different in some cases and you have new combos and new characters to deal with. Plus, aren't you a Litchi player? So that's not gonna really matter for Bang. You'll still need a lot of games to get the hang of it. I wasn't talking about characters. I was talking about losing.
Star-Demon Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) Nothing I said was meant to be calling you a noob, I was just giving you advice since you asked for it. How am I supposed to know you were "just having fun" in a match? I took the match exactly for what it was and commented just on what I saw. I did the same thing as you and literally went on netplay after just playing through arcade mode when I first started playing CT. And I was just pressing buttons, that's not me learning anything, especially if it is getting bodied by people who are way better. So now after I've been playing for 2 years or whatever, my advice to people "trying to get better", would be to actually learn SOME basics before playing people. It's one thing to just play for fun and mess around, but once it comes down to seriously trying to get better and asking for help, you need to realize the difference. I could go on netplay and pick Ragna and press buttons, but I have NO IDEA how to use Ragna, so I wouldn't be learning anything if I just started playing. Netplay is there for match-ups, but if you don't know your own character then it isn't nearly the same learning experience. In no way was I trying to be mean or anything, sorry if you took it that way. It's supposed to be constructive criticism if people ask for help. I'm like the nicest person ever, lol. You just took my post the wrong way I guess. EDIT: And what I really meant by not going on netplay, was more or less to at least get some fundamentals of the character and combos down if you're trying to learn before playing people. Like what's the point of playing a match if you don't even know what to do if you land a hit? That's what I was referring to. Obviously the idea of what's fun is up to each person, but you should definitely think about when you're playing for fun and when it's time to actually learn and get better. It's cool. I was sure you didn't mean it that way, which is why I explained. I don't think I'm "just pushing buttons", there's things I'm trying to do but I'm not good at them yet. I have 5k CT matches!!! Star Demon.... I know its hard, but if you ask for advice, you should be willing to give it a good listen unless that person was directly insulting you. I'm still convinced that your a troll, but Zeth went out of his way to give you actual advice. At least don't be a douchebag back to him. (He spent some of his actual time doing so.) I'm trying to listen but I can't help but feel like I'm getting hazed or something. It's hard not to take it personally. I'm not a troll. You should talk with me sometime. Edited December 5, 2011 by Star-Demon
Linear04 Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 yeah he's just clue less about things sometimes
DaiAndOh Posted December 5, 2011 Author Posted December 5, 2011 Well I went out for a weekend again and what do you know things blew the fu... Oh wait. We resolved this like civil gentlemen. Good job guys. On another note, CSEX Bang is better than CS2 Bang by a fair margin. On a 3rd note, training mode can also be used to train things like instant blocking and punishes. Recording feature ftw.
zeth07 Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 You say "I have a lot of.. Dora and Dacidbro in my diet", which I'm guessing means something like you play too gimmicky without understanding your options. The first thing to understand is (And Dora is better at this than me) the weird options I use aren't weird in application. They're sometimes somewhat gimmicky, but every time I use an option there are a number of very specific outcomes I'm looking for, to test my opponent. For example, one of the first things I'll do with my opponent is see if they actually understand 6D. If I press 6D on wakeup 5 times in a row, and the outcomes are: GuardPointed, successful hit GuardPointed, successful hit Grabbed Guardpointed, hit out anyway Guardpointed, successful hit Those odds are probably in my favor to just keep throwing it, honestly, because Bang's 6D is such high reward. This player has given me no reason to stop mashing on 6D, and is essentially giving me a free win. But if it looks like this: Guardpointed, successful hit Overhead counterhit me Guardpointed, then grabbed Grabbed Overhead counterhit me Obviously I'm getting blown up for it, and I need to stop using that option right away. BUT, because I have conditioned them to beat 6D, other options are more available. Backdash is likely to be more effective, because the odds of them using a move with quick recovery is less likely (Although jab mash is a decently effective way to beat 6D too, and that would beat backdash with a slight callout). Reversal Ashura is much more likely to land now, because it beats grabs and overheads. Even 5D could likely be used on reaction to a poorly meatied overhead. Basically, if you watch someone play in a way that looks really high risk, you need to look deeper into the match. Discover the reasons these hits land for these players, but don't for you. (And the 5 wakeup 6D's is mostly a reference, I wouldn't recommend that very often) The other piece of advice I would give is to understand every move's place. 3C is a strong footsies tool with good reads. 6C is your highest reward read based anti air. TK Double Palm is strong mid screen footsies with high reward on CH. Etc, etc DacidBro's Advice: Gets praised My Advice: Gets mad Makes no sense. "3C strong footsies" = How is 3C a strong footsies tool? 3C is something you should use sparingly, at certain distances, or if you at least have 50% meter to RC. A strong footsies tool is something you can use nearly all the time, 5A,5B,j.A,j.B, Nails I guess. "6C anti-air" = Come on man, you can't honestly say you would be throwing out 6C as an anti-air. You might land that 1/100 times and even then it probably wasn't on purpose, and good luck hitconfirming a proper combo off it when used in that way since you need a CH to land anything solid. 6C is used for max punishes for blocked DPs/Distortions and of course combo filler, I would never recommend trying to use it as an anti-air. "TK Double Palm strong footsies" = It is a gimmick at best. Just because Dora did it in ONE video to a Noel and it worked, doesn't make it something you should be using all the time. You can use it to catch your opponent off guard / throw them off / or trolling. It is not something you should be using a lot and again I would not say it is a "strong footsie tool". How often do you see other Japanese Bangs do it? Of all the things to give advice about, those are like most rare instances of landing a hit, and NOT something I would be giving advice about to someone new to be using. My advice was about practical and fundamental stuff that a new person would need to work on, and yet he gets mad, lol. Oh well though.
YukiBlue Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Is TK Double Palm better than standing Double Palm? Faster recovery or something?
zeth07 Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Is TK Double Palm better than standing Double Palm? Faster recovery or something? Yes.
Star-Demon Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 DacidBro's Advice: Gets praised My Advice: Gets mad Makes no sense. My advice was about practical and fundamental stuff that a new person would need to work on, and yet he gets mad, lol. Oh well though. It really is *how* you say something. Ignoring that I've talked with Dacid before and he was really helpful to me in the past, his post laid out my misconceptions about him and illustrated his points well. I acknowledged you were trying to help, but you seem frustrated at me, and in other threads and in streams you usually sound frustrated or even upset at my mistakes. I mean, the advice is free, and I appreciate it, and I'm listening. Just letting you know. I come in peace!
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