[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[BlackYakuzu94]

Well its not like Tsubaki is slow, not many people react to it.

[itsme]

I forgot where I saw the Zantetsu one but this was another corner combo I thought was neat recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZeIVrk6GWc#t=6m6s

[psycofang2]

Well its not like Tsubaki is slow, not many people react to it.

but thats not what we're...

ok...i give up.

im done.

this is pointless.

[BlackYakuzu94]

No psycho don't go.

[psycofang2]

No psycho don't go.

You did this to me.

[itsme]

How can it not make it as obvious, when the other ones don't have to use meter for mixup.

If he has 0-2 stars, right off the bat they don't need to worry about Tsubaki. Block low and watch for 6B/throw, etc.

It's still easy to mix people up though since there are many factors besides that at play.

Exactly like you put it. Of course if Haku has 0 - 2 stars he has less of a freedom for his mix up options but then the mix ups are there so unless if you're always opting for pressure or if you're always going for some sort of weird mix up, you're not really obvious unless you're playing that way yourself. Hakumen's mix ups aren't his strongest point like all of us know but I don't think the opponent knowing how much mags we have makes our mix up option any less obvious than the other characters where there mix up options aren't dictated by their meter.

mixup is mixup no matter what. but when something gives away your current options people get more confident.

where is the meter was invisible only to hakumen, i garuntee they wll panic more often because they dont know what hes currently capable of.

I think the major issue with making our mags invisible would be that it would be mechanically impossible for it to make it so only the player would know how much mags they have without the opponent knowing it as well.

[psycofang2]

I think the major issue with making our mags invisible would be that it would be mechanically impossible for it to make it so only the player would know how much mags they have without the opponent knowing it as well.

i know that, it was a what if statement.

im not wishing for it to be true but its an interesting thought.

[itsme]

A what if I had before when ODs were introduced was that what if Hakumen went invisible for couple of frames whenever he entered his aerial state during OD? So that every time you jumped or whenever you enter aerial state during your step, Hakumen would become invisible (just invisibility and no invincibility). This would make it so that the opponent won't know if Hakumen is jumping towards, over or away from them whenever we jump. And say it would make him go invisible for the first 11 frames he enters the air. If this was implemented with his step (16 frames, 5~11 in the air so the last 11 frames of his step will have Hakumen become invisible), the opponent won't know if a Tsubaki is going to come out until the last 9 frames before the overhead comes out or if a Renka will come out right at it's 9 frames too.

At first I thought this would make his step mix ups really scary if you had the mags but after thinking about it more, I felt like Hakumen going invisible might just cue the opponent to chicken block so it might not work out as scary as I hope it would be if it was a thing.

[BladeOfJustice7]

While his execution is obviously easier since he uses more specials in his combos compared to before, because you his increased meter gain, the need to avoid Same Attack Repeat. I feel his combo routes aren't so straight forward which is something I like, A LOT. Since you always knew what combos to go for depending on your screen positioning and stars.

Close to the corner? j2a loop

Midscreen? Bnb corner carry combo/enma combo

Grab? Staple grab bnb combo

Counters? Strict counter combos

Counters in the corner? Corner counter combos

Kinda boring and linear for my liking.

[mAc Chaos]

A what if I had before when ODs were introduced was that what if Hakumen went invisible for couple of frames whenever he entered his aerial state during OD? So that every time you jumped or whenever you enter aerial state during your step, Hakumen would become invisible (just invisibility and no invincibility). This would make it so that the opponent won't know if Hakumen is jumping towards, over or away from them whenever we jump. And say it would make him go invisible for the first 11 frames he enters the air. If this was implemented with his step (16 frames, 5~11 in the air so the last 11 frames of his step will have Hakumen become invisible), the opponent won't know if a Tsubaki is going to come out until the last 9 frames before the overhead comes out or if a Renka will come out right at it's 9 frames too.

At first I thought this would make his step mix ups really scary if you had the mags but after thinking about it more, I felt like Hakumen going invisible might just cue the opponent to chicken block so it might not work out as scary as I hope it would be if it was a thing.

That sounds more like an Arakune thing. hakukune pls no

The combos will become more obvious when you get to play and figure out what works in what situations. It's only obvious to us now because we had 4 games to hammer out all the scenarios.

[psycofang2]

A what if I had before when ODs were introduced was that what if Hakumen went invisible for couple of frames whenever he entered his aerial state during OD?.

that would actually be cool but then i feel like it would work against us.

somewhat.

Also why do we WANT his execution barrier to be high?

wouldnt that stop all but the hardiest players from learning hak-...oh...

but no i think his execution barrier in CP is fine. just enough to get our jollies and just enough to say he isnt braindead.

Now variable combos? thats a whole other ball park because from what it looks like, Zantetsu is the go to special mid combo or dont and triple j2A loop.

Edited April 22, 2013 by psycofang2

[BladeOfJustice7]

I'm not complaining about his execution level, I don't want a main who has the execution level of Valkenhayn lol. I just want combo variation and varied combo routes depending on your positioning on the screen.

Hakumen shouldn't be a character who has high execution since he can't outright destroy other players the same way Valkenhayn or Eddie can in their respective games. Easier combos, easier to use than they are, but at the same time not easy use effectively nor straightforward strategies to win either.

[itsme]

From experience and imo, Valk's combos and combo parts are pretty easy execution wise (aside from select jC > 2B/5B pick up combos but that's not really stuff you need to do), maybe making the right combo decision is hard for him since he has a lot more variation of what he can do depending on how everything is set up.

Putting that aside, I think Hakumen had a good deal of variation in CSE if you consider his side switching combos without just going CORNER TO CORNER with the usual Renka confirm. Ending combos in between for a pressure/reset made his offense pretty interesting too though not as consistent like Valkenhayn or Bang.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Alternating between human and wolf form during combos is pretty difficult , at least for me, strictly human combos like 236d in the corner is fairly easy but his full length combos as you alternate between the two was kinda difficult for me.

Not enough variation that I don't have to do sj.2a. I'm not saying there isn't any variation, just not enough for me right now is all. And it doesn't mean I don't love this series to death but I'm looking forward to that Kishin/OD lab work is all, like how you have so much variation in GG thanks to frc's.

(Waiting to get blasted by someone for putting "GG" "frc's" "BB" and "OD" all in the same sentence)

[dioxideUniversa]

wouldnt that stop all but the hardiest players from learning hak-...oh...

i actually do not feel like hakumen's playerbase has changed a whole lot over the versions

i definitely expected more people to play him in CSE due to his Cool Tierness, but i think his overall gameplay feels too different compared to the rest of the cast for him to ever be super popular

Now variable combos? thats a whole other ball park because from what it looks like, Zantetsu is the go to special mid combo or dont and triple j2A loop.

a damaing combo midscreen pretty much has zantetsu in it

and as many j.2a/j.2c/5a juggles as possible (even parries have this)

or OD, which lets you do dumb 22 star combos that do too much damage

in any case it's not that much different from CSE, where you do a lot of the same optimal combos and you can make it work off most starters (renka (1) > kishuu) and there isn't a lot of variation based off what your starters were. it remains to be seen whether the new combos will require more execution, but without any hands on it's difficult to say. it's possible but it doesn't look tremendously more difficult, and beside the point great damage is easy to achieve with little effort, as opposed to CS2 where you had to spend a lot of meter to get that damage/corner carry and then it was a difficult combo to do (basically higher reward for better execution compared to what the average player had access to)

mostly what i was trying to state that as a mid-level player, CS2 felt more fun cause there were more things to strive for and not "i can already do the best combos because they are easy" (is it a surprise that i'm this combo oriented)

but then most people are like "MY CHARACTER HAS THE MOST MUSCLES AND I GET TO BEAT EVERYONE" about their character so whatever

EDIT: also a point i keep forgetting is that in CSE you basically get to do corner combos everywhere on the screen as hakumen. do his midscreen combo in the corner and tell me how terribly different it feels from a corner combo (not terribly), especially in terms of stars -> damage

obviously being in the corner is better in all aspects but compared to other characters' capabilities, his midscreen combos are sort of dumb

Edited April 22, 2013 by dioxideUniversa

[BlackYakuzu94]

Its probably because CSE is my first iteration of the game, but I think Hakumen's combo execution is hard enough in that game. Its not amazingly difficult, but I still find trouble landing the most basic of combos from time to time. I do agree, his midscreen damage is kinda stupid.

[Sophisticat]

Once you get it, I think CSEX Haks' execution is the easiest of any iteration. CS2 being the hardest, of course.

[psycofang2]

i actually do not feel like hakumen's playerbase has changed a whole lot over the versions

i definitely expected more people to play him in CSE due to his Cool Tierness, but i think his overall gameplay feels too different compared to the rest of the cast for him to ever be super popular

Im not sure i agree, i see what you are saying but at the same time in this iteration hes definitely much easier to pick up than ever now.

a damaing combo midscreen pretty much has zantetsu in it

and as many j.2a/j.2c/5a juggles as possible (even parries have this)

or OD, which lets you do dumb 22 star combos that do too much damage

He deserved it

in any case it's not that much different from CSE, where you do a lot of the same optimal combos and you can make it work off most starters (renka (1) > kishuu) and there isn't a lot of variation based off what your starters were. it remains to be seen whether the new combos will require more execution, but without any hands on it's difficult to say. it's possible but it doesn't look tremendously more difficult, and beside the point great damage is easy to achieve with little effort, as opposed to CS2 where you had to spend a lot of meter to get that damage/corner carry and then it was a difficult combo to do (basically higher reward for better execution compared to what the average player had access to)

mostly what i was trying to state that as a mid-level player, CS2 felt more fun cause there were more things to strive for and not "i can already do the best combos because they are easy" (is it a surprise that i'm this combo oriented)

Even now i really dont agree , for me in cs2 there wasnt much to strive for except the most non star dependant optimal combo because alot of the higher damaging things were easy after 2 hours of practice, the execution requirement became a moot point. Now i WILL agree his JB>JA combos were tight so you had to substitue it for jA>jA if you werent confident

but then most people are like "MY CHARACTER HAS THE MOST MUSCLES AND I GET TO BEAT EVERYONE" about their character so whatever

Quite the opposite, most people claim their character takes the most skill and downplay their tools

EDIT: also a point i keep forgetting is that in CSE you basically get to do corner combos everywhere on the screen as hakumen. do his midscreen combo in the corner and tell me how terribly different it feels from a corner combo (not terribly), especially in terms of stars -> damage

still not understanding the corner combos since you cant tsubaki>6C>5k mid screen or renka>6C>5/6k mid screen. CP yeah you can but CSE?

obviously being in the corner is better in all aspects but compared to other characters' capabilities, his midscreen combos are sort of dumb

CSE is pretty ok he can get 3k mid screen off the right starter, most of the time you wont be landing the right starter, youll mostly be landing 2A/B so it kills the damage, but the corner carry is amazing. CSE corner he can potentially get 7k IF he lands the right starter (tsubaki) with 8 stars stocked

something about 2 carrots and stuff

[dioxideUniversa]

Im not sure i agree, i see what you are saying but at the same time in this iteration hes definitely much easier to pick up than ever now.

this isn't exactly the most trafficked forum. CSE hakumen was the strongest version to date and the easiest to access, but we still don't get a terribly high amount of new posters and many scenes do not even have hakumen mains. a slight increase in representation is believable but it isn't what you might have expected from a high-tier character

He deserved it

this isn't even a justifiable reason for anything, much less than he has been pretty strong in 3/5 versions now

and even then being a strong character doesn't justify the obscene damage of his OD combos, which is excessively high even by hakumen damage standards given how easy they are to access (people always used to say mugen would be super broken if it was easy to access, and OD is better than mugen)

some weird notion of karmic reward system isn't balance

Even now i really dont agree , for me in cs2 there wasnt much to strive for except the most non star dependant optimal combo because alot of the higher damaging things were easy after 2 hours of practice, the execution requirement became a moot point. Now i WILL agree his JB>JA combos were tight so you had to substitue it for jA>jA if you werent confident

the optimal low-star combos were not that difficult, but the combos i was referring to got pretty elaborate and had strict timing/spacing (such as the j.B j.A combos for one example)

furthermore this is strictly speaking about CS2 combo dynamics, ignoring the fact that the high execution high meter combos were not practical not only due to their difficulty but due to the fact that CS2 had poor meter generation, which of course needed addressed regardless. so saying his combos were easy after the first 2 hours when we're clearly talking about the staples of midscsreen and corner and disregarding the advanced combos i was talking about is the moot point

Quite the opposite, most people claim their character takes the most skill and downplay their tools

not from my experience--and really that's a more common trend for people who are playing the strong characters (such as hakumen.)

still not understanding the corner combos since you cant tsubaki>6C>5k mid screen or renka>6C>5/6k mid screen. CP yeah you can but CSE?

doing your weakest starters into a renka (1) kishuu combo will almost always get you close to 3k, much less the stronger ones that turn much higher damage. renka (1) starter turns into close to 5k midscreen for only three stars and refunds a good amount of meter, which certainly is much more like his corner combos than it is his previous midscreen options

in CP the damage is more polarized where without a good starter you don't do that much damage, but really you don't lose that much meter on it either. high end midscreen damage combos occur in the corner not infrequently, which isn't something that has happened in previous versions. also long, high-damage fatal counter loops off parries that pretty much are the normal midscreen combo paths without much variation

CSE is pretty ok he can get 3k mid screen off the right starter, most of the time you wont be landing the right starter, youll mostly be landing 2A/B so it kills the damage, but the corner carry is amazing. CSE corner he can potentially get 7k IF he lands the right starter (tsubaki) with 8 stars stocked

you can get 7k in the corner with the 5 star renka hotaru combos while refunding 3 stars.

[psycofang2]

this isn't exactly the most trafficked forum. CSE hakumen was the strongest version to date and the easiest to access, but we still don't get a terribly high amount of new posters and many scenes do not even have hakumen mains. a slight increase in representation is believable but it isn't what you might have expected from a high-tier character

In the forums no, outside of it online during the game theres been a decent increase. theres quite a good few hakumen who dont/didnt know this site even exists and even then the ones that do dont post so i wouldnt go too much off forum traffic. considering theres only been a few of us that ever posted in here anyway since ct

this isn't even a justifiable reason for anything, much less than he has been pretty strong in 3/5 versions now

and even then being a strong character doesn't justify the obscene damage of his OD combos, which is excessively high even by hakumen damage standards given how easy they are to access (people always used to say mugen would be super broken if it was easy to access, and OD is better than mugen)

some weird notion of karmic reward system isn't balance

It was a joke man. seriously.

the optimal low-star combos were not that difficult, but the combos i was referring to got pretty elaborate and had strict timing/spacing (such as the j.B j.A combos for one example)

furthermore this is strictly speaking about CS2 combo dynamics, ignoring the fact that the high execution high meter combos were not practical not only due to their difficulty but due to the fact that CS2 had poor meter generation, which of course needed addressed regardless. so saying his combos were easy after the first 2 hours when we're clearly talking about the staples of midscsreen and corner and disregarding the advanced combos i was talking about is the moot point

You missed what i was talking about, the 2 hours in training mode were FOR those high cost, damaging combos. they wer eonly difficult and strict because you never did them before, the timing is weird and akward and some characters required you changed it slightly to get the combo to even work, it was hard true BUT its only hard for so long.

there is no such thing as a hard combo that just exists to be hard, its only hard because at that point in time you lacked the practice or understanding of how the combo works, after you get that down theres nothing hard or execution demanding of the combo anymore its just a combo now.

the real treat is the opposite FOR ME, to find the highest damaging combos for the lowest star use possible which is why i posted the JB>JA or JA>JA combos because they were very rewarding for how little they costed.

not from my experience--and really that's a more common trend for people who are playing the strong characters (such as hakumen.)

Opposite spectrums give different results and view points

doing your weakest starters into a renka (1) kishuu combo will almost always get you close to 3k, much less the stronger ones that turn much higher damage. renka (1) starter turns into close to 5k midscreen for only three stars and refunds a good amount of meter, which certainly is much more like his corner combos than it is his previous midscreen options

i was refeering to 2A>renka(2) combos that have great corner carry for little cost. not renka(1) everyone does that, no point even mentioning it

in CP the damage is more polarized where without a good starter you don't do that much damage, but really you don't lose that much meter on it either. high end midscreen damage combos occur in the corner not infrequently, which isn't something that has happened in previous versions. also long, high-damage fatal counter loops off parries that pretty much are the normal midscreen combo paths without much variation

Wait what are you saying? I never argued this point. Its pretty obvious his damage is insane theres no denying that, he also doesnt suffer from low meter gain so theres nothing to be argued.

you can get 7k in the corner with the 5 star renka hotaru combos while refunding 3 stars.

im aware of that and with a decent starter he can break 8k. i was talking about tsubaki starter in the corner for 7k.

the number 2

[InWithTheAshes]

Psyco, your sig may actually contain some amount of threat within it if you spelt "deny" correctly.

Edited April 22, 2013 by InWithTheAshes

[psycofang2]

Psycho, your sig may actually contain some amount of threat within it if you spelt "deny" correctly.

i was wondering when someone would catch that.

i was gona change it then i was just "nah lets see if someone says anyone says anything"

gameover time to fix it.

jerk

[InWithTheAshes]

Thaaat's better.

Now go forth, and use your newly acquired linguistic skills to march upon those who refuse Hakumen and

start more arguments as towards whether he's dumb or not.

Also, within an act of irony, I actually spelt your name wrong within that sentence. Or right, seeing as that's actually how you spell "psycho"

change that too plz.

Edited April 22, 2013 by InWithTheAshes

[psycofang2]

Thaaat's better.

Now go forth, and use your newly acquired linguistic skills to march upon those who refuse Hakumen and

start more arguments as towards whether he's dumb or not.

Hes not dumb, hes just super sayan 4.

[dioxideUniversa]

In the forums no, outside of it online during the game theres been a decent increase. theres quite a good few hakumen who dont/didnt know this site even exists and even then the ones that do dont post so i wouldnt go too much off forum traffic. considering theres only been a few of us that ever posted in here anyway since ct

i was not paying too much scrutiny to netplay because netplay

primarily my basis for saying that was the amount of Hakumen players in CSE in jp vids did not increase much (many of the CS2 ones disappeared from videos until CP,) hakumen players do not show up at a lot of majors, and many scenes i am familiar with do not have one (i am the only hakumen main in our scene)

either way even though there's no data or anything, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that not a huge % of BB's playerbase is hakumen players compared to other character representation (especially rushdown/good mixup characters)

jp forums may have some actual information on representation but i do not know how to find these things

It was a joke man. seriously.

a lot of hakumen players will justify his CP status, so it wasn't terribly amusing (and i think it is important to acknowledge when something is imbalanced rather than play favorites, which i have seen a lot of in response to the large amount of CP hakumen complaints, a lot of which are legitimate even if a little whiny. mainly this was my point in posting all this as it's aggravating)

also do not "man" me

You missed what i was talking about, the 2 hours in training mode were FOR those high cost, damaging combos. they wer eonly difficult and strict because you never did them before, the timing is weird and akward and some characters required you changed it slightly to get the combo to even work, it was hard true BUT its only hard for so long.

there is no such thing as a hard combo that just exists to be hard, its only hard because at that point in time you lacked the practice or understanding of how the combo works, after you get that down theres nothing hard or execution demanding of the combo anymore its just a combo now.

the real treat is the opposite FOR ME, to find the highest damaging combos for the lowest star use possible which is why i posted the JB>JA or JA>JA combos because they were very rewarding for how little they costed.

a combo does not just stop being difficult just because you can perform it in a controlled environment. if it was as easy as you make it out to be, all the advanced combos would have been staples of JP hakumen gameplay back in CS2, which they definitely were not. they appeared occasionally by some of the better hakumen players, and even then dropping them was a thing that happened not infrequently

and the 3c combos were extremely rewarding for that reason, but they weren't the only ones that were high damaging and meter efficient (though nothing beats 3k+ for 1 star really, other than meterless options of course.) a lot of hakumen's midscreen bnbs such as double gurren combos were definitely not the most star efficient whereas most of the advanced midscreen carry combos were pretty good about returning close to 1k damage per star

regardless, obviously my statement about CS2 is an opinion since obviously someone who did not enjoy struggling through CS2 matchups would most likely disagree with "cs2 was the most fun" statement

i was refeering to 2A>renka(2) combos that have great corner carry for little cost. not renka(1) everyone does that, no point even mentioning it

except they're kind of the point i was making to begin with? you said he can get 3k off the right starter (nothing about how much meter) but he can get 3k off pretty much any starter with 3 stars, not sure what was confusing about that response

i rather don't see what 2 star combos have to do with it, it's not like 3 star combos midscreen are a rare ocurrance. the 3 star combos are the staples and (renka2) is a 2 star option--and i actually do not know if renka (2) has more corner carry or damage than enma > j.2a > AD j.B > j.A etc., which is one i have been using lately

furthermore it's beside my original point that the midscreen relaunch combos of CSE and CP that prorate very well have potential that isn't significantly less than his corner combos. of course he can't do tsubaki 6C or renka 6C, but it's still pretty excellent for midscreen standards

Wait what are you saying? I never argued this point. Its pretty obvious his damage is insane theres no denying that, he also doesnt suffer from low meter gain so theres nothing to be argued.

you mentioned CP and overall i had a hard time following what exactly you meant with that response as a whole

regardless see above for a more clear explanation of what i meant

im aware of that and with a decent starter he can break 8k. i was talking about tsubaki starter in the corner for 7k.

it read as "with the right starter he can break 7k" then listed tsubaki which looked like said right starter, so that's how i interpretted it (ie as a general statement about his corner damage)

more than likely you can get 7k in under 8 stars with tsubaki, it's not like it prorates like zantetsu does in CSE

Edited April 22, 2013 by dioxideUniversa