[CS1-CSE] Road to Ikaruga - The Bang Social thread - Do you even 3c?

[Dacidbro]

DacidBro's Advice: Gets praised

My Advice: Gets mad

Makes no sense.

"3C strong footsies" = How is 3C a strong footsies tool? 3C is something you should use sparingly, at certain distances, or if you at least have 50% meter to RC. A strong footsies tool is something you can use nearly all the time, 5A,5B,j.A,j.B, Nails I guess.

"6C anti-air" = Come on man, you can't honestly say you would be throwing out 6C as an anti-air. You might land that 1/100 times and even then it probably wasn't on purpose, and good luck hitconfirming a proper combo off it when used in that way since you need a CH to land anything solid. 6C is used for max punishes for blocked DPs/Distortions and of course combo filler, I would never recommend trying to use it as an anti-air.

"TK Double Palm strong footsies" = It is a gimmick at best. Just because Dora did it in ONE video to a Noel and it worked, doesn't make it something you should be using all the time. You can use it to catch your opponent off guard / throw them off / or trolling. It is not something you should be using a lot and again I would not say it is a "strong footsie tool". How often do you see other Japanese Bangs do it?

Of all the things to give advice about, those are like most rare instances of landing a hit, and NOT something I would be giving advice about to someone new to be using.

My advice was about practical and fundamental stuff that a new person would need to work on, and yet he gets mad, lol.

Oh well though.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or serious, but this post really looks bad on you.

Also I have to mention I really don't like your tone either. If I was star, I'd probably get mad too. But I still went out of my way to defend what you said, and you still find the nuts to critique everything I said. Well honestly I don't care what you think about what I said, if I did I'd probably have asked you for advice. You can save it next time.

Nothing I said is outlandish, and you can find video of strong bang players (Most importantly Dora, who was top 4 SBO) using all of them.

People like you make no one ever want to use forums. Fear of you responding to things I say and having to have some annoying fruitless conversation over it is like a dark spot on the Bang forums that will never go away. I appreciate all you did for the video thread, but for the love of god brighten up and stop talking down to everyone.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Dacidbro

[mAc Chaos]

strong footsies tool with GOOD READS

[zeth07]

I'm not sure if you're trolling or serious, but this post really looks bad on you.

Also I have to mention I really don't like your tone either. If I was star, I'd probably get mad too. But I still went out of my way to defend what you said, and you still find the nuts to critique everything I said. Well honestly I don't care what you think about what I said, if I did I'd probably have asked you for advice. You can save it next time.

Nothing I said is outlandish, and you can find video of strong bang players (Most importantly Dora, who was top 4 SBO) using all of them.

People like you make no one ever want to use forums. Fear of you responding to things I say and having to have some annoying fruitless conversation over it is like a dark spot on the Bang forums that will never go away. I appreciate all you did for the video thread, but for the love of god brighten up and stop talking down to everyone.

Not really sure where you're getting a "tone" from what I said. It's the same thing with Star I guess, if you read my post in a normal "tone" of voice, I don't really see how it's being mean or talking down on anyone. It's not like I personally attack you or Star in any of my posts.

My point with the post about yours was just the fact that the stuff you're talking about wasn't something a new player should even consider doing. Yet he's all happy about your advice, and gets pissed at me, I just didn't understand that at all. I mean seriously though, what part of my other posts was like a personal attack or me "hazing" him? And my thoughts on those moves apparently differs greatly from yours I guess, so it is what it is about that.

If I need to brighten up, other people need to not be so sensitive (even though there was no malice in anything I said anyway...)

Anyone who has read my posts in the past knows I've never called people scrubs or noobs or anything remotely like that, I pretty much never talk down on people unless someone is specifically talking shit and I always try and help people. So honestly I don't even know where half this stuff is coming from. But I guess I gotta walk on glass around here, noted.

strong footsies tool with GOOD READS

Like I said, I guess my definition of what "strong footsies" are is different then his or yours. Things that are used rarely or only in certain instances don't really fit in the category of strong footsies for me, but it's whatever. Agree to disagree I guess lol.

Edited December 6, 2011 by zeth07

[Linear04]

you cant really agree to disagree on something that is based on a fact based statement... not saying either is right because i dont know shit about this character lol

[huey253]

i dunno, I feel like i'm like in a weird twlight zone right now and zeth is stuck there too...

6C anti air is not only very unreliable and risky, but it also has pretty low reward

3C is good vs Zoning characters and only ok at best vs other character if you are "sure" or you have meter to RC, but its not really that good for footsies.

It is good for punishing landing recovery on certain air normals and specials (hint: people should use this more)

TK supercrash isn't for footsies. He was doing it defeat all of noel's drives. You really shouldn't be using it outside of this with the exception of calling something out.

It seems like people understand what the top players such as Dora are doing, but don't understand the "why" behind it.

Gimmicky play is fine and all, but it won't help improve one's fundamentals much. I don't think Zeth is mad at Dacid, but rather dissappointed that he would encourage him learn gimmicky tactics rather than trying to build his fundamentals.

[Lord Cruxis]

Not really sure where you're getting a "tone" from what I said. It's the same thing with Star I guess, if you read my post in a normal "tone" of voice, I don't really see how it's being mean or talking down on anyone. It's not like I personally attack you or Star in any of my posts.

My point with the post about yours was just the fact that the stuff you're talking about wasn't something a new player should even consider doing. Yet he's all happy about your advice, and gets pissed at me, I just didn't understand that at all. I mean seriously though, what part of my other posts was like a personal attack or me "hazing" him? And my thoughts on those moves apparently differs greatly from yours I guess, so it is what it is about that.

If I need to brighten up, other people need to not be so sensitive (even though there was no malice in anything I said anyway...)

Anyone who has read my posts in the past knows I've never called people scrubs or noobs or anything remotely like that, I pretty much never talk down on people unless someone is specifically talking shit and I always try and help people. So honestly I don't even know where half this stuff is coming from. But I guess I gotta walk on glass around here, noted.

Like I said, I guess my definition of what "strong footsies" are is different then his or yours. Things that are used rarely or only in certain instances don't really fit in the category of strong footsies for me, but it's whatever. Agree to disagree I guess lol.

MAN its been forever since I been here. Freaking marvel hogging that attention :X

[Dacidbro]

i dunno, I feel like i'm like in a weird twlight zone right now and zeth is stuck there too...

6C anti air is not only very unreliable and risky, but it also has pretty low reward

3C is good vs Zoning characters and only ok at best vs other character if you are "sure" or you have meter to RC, but its not really that good for footsies.

It is good for punishing landing recovery on certain air normals and specials (hint: people should use this more)

TK supercrash isn't for footsies. He was doing it defeat all of noel's drives. You really shouldn't be using it outside of this with the exception of calling something out.

It seems like people understand what the top players such as Dora are doing, but don't understand the "why" behind it.

Gimmicky play is fine and all, but it won't help improve one's fundamentals much. I don't think Zeth is mad at Dacid, but rather dissappointed that he would encourage him learn gimmicky tactics rather than trying to build his fundamentals.

What, you think I don't understand these options either? I'm not encouraging gimmicky play, I'm encouraging reads. Tired of people trying to play entirely on reaction, no top player ever does that. These choices aren't gimmicky, they're call outs. They DO work, and top Japanese players do use them.

TK Supercrash can definitely be used for footsies, the reward is high and the hitbox is very potent, and certain characters can't punish very hard at all.

3C is similar, low profiles most pokes and on CH is massive reward. This tool is crucial for Bang to win grounded footsies, because it's the only one he has that wins against certain characters like Makoto at max range, where she can confirm full combo and Bang can't if it's a 5B or 2B poke.

6C is of course a very, very hard read, but yes it does work, and it converts into massive damage. I used this to great success at NWM, when people attempted to jump out of the corner.

Why are these choices bad to present to a new player? Do you want him to grow as a player thinking these options are somehow taboo? These are options, not using a character's options is ludicrous, if they do work. And they do.

Zeth, it's the implications of what you say. "Come on man you can't really say you would be throwing 6C as an anti air" is very demeaning of what I had just said. "How often do you see other JP Bangs do it?" also implies I have no idea what I'm talking about. It's really annoying. I've worked hard to develop my ability in this game and think long and hard about what works and why, so when I say that these tools CAN be used, not even that they should be used frequently, and it's met with a 4 paragraph post for why not, It's frustrating.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Dacidbro

[huey253]

i'm not disagreeing on the fact that you should be making hard reads (I mentioned it several times throughout my post) but I really feel that he should focus on improving his fundamentals rather than making hard reads. I never said that any of things you said aren't useful at all...

bang's 5B is super godly in groundfootsies... even in CS2. It is solid enough to rely on. You also get 5B 2B 3C from max range, which is pretty good. (3C is hard knockdown)

[Dacidbro]

But Zeth certainly did, that's what I'm saying. Or, if not "aren't useful at all", implied the way I suggested them was a terrible suggestion. It's not, new players need to learn about reads early.

[huey253]

I just don't see how bang's 3C can be more vital to ground footsies over bang's 5B.

[Dacidbro]

It's not, everyone already knows Bang's 5B is vital. You can pick that up in any video. I'm mentioning the tools that people look over, but are still extremely important and can change the flow of a match by being present. If a bang is only using 5A, 2A, 5B, 2B, I can outpoke him in my sleep with the top tier in this iteration, in terms of risk reward. So he can't contest it. But with 3C, he can.

I'm saying even if you use 5B at neutral 7 times as often as 3C, if you NEVER use 3C, your grounded footsies are much weaker, because the threat of 3C isn't there to supplement it.

[huey253]

It's not, everyone already knows Bang's 5B is vital. You can pick that up in any video. I'm mentioning the tools that people look over, but are still extremely important and can change the flow of a match by being present. If a bang is only using 5A, 2A, 5B, 2B, I can outpoke him in my sleep with the top tier in this iteration, in terms of risk reward. So he can't contest it. But with 3C, he can.

I'm saying even if you use 5B at neutral 7 times as often as 3C, if you NEVER use 3C, your grounded footsies are much weaker, because the threat of 3C isn't there to supplement it.

Yes! this is correct. You really did a horrible job stating it though tbh. I understand what you mean and I agree completely. I bet Zeth probably feels about the same on this manner.

I think you should've said something about the "people look over" statement when you first posted... Unless you did and I missed it?

[Dacidbro]

Yes! this is correct. You really did a horrible job stating it though tbh. I understand what you mean and I agree completely. I bet Zeth probably feels about the same on this manner.

I think you should've said something about the "people look over" statement when you first posted... Unless you did and I missed it?

If it's that important to his footsies though, surely that's worth mentioning? If this is the only thing that can make certain characters respect Bang's grounded pokes, it must be important? And strong?

I didn't say it that well, but the words I used were all correct.

[huey253]

If it's that important to his footsies though, surely that's worth mentioning? If this is the only thing that can make certain characters respect Bang's grounded pokes, it must be important? And strong?

I didn't say it that well, but the words I used were all correct.

I guess when someone asks how to improve their fundamentals, I would consider your answer not so great because of the fact that you only listed these call out moves/

Bang beats everybody on the ground except Ragna in terms of ground pokes (imo). Makoto' damage on 5B isn't realistically much higher than Bang's. unless she has meter and instantly confirms into Particle Flare.

Even with bang's damage so low in this version of blazblue, the reason he is viable and good is because of the fact that everybody does have to respect bang's game.

His character design doesn't really allow it to not happen.

Edited December 6, 2011 by huey253

[Dacidbro]

I guess when someone asks how to improve their fundamentals, I would consider your answer not so great because of the fact that you only listed these call out moves/

Bang beats everybody on the ground except Ragna in terms of ground pokes (imo). Makoto' damage on 5B isn't realistically much higher than Bang's. unless she has meter and instantly confirms into Particle Flare.

Even with bang's damage so low in this version of blazblue, the reason he is viable and good is because of the fact that everybody does have to respect bang's game.

His character design doesn't really allow it to not happen.

I'd rather not give stale advice, or advice that could be so easily learned. You can watch literally any bang and know 5B is important, but you might not understand the underlying threat of 3C. I give people different advice, so they can try it themselves. Find out why it's good AND why it's bad, people need to mash on some shit and lose some matches. That's a real lesson in risk reward. You need to understand every tool available, not just the ones you'll use every round or every other round.

Why do I have to tell someone something they can already find in a thousand different places plain as day anyway? I focus on what's hard.

[mAc Chaos]

I think you would want to focus on the most basic fundamentals first, for a new player, so you don't confuse them. The more advanced stuff, even if they read it, will just fall on deaf ears since they won't be able to use it properly. Though I suppose just having it out there for when they CAN handle it is fine.

[Dacidbro]

I know if someone tries to tell me how to play a game, and literally removes my options because they don't think I can take it in, I get very mad when I lose because I didn't know that option existed. I don't want to give this guy a dull blade, I'll make it sharp and if he cuts himself so be it. A dull blade is more dangerous to a professional, because it doesn't WORK. Lets give our new players a fair start.

[Tari]

I know if someone tries to tell me how to play a game, and literally removes my options because they don't think I can take it in, I get very mad when I lose because I didn't know that option existed. I don't want to give this guy a dull blade, I'll make it sharp and if he cuts himself so be it. A dull blade is more dangerous to a professional, because it doesn't WORK. Lets give our new players a fair start.

I think the argument is that a sharp blade is best, but a sharp blade without a handle is rather, uh... hard to use.

Gotta have the best of both worlds!

[mAc Chaos]

I know if someone tries to tell me how to play a game, and literally removes my options because they don't think I can take it in, I get very mad when I lose because I didn't know that option existed. I don't want to give this guy a dull blade, I'll make it sharp and if he cuts himself so be it. A dull blade is more dangerous to a professional, because it doesn't WORK. Lets give our new players a fair start.

Well, it's not like we're never going to give it to them, period. But people develop in stages. It's not really a matter of a "fair start" since they wouldn't be able to use it anyway. It's like dumping a bunch of calculus equations on someone in second grade. It's not going to even do anything. But later when they start improving, there's no law saying we can't show it to them then or they can't start seeking it out.

It's hard to say you're wrong though, because I'm the same way as you. But I just assume everybody else needs to go one step at a time or whatever. I mean, I still go back and watch Haku CT videos, and I remember watching them way back when and wondering what the hell they were doing. But now I look back, and I see stuff that they were doing all the way back then that I just picked up like five months ago and thought was new. That or there would be something always there as an option, but it would be invisible to me until I had developed the prerequisite skill to handle it. Then all of a sudden it was like a light bulb went off and I saw how it was to be used, as if it was so obvious all along.

Edited December 6, 2011 by mAc Chaos

[huey253]

I'd rather not give stale advice, or advice that could be so easily learned. You can watch literally any bang and know 5B is important, but you might not understand the underlying threat of 3C. I give people different advice, so they can try it themselves. Find out why it's good AND why it's bad, people need to mash on some shit and lose some matches. That's a real lesson in risk reward. You need to understand every tool available, not just the ones you'll use every round or every other round.

Why do I have to tell someone something they can already find in a thousand different places plain as day anyway? I focus on what's hard.

because MANY PEOPLE don't understand the mentality behind the players and the motive behind the actions. Its honestly alot more common than you think.

I'm not questioning how important 3C is, or how it supplements bang's footsie game, but rather, how someone who seems to me like they are a casual player who is trying to level up their game should do to improve. From watching his videos, it honestly seemed that he needed to improve his basic gameplan and develop a better neutral game. I'm not saying that 3C doesn't help at all, but I feel like it wouldn't be the first and only thing you mention to that player.

[Dacidbro]

Well if he's not going to learn why people should not use 3C, even if just by trial and error, how serious is he? If I use a move and get punched in the face for it, I learn where not to use it much better than someone telling me why I shouldn't use it.

[Lord Knight]

Wow, lol.

[DaiAndOh]

Well if he's not going to learn why people should not use 3C, even if just by trial and error, how serious is he? If I use a move and get punched in the face for it, I learn where not to use it much better than someone telling me why I shouldn't use it.

Well to be fair, you can't hurt someone for actually telling you why not to do something if they have a reason why. Nothing subs for experience, but it's still trying to be helpful.

On another note, I admit I'm super skeptical about 6c anti-air. You got vids of that Dacid?

Wow, lol.

Hi LK. Is your board like this?

[Dacidbro]

Wow, lol.

What do you think? Tell a new player every tool, or just the most common?

[huey253]

Well to be fair, you can't hurt someone for actually telling you why not to do something if they have a reason why. Nothing subs for experience, but it's still trying to be helpful.

On another note, I admit I'm super skeptical about 6c anti-air. You got vids of that Dacid?

Hi LK. Is your board like this?

lets netplay gundam when i get my copy... I heard netplay is super good!