Sophisticat Posted October 12, 2011 Author Posted October 12, 2011 Eh, his dmg output should still be higher overall and more consistent mid-screen so yeah, it all evens out. My only nitpick is that damage across combos in relation to star expenditure is rather constant. I.e., there's no real burst damage present unless you start with a high p1 move and at least 5s or something. I kind of liked Haku's sometimes explosive damage of yore. But, eh... can't complain since this Haku's looking pretty strong already and there's always the corner to give you a nice boost.
mjting Posted October 12, 2011 Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) Agreed with first point. Eh? but I think he still retains most of his explosive combos based on the videos. We just aren't able to see people land the big ones we are familiar with. airgrab combos same dmg 6d combo so far same damage grab combo even stronger on wall with the addition of 6a before 5c 3c ender, possibly 3.2k instead of 3.1 Tsubaki combo on corner still stupid good. In the taokaka vid, he did tsubaki to uncharged 6c, doing 2.7k then went to do one loop where it already reached 4.3k and should end up with 5 something thousand damage. I practice that combo, and level 1 6c is indeed 2.7, with level 2 going up to 2.9. So, the only nerf I noticed is the hotaru then 2c on wall, or 3/4 screen> wall hotaru combo with 2c as the first follow up. Even with that, It's STILL a freaking 4k combo. I'm not saying other characters cant reach that damage from 3.4 screen to wall, but some others like ragna only reach 3.5-3.8k, so haku is already prolly in the cream of the crop with regards to that. I can actually already see this combo to make up for that. hotaru>6c>6a, then corner loop. Stupid good stuff. Shouldnt we update the mods on the complete changes thread on the hotaru damage nerf? Edited October 12, 2011 by mjting
Sophisticat Posted October 12, 2011 Author Posted October 12, 2011 What I mean is that his proration curve took a big hit going into CS2 with reduced dmg across the board save for high p1 starters. In this version, although his dmg is ameliorated, I've noticed his avg dmg mid-screen is ~3k when this was ~4k just in CS1. Even if you spent extra stars to boost this dmg, it would be subject to severe diminishing returns that curb his burst dmg potential. For example, just in CT I recall doing something like 5c -> Zan -> 5c -> Dustloop dished out ~5.5k+ alone right there. So if you wanted to deal a large amount of instant dmg, you could just spend more stars and you got it. Now, the focus is more centered on efficient use of stars and there's almost no burst dmg unless the conditions are right for it. They took the control of dmg slightly out of your hands in favour of a more strategic/streamlined approach. While good for a more consistent playstyle, it lacks the hype/wildcard factor of CT Haku. New Haku = Algorithm smoothed, statistically streamlined, and quantitatively optimized version at the expense of icky and barbarous outlier factors noobs hate. It's like a new industry when it's first discovered; it's very unstructured at first, but as it matures, it prefers dudes with MBAs and Ph.Ds over people with talent... lol
mjting Posted October 12, 2011 Posted October 12, 2011 ....My head almost exploded, but I get your point. I thought you were talking abt cs2>csex. But if it was cs1>cs2/ex, then I agree, cs1 had ridiculous amounts of damage for the amount of meter you used.
Spark Posted October 12, 2011 Posted October 12, 2011 Posting Extend proration changes in a little bit.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted October 12, 2011 Posted October 12, 2011 Post here when you update it. So we'll know, how did you get the data no mook is out. Are you doing your traditional secret calculation stuff based on the videos of him so far?
Moblin Posted October 12, 2011 Posted October 12, 2011 Seems like that's what he's doing based on what he said in the thread he made. I'd never have the patience or the math skills to do it, so it's really awesome that Spark is doing that! Also there's a new vid up of Haku getting astral'd by relius... what exactly is he bound to? A magatama seal?
Spark Posted October 12, 2011 Posted October 12, 2011 The math is pretty simple, it just takes a while. Anyway a small update to the thread, nothing notable besides fixing Hotaru's proration.
Schneider-X Posted October 12, 2011 Posted October 12, 2011 There's some footage of PRFARMY's hakumen. Fully charged 4C has crazy reach with the slide forward, though hakumen's hitbox most likely still extends very far forward. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVC1-ZHBj9o
mjting Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) What I noticed was, you can almost always fit J.b before every J.A now. CH 3c>2b>gurren>hop>2c>jb>j2a>jb>j2a jc got a whopping 3k already. and thats like, just the staple midscreen. 0_0 Edited October 13, 2011 by mjting
BladeOfJustice7 Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) The math is pretty simple, it just takes a while. Anyway a small update to the thread, nothing notable besides fixing Hotaru's proration. Simple for someone who's good in math lol. I'm guessing you finished updating it? I haven't really checked the thread much, been flogged down with school. There's some footage of PRFARMY's hakumen. Fully charged 4C has crazy reach with the slide forward, though hakumen's hitbox most likely still extends very far forward. It just pushes him forward really fast, I imagine I'll be using this by accident or if I'm trolling... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVC1-ZHBj9o Am I the only found who found he played like ass for the most part of the matches? What I noticed was, you can almost always fit J.b before every J.A now. CH 3c>2b>gurren>hop>2c>jb>j2a>jb>j2a jc got a whopping 3k already. and thats like, just the staple midscreen. 0_0 2c>jb>j2a>AD>jb>j2a>jc is pretty sexy I won't lie. EDIT: Spark can you change the video thread name in the parentheses into [CS2/EX]? Thanks. Edited October 13, 2011 by BladeOfJustice7
entnervt Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) And those combos with jB>j2A>ad>jB>j2A have good corner carry-potential without consuming any or just a small amount of magatama. Edited October 13, 2011 by entnervt
BladeOfJustice7 Posted October 15, 2011 Posted October 15, 2011 Why aren't hakumen players making use of 6a? Is there a reason behind it I'm unaware of?
dioxideUniversa Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) Why aren't hakumen players making use of 6a? Is there a reason behind it I'm unaware of? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Oy353WYWTs#t=11m26s ? Serious answer: Also wondering about this. It seems to work out well whenever I do see it used. Maybe it's less easy to use compared to other AAs? I don't particularly want to speculate without having my hands on it. It does seem like comboing off it off a CH is a potential issue. Edited October 16, 2011 by dioxideUniversa
Moblin Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 It seems like it may have repeat prorate maybe? Or perhaps it's slow enough that you can feint a jump in and punish it, thereby making it less useful. Or maybe the invul frames aren't really that good. Dunno. Either way, It apparently has its place as a combo tool. I can't wait for this game to come out in the states so I can find out for myself.
entnervt Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 By the vids seen untill now, I would say that the Hakumen-players are simply not aware of 6A as anti-air. Just wait and you`ll see it more as a anti-air. There were already some videos where 6a was used as anti-air as well as a "combo-extender", imo it`s just a matter of time to see 6A more consistently used.
Dream Maker Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) Most people are of course aware of it be it Hakumen or non-Hakumen players. You can combo on CH with straight guren even midscreen. 6A AA is not as almighty as you guys seem to think (IE not Ragna's 6A or CT Haku 6A) for 2 reasons, first invincibility is kinda slow to come out so you have to anticipate a little bit and it makes Haku move a little forward which can make it whiff on some occasions. It's definitely a good new tool for Hakumen though. I think one reason you don't see it that much on vids is also because now, people are aware that you cannot jump in on Hakumen as easily as in CS2/CS so they won't take stupid risks. Basically against Hakumen they now have to do as they did before against other characters with decent or good AA. Edited October 16, 2011 by Dream Maker
mAc Chaos Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 Yeah, the one big difference is the huge step forward he takes compared to his CT 6A which could make the spacing weird.
Moblin Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 I like that you shouldn't need to spend an extra Mag on gurren anymore after hitting with 6c in the corner to correct the spacing if it's too far. Just 6a.
IndigoNovember Posted October 16, 2011 Posted October 16, 2011 It seems like using 6a instead of Gurren still messes up the combo at times. I've seen several combos dropped with the 6a added in. Weird combo proration stuff I suppose.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Most people are of course aware of it be it Hakumen or non-Hakumen players. You can combo on CH with straight guren even midscreen. 6A AA is not as almighty as you guys seem to think (IE not Ragna's 6A or CT Haku 6A) for 2 reasons, first invincibility is kinda slow to come out so you have to anticipate a little bit and it makes Haku move a little forward which can make it whiff on some occasions. It's definitely a good new tool for Hakumen though. I think one reason you don't see it that much on vids is also because now, people are aware that you cannot jump in on Hakumen as easily as in CS2/CS so they won't take stupid risks. Basically against Hakumen they now have to do as they did before against other characters with decent or good AA. No offense, but that's a given fact. I think they're just adjusting to the new AA, we've been without one for 2 games now. I assume as the game evolves we'll see more use of it. It seems like using 6a instead of Gurren still messes up the combo at times. I've seen several combos dropped with the 6a added in. Weird combo proration stuff I suppose. What?
Moblin Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 That's true, every time I've seen them use 6a the combo has dropped shortly after. But I also remember a lot of the times that happened, they used 6a earlier in the combo. Maybe repeat proration... but it's not in the notes so IDK.
Dream Maker Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) No offense, but that's a given fact. I think they're just adjusting to the new AA, we've been without one for 2 games now. I assume as the game evolves we'll see more use of it. Well, I must admit I don't have frame data or anything to back that up but that's my personal impression after several hours of playing the new Hakumen. For example I got beaten several times trying to use 6A after blocking Hazama's chain in order to counter his following air attack approach. You're free to believe whatever you want though. As for 6A in combos it's indeed very possible that they put repeat proration to avoid abuses with wallbounces, haven't checked that. Anyway untechable time after bouncing is pretty short, so it's better to use the move very early in the combo. But I can confirm that 5C, 1 hit renka, kishu, slightly charged 6C, 6A, 2C, HJ2A, j2C, 2C, j2A, air dash, j2A, jC, 5C, 3C works perfectly well and I think I also got the same kind of combo from tsubaki, slightly charged 6C, 6A, etc... Edited October 17, 2011 by Dream Maker
BladeOfJustice7 Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Well, I must admit I don't have frame data or anything to back that up but that's my personal impression after several hours of playing the new Hakumen. For example I got beaten several times trying to use 6A after blocking Hazama's chain in order to counter his following air attack approach. You're free to believe whatever you want though. With or without IB'ing the chain first? Because from what I remember, I've never seen ragna AA hazama after a follow up from his chain. However, that may be different if the chain is IB'ed, but I've rarely seen that. Though I don't doubt what you're saying, only the circumstances around it, I haven't seen anyone AA hazama's chain follow ups. If you could easily AA his follow ups the threat of his chains would be very minimal.
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