[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[onemic]

How do you properly use

5B

5C

6A

6C

In neutral and during pressure? There are so many times in my matches where I'm not in range for 2B and either just in or slightly out of range for 5C and I don't really know what to do, causing me to be really stiff and open to pressured.

[BlackYakuzu94]

How do you properly use

5B

5C

6A

6C

In neutral and during pressure? There are so many times in my matches where I'm not in range for 2B and either just in or slightly out of range for 5C and I don't really know what to do, causing me to be really stiff and open to pressured.

Your spacing tools are: 5B, 2B, 4C, 3C and J.C, use these to make your opponent's approach far more difficult. Agito is also a good tool for air approach and stuffs most Anti-airs.

In terms of pressure, you got 5A, 2A, 2B, Gurren, Renka, 5B.

If you want more info on them, refer to his frame data page or this lovely write up by Spark:

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?18022-CP-Hakumen-General-Info

It also depends on who you're fighting against

Edited November 3, 2013 by BlackYakuzu94

[onemic]

Your spacing tools are: 5B, 2B, 4C, 3C and J.C, use these to make your opponent's approach far more difficult. Agito is also a good tool for air approach and stuffs most Anti-airs.

In terms of pressure, you got 5A, 2A, 2B, Gurren, Renka, 5B.

If you want more info on them, refer to his frame data page or this lovely write up by Spark:

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?18022-CP-Hakumen-General-Info

It also depends on who you're fighting against

5C isn't good for spacing? What normal would you then use when just out of 2B range? A hakumen player was catching me with 5C during pressure(using it after a jump in) and as an anti air during neutral, which led to a huge combo on me.

And when would be the best time to use 5B? This normal as well as 5C probably elude me the most due to this fact that not only is its range a lot shorter than 2B, but its slower on startup too and whiffs on Crouchers if you're not close to point blank range. This causes me to not really try using it much if at all.

Also how do you approach movement with hakumen? I'm not sure if I should just walk forward, utilize his hop(which I never use) or jump/air dash(which I tend to do almost exclusively) when watching match vids of Jpn hakumen players I see them jump/super jump/ air dash a lot, but I'm not sure if that's because of the particular matchup or if its standard.

Edited November 3, 2013 by onemic

[Kriegdrache]

Yeah, I just tried to get the relaunch combo down for about an hour and had very little luck. I think I'm doing it way to slow, as he'll tech before I can even hit J.2C. I'm pressing jump towards after the J2A but yeah.

It's kind of frustrating really.

[mAc Chaos]

Try this:

And 5C is not bad for spacing but that one is more for when you expect them to do something. It is harder to do on reaction.

5B has deceptively good range, so it is good for neutral.

[Kriegdrache]

I think I was practicing the first 6B one in the combo thread, but I'll try that tomorrow I guess.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Yeah, I just tried to get the relaunch combo down for about an hour and had very little luck. I think I'm doing it way to slow, as he'll tech before I can even hit J.2C. I'm pressing jump towards after the J2A but yeah.

It's kind of frustrating really.

Which points exactly in the loops that give you a hard time, so I can maybe help since I already have a good grasp of it now.

@dioxide, or someone who can record Hakumen combos, could you come out with a slow motion breakdown of landing the loops in his combos. I prefer her, since she has the best execution here next to Spark, and she can record. But if anyone else can please go ahead and do so, message me if you need any help making it.

Thanks.

[Kriegdrache]

Which points exactly in the loops that give you a hard time, so I can maybe help since I already have a good grasp of it now.

@dioxide, or someone who can record Hakumen combos, could you come out with a slow motion breakdown of landing the loops in his combos. I prefer her, since she has the best execution here next to Spark, and she can record. But if anyone else can please go ahead and do so, message me if you need any help making it.

Thanks.

Mainly the J2A > J2C > 5A part. I honestly just think I'm not doing it fast enough, or I'm doing it too high.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I'm under the assumption that 5a always whiffs correct?

[dioxideUniversa]

it's far more likely to be a timing issue than a spacing one. not getting your jumps out fast enough can also increase difficulty, especially the j.2a cancel. this goes hand-in-hand with spacing, really, since you can do your jump cancel late, j.2c when you're supposed to, but then drop it because you don't land soon enough.

i'll see about making a slo-mo video tomorrow

Edited November 4, 2013 by dioxideUniversa

[Kanashimi]

So how are the changes fairing then?

[Kriegdrache]

I'm under the assumption that 5a always whiffs correct?

Not 100% of the time, but it's more often than not. To be honest, I think Dioxide may have hit the nail on the head though, it might just be my timing being off. I would appreciate the slo-mo video, that's super rad.

[Koopa_Klawz]

Speaking of his loop, I'm having a hard time doing it on Azrael. He's got one of those hitboxes where I need him to be lower than most other characters. Otherwise, 5A keeps whiffing on him. Not sure who else I have this problem with.

[mAc Chaos]

The timing for the loop seems slightly different for various characters.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Does the starter count too?

[entnervt]

That's what I wanted to ask to. It seems so to me.

[dioxideUniversa]

order taken: slo-mo video, test on azrael, use some shitty starters

[BladeOfJustice7]

Do one for someone like Azrael/Relius/Ragna and small hitboxes like Carl/Noel and funky hit boxes like Rachel/Arakune. One for each, you don't have to do all, if you nee any help, feel free to message me.

Thanks again.

[dioxideUniversa]

i'm rendering the azrael video now. it would take me some time that i do not have today to do one for many characters. i'll pm you about it sometime

So how are the changes fairing then?

gameplay changes? combo changes? for most posters here, both are sort of too early to say. based on prior knowledge, it's obvious that hakumen is a lot stronger, but there's mixed information about whether or not he is easier to use or not. generally, he can get pretty punishing damage for really basic combos like in CT (get a good starter, dump all your stars for a very low execution combo for very large damage.)

his combos generally became more strict and he has less universal combo routes from starters like he did in CSE.

i haven't played a lot of matches (nor do i really intend to,) so someone else will have to comment on generalized matchups info / defense vs. offense etc. as they've never been my strong suit.

regardless, most people are still settling in with their characters' changes at this point, so time is needed for more definitive information.

Edited November 4, 2013 by dioxideUniversa

[Soviet Bear]

Has anyone tried playing around with Mugen + OD? I haven't really used Mugen much at all before, so interested in more experienced players' thoughts. It essentially freezes your Magatama bar until OD and then your Magatama deplete, or until you do a Distortion.

[dioxideUniversa]

mugen combos are a bit different this time around due to SMP being on all specials except agito. that said, you have to use agito to do long mugen combos now, and mugen changes how some specials like agito and tsubaki behave. i haven't labbed it out yet but there was a jp combo video showing mugen combos at some point

anyway, the video people requested:

in general, it was hard for me to determine what it was that made the combo harder on azrael since i have labbed the BnB quite a bit and didn't have many issues. however, I did notice it is slightly more strict when using the 2c launcher at the start. this would be rectified by using a starter like 5B instead, which generally I recommend for live play anyway, as 5B launcher combos are far harder to drop than 2C ones.

this scenario along with pretty much any other situation where the timing is different due to bad starters: in general, delay everything in the combo as much as possible (the beginning j.2c, the 2c or whatever launcher you use, and following j.2cs. do not delay jump cancels, j.2As, or 5As.) the only specific information you need with regards to highly prorated alterations is the followup j.2Cs in the combo sometimes need to come out sooner than in lower proration combos.

with bad / highly prorated starters, generally I was hard pressed to find any where the loop is plausible, so I'm not sure exactly what was specifically desired for that note. generally a decent starter is required for the full loop. For some less ideal starters, it is possible to take one loop off the combo, but in the case of some of the worst starters (especially the epitomous example of 2a) it isn't really even worth it to attempt this combo path at all, hence why you see a lot of 2a > 2a > 2a > 3c in jp videos.

specific notes:

:37 don't try to end this combo path with j.2c tsubaki. tsubaki after the j.2a or a j.C if you are close to the corner

2:57 displays how strict 2a is as a starter, if it's even possible at all. it doesn't come recommended for live play for these low-star combos. enma would require 2a CH, but is probably even harder than renka due to the fact that you can't OTG 2C them like renka

3:16 this was really the only example i could come up with of a "bad starter" that is plausible in live play. it isn't possible to do the 3rd loop with this sort of proration.

azrael's shoes make it look like he has hooves. it felt like i was labbing on a cow all afternoon. we have an ethics problem in this subforum

Edited November 4, 2013 by dioxideUniversa

[BladeOfJustice7]

So how are the changes fairing then?

Most people here agreed with my write up below. So for those who own the game this is more or less how we all feel so far.

Thoughts on Hakumen (since psychofang asked, and I don't post much):

Overall: While I do agree that Hakumen is in the top 5 contenders of CP, and I think Terumi will be up there as well, it's his OD that brings him up there. SO long as the opponent prevents you from from accessing in big damage attributed to OD, he is lacking on several fronts. Many people would argue against this because "it's so easy to get into TOD-OD combos". But it really isn't, if one were to look at matches in CP with Hakumen it's rare to see him dish out 6+k combos. This is because players have adjusted and adapted their play styles to prevent themselves from getting caught by fraudulent Hakumen tactics.

All comparisons are with CSEX Hakumen.

On neutral: I would he is the same or maybe even slightly better due to the buffs on jc (increased blowaway affect and does 1k now), along with Agito for people who are anxious run under you. The reason I say it might be the same is because in certain scenarios he can't confirm certain hits into combos. And I am not just saying that because I played him for 3 days, this comes from me watching matches. While I can't list the scenarios, because I'm writing this at the top of my head. His inability to get good damage off his AA coupled with it being slow makes him less of a defensive threat on neutral, along with basically the removal of 6d. He has has received a HUGE buff in the form of his meter gain, making it easier to dish out stars on neutral or offense. Overall on neutral, he's only truly a threat to a skilled player when he has access to his OD, otherwise his neutral game is above average if not average.

On Offense: This is where I believe most of his tools come into play. Agito, along with being a good neutral game tool. Is also a basically get in for free tool, so long as it is spaced correctly, your opponent will not being able to AA reliably. While he lost some amazing gatlings like 2b>2b, this is supplemented with the ability to combo of a 6b CH. Which is a much needed buff in my opinion considering his design purpose, it makes mashing against him as even scarier then he used to be. Renka>Kishuu no longer nets as much damage as it used to, you get about 1k less in damage then you used to. Instead hakumen pretty much only damaging starter in combos is Zantetsu, his slowest starting attack. While it's great that it is an overhead and now has a vacuum effect on the second hit, it is very obvious and the opponent can reactively burst before it even touches them making. Renka>Kishuu was not only a very damaging starter but also very burst safe. B+C now causes staggering a big meter buff for Hakumen as well, since it opens a lot of combo options for him. The loss of not being able to combo off Tsubaki but receiving 800 extra damage is an overall nerf in my opinion, since that move was one of his best combo starters. Instead 66>j214c can only be used in conjunction with j214b then into OD. Now Tsubaki is a stand alone overhead. 6c has received important improvements from prorating well with Shippu (which now has different charge levels), to causing FC on CH or when fully charged opens up a lot of damaging combos for hakumen leading to 6k+ with 5 or more stars. HIs CT also has huge range compared to the rest fo teh cast making it great for brekaing the opponent's gaurd or for that extra damage at the beginning of a combo.

On Defense: Hakumen was hurt the most in this respect, while he was designed to be the defensive character of the game. They have tried to redesign him to be more offensive. His counters took a huge blow among everything else in his repertoire in CP. 6d is no longer a 1frame active move, which hurt both his defensive options, thereby making him much more susceptible to overheads and constant pressure strings. This in my opinion is a huge nerf to Hakumen since now he essentially has a completely useless drive normal which takes at least 5 frames to start up. Hakumen already has a fairly large hitbox and a relatively slow AA making him more susceptible to air approaches, almost as much as his CS2 incarnation. 5d however, has received the ability to be optionally held down for additional active frames making it much more ambiguous to punish. 2d remains roughly the same and jd though has recieved a minimal height requirement, it can be comboed off of which is amazing. He has also received a buff to yukikaze, which you could say is to make up for the loss of his 6d. Though he did receive the ability to parry off his counters if you will, by pressing "A" after the opponent hitting Zanshin which can lead to impressive damage only in OD, the nerf to their hitboxes and the ability to block them makes him significantly less of a threat compared to his CSEX version.

I'm sure there's things I skipped but this is what I see so far with CP Hakumen. A decent character who benefits the most from the games new systems which, pushes him over the limits into being one of the best characters in the game so long as he can open you up for an OD combo at any point in the match to wreck your health bar.

I'm curious to see what you guys have to say. Also great job mAc on making the matchup threads and the awesome subtitles they all have like "Grumpy Old Men" lol.

i'm rendering the azrael video now. it would take me some time that i do not have today to do one for many characters. i'll pm you about it sometime

Thanks.

i haven't played a lot of matches (nor do i really intend to,)

Too busy? How come?

Has anyone tried playing around with Mugen + OD? I haven't really used Mugen much at all before, so interested in more experienced players' thoughts. It essentially freezes your Magatama bar until OD and then your Magatama deplete, or until you do a Distortion.

It freezes it until Mugen runs out not OD. And I only used it once, it's not really that great. I only used it for shits and giggles once. You're better off just doing OD Cancels in the middle of your combos or pressure than to go into Mugen>OD, so you're rushed now to force a advantageous situation from a neutral game, which Hkaumen isn't very good at doing.

[- Stasis -]

The only thing you have to worry about when doing the loop is the height of your opponent and delaying j.2C as much as possible.

hit j.2C too high or too early = drop

opponent too low = pick them back up with 5A > 5B

that's it. I hit the loop consistent on all characters. I know for a fact that the timing is the same because I haven't even practice the loop on all character and yet I hit it in matches without any problems.

[dioxideUniversa]

The only thing you have to worry about when doing the loop is the height of your opponent and delaying j.2C as much as possible.

hit j.2C too high or too early = drop

opponent too low = pick them back up with 5A > 5B

that's it. I hit the loop consistent on all characters. I know for a fact that the timing is the same because I haven't even practice the loop on all character and yet I hit it in matches without any problems.

the timing is not the same on more highly prorated instances of the combo. hitting the j.2c at the same time as is perfect for other starters in terms of delay will not come out fast enough, hence why i made a note of it. furthermore, it is possible for specific characters to have different requirements (ie they are smaller and thus more lax timings that would work on larger characters would whiff on them,) which would not be evident if you often delay the combo perfectly anyway, again hence why i made a note of it

it's also worth noting that if on pickup they are ever floating too high, just a 5a launcher has the least float (compared to 5b, 2c etc.)

not sure why it was necesssry to post about it in less detail than was established, especially since we are specifically talking more intro-level information and not users who have already mastered it.

Edited November 5, 2013 by dioxideUniversa

[onemic]

What normal would you use when just out of 2B range? Would it be 5C? I find that it's this range that gives me a lot of truble becuase I never know what normal to use.

And when would be the best time to use 5B? This normal as well as 5C probably elude me the most due to this fact that not only is its range a lot shorter than 2B, but its slower on startup too and whiffs on Crouchers if you're not close to point blank range. This causes me to not really try using it much if at all.

Also how do you approach movement with hakumen? I'm not sure if I should just walk forward, utilize his hop(which I never use) or jump/air dash(which I tend to do almost exclusively) when watching match vids of Jpn hakumen players I see them jump/super jump/ air dash a lot, but I'm not sure if that's because of the particular matchup or if its standard.

Lastly what do you do against characters that constantly jump directly above you? I find that I have no option to stop this advance and it's pretty much a 'get in for free or I eat a counter' type situation.