[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[mAc Chaos]

Oh, so you mean you can do it in other combos besides Hotaru starter?

Also, I was always wondering how to do throw > Renka(1) in the corner because I could never get that to work properly. Although I'm not even sure if the 2 stars for an extra 1000 damage or whatever is even worth it.

[Moblin]

Actually, I've never seen anyone do it with hotaru as a starter, only after using hotaru in the middle of the combo, and in the corner.There are two times that I see japanese hakus use 5c >2C link:

1. Corner BnB, anything starter > renka(1) > kishuu > 6c > 2C > Hotaru, jump cancel > j.2c > 5C > 2C > loop(2 or 3 depending on starter)

This combo does 7.5k if started with 5c, and it's haku's best corner combo I believe.

2. Enma combo going into corner, Enma > J.2c > 5C > 2c > corner loop

And you gotta do 2C before the Renka(1) or both kicks will hit

[itsme]

I do 5C 2C during the regular Kishuu Enma combo near corners too.

Also, there was a new CSEX Hakumen basics video on nico and I was severely disappointed when I saw that only 2D and Yukikaze can punish green bursts now; 6D, 5D and jD all whiffs. Gold bursts are still punished by all of his drive though.

[mAc Chaos]

You could just block and punish still, can't you?

I thought I saw throw combos going into renka(1) that didn't involve 2C first...

What's the kishuu enma combo near the corner you do that involves 5C 2C? I usually do [starter] > 623AA > j.2C > 2C > j.2A > j.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C > land > j.2A > j.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C > 5C > 3C.

[itsme]

Yeah but it loses the hype value and now you can't punish bursts during a Mugen :V. But yeah, block and punish is safer and nets the better damage.

Also, the enma combo I do near corner is starter > Enma > j.2C > 5C > 2C > j.2A > j.2C > 2C > j.2A > AD j.2A > j.C > ender. Does like 3~3.5k ish depending on the starter.

EDIT: Okay, I might be fuzzy on the details since I just let my fingers do the work but there might be no loop at all so maybe it was just starter > Enma > j.2C > 5C > 2C > j.2A > AD j.2A > j.C > ender. I swear there was at least one loop in there though.

[Moblin]

There's a loop. 5c starter does 4k, straight up enma is about 3.4.

I am really excited for all the new midscreen combo options haku has in EX. I can't wait to learn them all

[IndigoNovember]

Oh, so you mean you can do it in other combos besides Hotaru starter?

You can use the 5c -> 2c link with a Hotaru starter, but it doesn't end up being doing more damage or getting more meter when compared to just Hotaru -> land 6c -> HOP Corner Loop (2) . It's only really used in the situations Moblin specified.

Also, I was always wondering how to do throw > Renka(1) in the corner because I could never get that to work properly. Although I'm not even sure if the 2 stars for an extra 1000 damage or whatever is even worth it.

Are you sure you're not thinking of Throw -> 2c -> Renka(1) -> Corner Loop (1) ? Where the second hit of Renka whiffs on certain characters and the whole thing whiffs on others.

I thought I saw throw combos going into renka(1) that didn't involve 2C first...

I don't believe you can get the opponent high enough that the second hit of Renka would whiff, unless you did something like 2c...

[Wander]

If kishuu went through inferno divider, will it also go under other DPs?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdAH6MoL7SA#t=07m23s

[dioxideUniversa]

Speaking of 5c 2c in combos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEGvcC5qauw#t=13m35s

[Moblin]

Speaking of 5c 2c in combos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEGvcC5qauw#t=13m35s

I can't tell if he meant to do that or just fucked up his combo and it somehow worked. lol

[Darkside937]

If kishuu went through inferno divider, will it also go under other DPs?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdAH6MoL7SA#t=07m23s

This made my day. If kishuu can make dps whiff, it opens up a world of possibilities for haku's pressure since it will be that much harder for them to escape, not to mention baiting/trolling attempts. I wonder if you can time and space kishuu on their wake up so both reversals and throws whiff. New combo options look sexy too, I can't wait to take haku to the CSE lab :D

[C0R]

This made my day. If kishuu can make dps whiff, it opens up a world of possibilities for haku's pressure since it will be that much harder for them to escape, not to mention baiting/trolling attempts. I wonder if you can time and space kishuu on their wake up so both reversals and throws whiff. New combo options look sexy too, I can't wait to take haku to the CSE lab :D

You can bait wakeup options without meter more effectively with meaty 2b, just as you would in any of the other BB installments.

[Darkside937]

You can bait wakeup options without meter more effectively with meaty 2b, just as you would in any of the other BB installments.

I already know 2B works for ID, but since when does it work against jayoku or most other reversals? If it does that's news to me.

[Tong]

Hmm, it seems that the double relaunch combos still works on CT

623AA (HJC) delay j.2C delay j.C 2C (HJC) delay j.2C j.C 2C (HJC) j.2C AD j.2C j.2C

If you guys needs a video ask away, it's beautiful.

[C0R]

I already know 2B works for ID, but since when does it work against jayoku or most other reversals? If it does that's news to me.

Reversal supers are in their own bucket, I'm sure Kishuu won't be beating Magna tech wheel, 720, F-inverse or anything like them in the next game.

2b will clash or low profile through Makoto/Mu/Ragna's DP's, most of the other ones are projectiles, Tsubaki and Litchi mainly.. It will also recover in time to block / beat a lot of supers with invulnerability, such as Daifunka or Tao's 214214c as quick examples.

[Darkside937]

Reversal supers are in their own bucket, I'm sure Kishuu won't be beating Magna tech wheel, 720, F-inverse or anything like them in the next game.

2b will clash or low profile through Makoto/Mu/Ragna's DP's, most of the other ones are projectiles, Tsubaki and Litchi mainly.. It will also recover in time to block / beat a lot of supers with invulnerability, such as Daifunka or Tao's 214214c as quick examples.

In CSE, kishuu is body/projectile invincible after 5 frames. Anything that isn't a throw should whiff (although stuff that stays out for a while like mtw might be able to hit it out of non-invincible recovery depending on if it has any, the last I heard from jbbs didn't mention if it did so i'm not sure).

[mAc Chaos]

lows should still hit him out of it i think

[Darkside937]

lows should still hit him out of it i think

Of course (as well as head att moves), but I don't think there are any foot att reversals in the game.

[IndigoNovember]

Of course (as well as head att moves), but I don't think there are any foot att reversals in the game.

Wait, I'm pretty sure Kishuu is still head attribute invincible.

Kishuu : travel distance increased, head, body and projectile attribute invincibility added from frame 5

[SansProtocol]

Reversals can be beat by buffered 6D/5D if need be, so there's no real need for Kishuu for those. If people are trying to slip reversals through the holes in your blockstrings, then just cancel the normal into one of your Drive counters.

[Darkside937]

Kishuu : travel distance increased, head, body and projectile attribute invincibility added from frame 5

Neat, I didn't realize it's now head att invincible. I thought it still just low profiled stuff.

Reversals can be beat by buffered 6D/5D if need be, so there's no real need for Kishuu for those. If people are trying to slip reversals through the holes in your blockstrings, then just cancel the normal into one of your Drive counters.

If you're talking about super flash buffering then that's true, but I'd rather spend a star, make their reversal whiff, and get a 5C counterhit starter than settle for the ~2K damage I'd get from a massively prorated 6D combo.

Using Kishuu during blockstrings to bait reversals depends on if it has punishable (non attribute invincible) recovery. If it doesn't, it would definitely be much safer then using Zanshin and possibly eating a counter hit. Plus, if their move you Kishuu'd through was slow enough you should be able to punish with your own combo (it would be fairly easy to punish a mashed dp in a blockstring--this is exactly what the Haku did in the video), and if they keep blocking it gets you back in.

But I didn't mean to incite a debate, I just commented that I thought it sounded like a nice buff. If anyone think counters are better for the situations I explained, then use them. I will be using Kishuu as I described.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Darkside937

[kotokot]

have seen in jbbs, that j.B can be canceled on 10F after hit into j.A, i think same goes for j.2A and j.B have 20+ untech.

still don't know if you can cancel on whiff like other A/B attacks, if it works it can be useful for punishing backdashes and some attacks like noels D spam.

and on block j.B is much safer(now you can only frametrap hotaru or try j.D if used j.B too high) with this and have better mixup possiblity(j.B>j.A/2B, height correction for double jump j.B, but it'll be char specific i think).

looks pretty good, waiting for csex to try new haku.

[mAc Chaos]

Neat, I didn't realize it's now head att invincible. I thought it still just low profiled stuff.

If you're talking about super flash buffering then that's true, but I'd rather spend a star, make their reversal whiff, and get a 5C counterhit starter than settle for the ~2K damage I'd get from a massively prorated 6D combo.

Using Kishuu during blockstrings to bait reversals depends on if it has punishable (non attribute invincible) recovery. If it doesn't, it would definitely be much safer then using Zanshin and possibly eating a counter hit. Plus, if their move you Kishuu'd through was slow enough you should be able to punish with your own combo (it would be fairly easy to punish a mashed dp in a blockstring--this is exactly what the Haku did in the video), and if they keep blocking it gets you back in.

But I didn't mean to incite a debate, I just commented that I thought it sounded like a nice buff. If anyone think counters are better for the situations I explained, then use them. I will be using Kishuu as I described.

There's nothing wrong with having a debate. It's better to hash out all of the best options.

It's hard to imagine making Mu's DP whiff... since she doesn't move during it and you'd be dashing directly into it. But for Ragna and Makoto's it should work, although with how far Makoto's carries her, and with Kishuu moving Haku past her, she might actually be too far away to punish.

[dioxideUniversa]

Assuming the frame data didn't change much with Mu's DP and Kishuu, it should still work since her DP is 9 frames active and Haku's Kishuu (I believe?) has 12 frames of property invuln. Her DP is 10 frames start up though, so you would have to do it on frame 2 or onwards to not get caught by the 9 frames. (17 total frames for kishuu vs. 19 total frames before recovery for her DP.)

I don't know if her DP got changed besides being usable in the air, though. I couldn't find info on it on the forums at a glance.

Edited November 22, 2011 by dioxideUniversa

[SansProtocol]

It's -27 on block, so just block and punish with 5C. If she did it in the air, that's even better. It's just safe to not do anything risky when you don't need to.