BladeOfJustice7 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Thoughts on Hakumen (since psychofang asked, and I don't post much): Overall: While I do agree that Hakumen is in the top 5 contenders of CP, and I think Terumi will be up there as well, it's his OD that brings him up there. SO long as the opponent prevents you from from accessing in big damage attributed to OD, he is lacking on several fronts. Many people would argue against this because "it's so easy to get into TOD-OD combos". But it really isn't, if one were to look at matches in CP with Hakumen it's rare to see him dish out 6+k combos. This is because players have adjusted and adapted their play styles to prevent themselves from getting caught by fraudulent Hakumen tactics. All comparisons are with CSEX Hakumen. On neutral: I would he is the same or maybe even slightly better due to the buffs on jc (increased blowaway affect and does 1k now), along with Agito for people who are anxious run under you. The reason I say it might be the same is because in certain scenarios he can't confirm certain hits into combos. And I am not just saying that because I played him for 3 days, this comes from me watching matches. While I can't list the scenarios, because I'm writing this at the top of my head. His inability to get good damage off his AA coupled with it being slow makes him less of a defensive threat on neutral, along with basically the removal of 6d. He has has received a HUGE buff in the form of his meter gain, making it easier to dish out stars on neutral or offense. Overall on neutral, he's only truly a threat to a skilled player when he has access to his OD, otherwise his neutral game is above average if not average. On Offense: This is where I believe most of his tools come into play. Agito, along with being a good neutral game tool. Is also a basically get in for free tool, so long as it is spaced correctly, your opponent will not being able to AA reliably. While he lost some amazing gatlings like 2b>2b, this is supplemented with the ability to combo of a 6b CH. Which is a much needed buff in my opinion considering his design purpose, it makes mashing against him as even scarier then he used to be. Renka>Kishuu no longer nets as much damage as it used to, you get about 1k less in damage then you used to. Instead hakumen pretty much only damaging starter in combos is Zantetsu, his slowest starting attack. While it's great that it is an overhead and now has a vacuum effect on the second hit, it is very obvious and the opponent can reactively burst before it even touches them making. Renka>Kishuu was not only a very damaging starter but also very burst safe. B+C now causes staggering a big meter buff for Hakumen as well, since it opens a lot of combo options for him. The loss of not being able to combo off Tsubaki but receiving 800 extra damage is an overall nerf in my opinion, since that move was one of his best combo starters. Instead 66>j214c can only be used in conjunction with j214b then into OD. Now Tsubaki is a stand alone overhead. 6c has received important improvements from prorating well with Shippu (which now has different charge levels), to causing FC on CH or when fully charged opens up a lot of damaging combos for hakumen leading to 6k+ with 5 or more stars. HIs CT also has huge range compared to the rest fo teh cast making it great for brekaing the opponent's gaurd or for that extra damage at the beginning of a combo. On Defense: Hakumen was hurt the most in this respect, while he was designed to be the defensive character of the game. They have tried to redesign him to be more offensive. His counters took a huge blow among everything else in his repertoire in CP. 6d is no longer a 1frame active move, which hurt both his defensive options, thereby making him much more susceptible to overheads and constant pressure strings. This in my opinion is a huge nerf to Hakumen since now he essentially has a completely useless drive normal which takes at least 5 frames to start up. Hakumen already has a fairly large hitbox and a relatively slow AA making him more susceptible to air approaches, almost as much as his CS2 incarnation. 5d however, has received the ability to be optionally held down for additional active frames making it much more ambiguous to punish. 2d remains roughly the same and jd though has recieved a minimal height requirement, it can be comboed off of which is amazing. He has also received a buff to yukikaze, which you could say is to make up for the loss of his 6d. Though he did receive the ability to parry off his counters if you will, by pressing "A" after the opponent hitting Zanshin which can lead to impressive damage only in OD, the nerf to their hitboxes and the ability to block them makes him significantly less of a threat compared to his CSEX version. I'm sure there's things I skipped but this is what I see so far with CP Hakumen. A decent character who benefits the most from the games new systems which, pushes him over the limits into being one of the best characters in the game so long as he can open you up for an OD combo at any point in the match to wreck your health bar. I'm curious to see what you guys have to say. Also great job mAc on making the matchup threads and the awesome subtitles they all have like "Grumpy Old Men" lol.
Sophisticat Posted October 31, 2013 Author Posted October 31, 2013 Sweet write-up, Eb. I agree with pretty much everything. OD is really what bumps Haku up. If not for that, he wouldn't be as high as he is. Or you could do the 12K combo in the Combo thread. That's the one, lol.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 That's a nice write up Blade, and it seems pretty accurate too.
mAc Chaos Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) That's why I just say he's OD with a character attached. Also great job mAc on making the matchup threads and the awesome subtitles they all have like "Grumpy Old Men" lol. I just started putting down whatever came to mind. I was on a roll. Edited October 31, 2013 by mAc Chaos
toanenadiz Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 He is the king of comebacks now. I never thought I would miss Extend Hakumen.
Raziul Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Rage quit rates rise significantly when Haku enters the room.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 He is the king of comebacks now. I never thought I would miss Extend Hakumen. Assuming you let him touch you with a good OD starter, I guarantee people won't fear him 6-8 months from now, except for the random netplayer. I'm glad to see you guys agree with my writeup. Those are my observations, though I LOVE his new combo system in this one and I hope it sticks. It really just works. As for adjustments they'll need to add repeat proration in conjunction with the SMP already present. They'll also need to add it to Shippu potentially too to limit OD damage but, if they do that he'll need frame 1 6d, renka>kishuu and comboable Tsubaki (it should go back to 2.2k as well). I think then he'll good without being polarized in terms of good tools.
Raziul Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 What's gonna change in 6 months? People will be much more familiar with all of the changes made to Hakumen, and by then they will have found answers to his most predictable tactics.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 What's gonna change in 6 months? They'll learn to block Zantetsu and tech air grabs.
C0R Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 They'll learn to block Zantetsu and tech air grabs. I'm sure the gap between 4 years and 4.5 years is going to make all the difference.
toanenadiz Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I never got hit with that stuff during the set I just had and OD was still the most troublesome thing Hakumen had. What is his OD damage off of his normals (mainly his jB and 2B)? It felt like I was getting hit by 6K+ unburstable combos from those starters. OD Shippu is also a pain.
mAc Chaos Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Not sure yet. But if it's OD you can assume pretty much everything is going to be 6K+.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I'm sure the gap between 4 years and 4.5 years is going to make all the difference. Tell that to the Japanese players then. Watching sets like Suya vs Porocchino is evident of that.
dioxideUniversa Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 [Agito is] also a basically get in for free tool, so long as it is spaced correctly, your opponent will not being able to AA reliably. agito has all four properties (head, body, foot, and projectile) so it can't be AA'd at all in a head invuln sense i guess i win the page 400 post ??
psycofang2 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 did a small terumi write up, feel free to add to it with anything you know. playing terumi vs bladeofjustice gave me some good info (and curb stomp combos)
toanenadiz Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 When are you Hakumen players normally online? I want to get some more match-up experience since it requires more perfection than before and it is one of the match-ups I need to know how to handle.
_Yaya_ Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 When are you Hakumen players normally online? I want to get some more match-up experience since it requires more perfection than before and it is one of the match-ups I need to know how to handle. I'll be on later tonight around 7 or 8ish. Saw you in the lobby last night but I think you were AFK.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I'll post up if I play BB tonight, kinda tired and haven't played GG for a few days. Was in the middle of working on my execution and Ky's new R combos. EDIT: agito has all four properties (head, body, foot, and projectile) What? How? I'm curious about this actually.
Spark Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Not sure what you mean by how. But a lot of moves in this game lost head and foot properties. Like Hakumen 5C and 2C, so you can't use 5C to beat all of Noel's drives anymore.
mAc Chaos Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 How as in "why would it have those." Also that sucks with 5C. What can't it beat now?
BlackYakuzu94 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I love canceling into Shippu off 5D...it just feels right.
Spark Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 For Agito it has body so it will beat 6A type anti-airs that usually are only head attribute invincible. The foot property covers moves like Noel 4D or Hakumen's 623A which can only be hit by moves with foot attribute. The projectile is handy against Yukikaze, since you won't get stuck after being countered.
mAc Chaos Posted November 1, 2013 Posted November 1, 2013 Random thought: I wonder if we can get anything out of Enma FC > RC into stuff. Although I guess the way Enma throws them up in the air anyway already opens up any followup you want.
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