[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[someonewhodied]

you will never land that throw on me. I swear i will DP/act parser away whenever you get close. oh god I'm gonna love backwards act parsers

[BladeOfJustice7]

So that move that Nu13 got is an actual dp?

[Dreize]

That combo was absolutely hilarious, the rapid cancel made it even funnier. The best part about it was how easy it looked. Pulling off 10k Hakumen combos while sleeping is going to be the new fad in CP, I can feel it.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I'm starting to think my friend was right in saying Hakumen is becoming a scrub character.

That combo was retarded; and you wanna know the funny thing, he still had OD meter left.

[Errol]

the rapid cancel was to make it not prorate. I know I'm stating the obvious. He can RC his back throw after 1 hit, which gets 700 damage and starts a completely unprorated combo.

The back throw is not overdrive cancelable, the forward and air throws are. Granted, it seems like it kind of doesn't matter - RC = Longer OD, OD gives heat, OD cancel = shorter OD, more stars off the bat. But you get 700 damage off the RC.

Throws are a "Short" Combo too. They are supposed to be jab combo length, and theoretically that should limit their damage somewhat.

Whatever.

[toanenadiz]

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?16395-Xrd-News-(Theoretical)-Gameplay-Discussion/page59&p=1502612&viewfull=1#post1502612

Read that page and the next. I am not really sure if he ever got what I was trying to say or if GG is different or what.

He says that should never be an issue because you can buffer it during blockstun or hitstun.

I still am kinda of sketchy about this situation. That explanation works if there are gaps in the string but doesn't really explain gapless blockstrings. I wouldn't think buffering during hitstop would help unless fighting games keep directional inputs in the buffer for more than a few frames.

So that move that Nu13 got is an actual dp?

Nope. Nu does not have a meterless DP and should never have another one.

[Errol]

I still am kinda of sketchy about this situation. That explanation works if there are gaps in the string but doesn't really explain gapless blockstrings. I wouldn't think buffering during hitstop would help unless fighting games keep directional inputs in the buffer for more than a few frames.

In theory, that works, because it does keep directional inputs in the buffer.

In practice, I think this is kind of like Justice doing unlimited missile spam with a macro vs without a macro. I don't think you have much time where you can get a DP to come out while you are holding 1. So you would have to be inputing a dp shortly before where they could be a gap in a blockstring, and returning to 1 and pressing C when the gap would appear (you don't have many frames where this works.. BB's buffer is not huge like KOF, say). And then if there wasn't a gap, you gotta repeat for where the next gap is... and I mean.. You need to be aware of where all the gaps could be, and you need to input flawlessly just before every one of them. In some cases, those gaps can come very frequently. For instance a Bang, Platinum, or Taokaka chaining 2as. throw in trying to IB too?

it's just much easier said than done.

hmm. some more.

If you want a dp to come out if there's a gap but if you're not given a gap to still be blocking, basically, you have to be inputting your dp timed to the gap. However, when you are inputting the DP, there are still 3 frames where you aren't blocking, at the minimum. and a low can still come during those 3 frames. You're trying to input a dp so that a dp comes out if tsubaki's 2b>2bb was late chained (where there would be a gap)? Well, if 2bb wasn't late chained.. you just got hit. I think the buffer is too small for you to be inputting the DP early enough to avoid that..

theory... in practice I know I hit people with lows all the time when I know they must've been trying to mash DPs or supers, etc.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Errol

[someonewhodied]

yeah I was talking about the distortion DP. Against mac I always have heat, I'm just scared to use it :v

Freaking countering both my CAs and distortion DPs all the time :v

[toanenadiz]

Well in CP, he shouldn't be able to counter Nu's giant sword super on reaction to the super flash. It has one frame of start super after the super flash and it is an overhead so 2D won't work.

[psycofang2]

psycho...

>last i checked C buttons dont work when i projectile is right in hakumens face. less you know something i dont?

>they are probably scared of 2D countering the projectile but thats pretty iffy at best. 5d will not work especially on makotos stationary orb since its 5f start up.

You can counter projectile oki on demand, it's easy to see and do.

but how can you counter projectile OKI if its done on your wake up with no invincibility to cover the 5f start up of 5D when projectile is already on his face.

how does that make any sense at all.

>Really stupid idea.

>ill re iterate, its situational at best, you may as well just 5/2A them instead.

W/e, you have an option to counter overheads if you want to use it. and you yukikaze a lot on wakeup man.

doesnt matter its still a huge waste save for the most rutheless situations, its use is VERY limited and his star guage gives away the option to use it, most good players pay attention to his guage when hes on the dfensive. also i use yukikaze when i stop giving a damn because i get bored and feel like being risky for no real reward.

>its minus on block meaning the enmy can still meaty us regardless.

>which means they still have the advantage

>which means we are still stuck blocking anyway

>which means its not safe

unsafe means something can be punished.

if you do a counter, you cannot be punished for it.

By your logic, a neutral tech is unsafe. no, it isn't.

If you counter projectile oki, you don't get out of facing wakeup mixup necessarily. IF they block the counter, then you have to face mixup. But you get to face that mixup with an extra orb.

So why would I do projectile oki on Hakumen. It just gives you a free orb.

because unless the projectile is low enough he cant counter it anymore notice no hakumen has been doing it at all. just because you can doesnt mean you should, you get an extra orb yay, and now you are back on the defensive with a higher chance of screwing up and getting hit and losing more hp because you decided to counter and not just IB 5/2A your way out.

and again ill say just because i use yukikaze doesnt mean its ever a good idea.

like ever. like once every 5 or so matches because people will call it out more often after the 1st use.

[toanenadiz]

Am I missing something? Does CP Haku's 2D not counter projectiles anymore?

And how does countering a projectile put you in a worse situation than if you had just blocked it? (Assuming 2D counters projectiles) If they block it your successful counter, they get 15 frames to set-up a mix-up. I know that Nu's 236D is +50 on block, which would give her more time to set something up than if you countered it. You will also get more meter by countering than by blocking.

[Errol]

what are you trying to tell me psyco. are you trying to tell me no makoto players use comet cannon oki on Hakumen because they don't realize he can't counter it anymore?

as far as I know, the height of a projectile has nothing to do with whether you'd be able to counter it.

[psycofang2]

Am I missing something? Does CP Haku's 2D not counter projectiles anymore?

And how does countering a projectile put you in a worse situation than if you had just blocked it? (Assuming 2D counters projectiles) If they block it your successful counter, they get 15 frames to set-up a mix-up. I know that Nu's 236D is +50 on block, which would give her more time to set something up than if you countered it. You will also get more meter by countering than by blocking.

last i saw countering it gives you a star but puts you on the defensive if they block it (which the honestly should) which allows them to further use mixup.

2D can counter projectiles, but the projectile needs to be close enough to him, for example (this happens alot from what ive seen) a jin player will use 236C sword oki and the haku player tried to 2D it because even though its on his face it still hasnt moved close enough for the counter to catch thus getting him hit.

its kinda sad/funny to see. also 2d is no 6D, 6D pushes him forward to counter it so you dont have to wait or even see if its close enough to begin with. 2D on the other hand requires this.

what are you trying to tell me psyco. are you trying to tell me no makoto players use comet cannon oki on Hakumen because they don't realize he can't counter it anymore?

as far as I know, the height of a projectile has nothing to do with whether you'd be able to counter it.

read upward guy. theres a time and place for it but you cant just do it anymore.

2D should only be used on large or ground traveling projectiles because they WILL go to him. a stationary orb will not move. this is what makes it iffy.

Edited September 21, 2013 by psycofang2

[mAc Chaos]

I think he is trying to say that it's not worth the risk of using the counter because it just puts you back in mixup, better to just block it out.

[psycofang2]

I think he is trying to say that it's not worth the risk of using the counter because it just puts you back in mixup, better to just block it out.

this too, maybe im just bad at explaining things.

[Spark]

the rapid cancel was to make it not prorate. I know I'm stating the obvious. He can RC his back throw after 1 hit, which gets 700 damage and starts a completely unprorated combo.

The back throw is not overdrive cancelable, the forward and air throws are. Granted, it seems like it kind of doesn't matter - RC = Longer OD, OD gives heat, OD cancel = shorter OD, more stars off the bat. But you get 700 damage off the RC.

Throws are a "Short" Combo too. They are supposed to be jab combo length, and theoretically that should limit their damage somewhat.

Whatever.

The short combo modifier only applies if the 2nd hit of the back throw and air throw land.

[mAc Chaos]

Spark.

What do you think of Haku's counters compared to other games and what do you think they should ideally be like.

And can you input a 623 input during blockstun without getting hit by a low.

[psycofang2]

The short combo modifier only applies if the 2nd hit of the back throw and air throw land.

hi spark, feel like joining in on this little discussion?

you dont speak much.

[Errol]

I think he is trying to say that it's not worth the risk of using the counter because it just puts you back in mixup, better to just block it out.

Oh I can totally see it might not be worth the risk if you can't do it guaranteed. I do see hakumen players screw up and try to 2d the frog but it didn't go active yet.

comet cannon doesn't move though, if it's on top of you, you can 2d it, it'll be active on your wakeup, just mash it, that's all there is to it. if the comet cannon is placed so that it doesn't hit you on wakeup, then things are a little different. Makotos can place it so it won't hit you but if you press 2a or something you'll get hit. maybe even this doesn't work in EX because of 6d moving him forward. but one way or another, the istuation is still that none of the makotos use their projectile oki on him on wakeup, and I won't do it on tsubaki either I bet.

[Errol]

The short combo modifier only applies if the 2nd hit of the back throw and air throw land.

I see it on the air throw, but it doesn't look that way on the back throw?

air throw has -, Sp, S

back throw just has S

I would not be surprised at all to hear the mook isn't fully detailed on that though.

The short combo modifier only applies if the 2nd hit of the back throw and air throw land.

I see it on the air throw, but it doesn't look that way on the back throw?

air throw has -, Sp, S

back throw just has S

I would not be surprised at all to hear the mook isn't fully detailed on that though.

honestly I don't think it even matters. At that life total hakumen's OD is either 360F or 420F, and he had time left after the last shippu so say maybe 330-390F to do a 10k combo. The absolute time limit on a combo is 820F... minus 360F for a short starter and you've got 460 frames to kill someone. Assuming your combos don't break on account of having up to -15F untechable time. I have no clue how much leeway the ends of these OD combos have. I'm sure canceling anything into shippu is easy, but that 5c > 5c is pretty late and doesn't seem to me like it'd be untech deterioration-proof....

Edited September 21, 2013 by Errol

[C0R]

I think he is trying to say that it's not worth the risk of using the counter because it just puts you back in mixup, better to just block it out.

You eat a mixup regardless, at least remove the annoying thing doing chip damage on your face at no cost.

[mAc Chaos]

Yeah, I am going to be countering either way. F the police

[Spark]

Spark.

What do you think of Haku's counters compared to other games and what do you think they should ideally be like.

And can you input a 623 input during blockstun without getting hit by a low.

I can't say till I've played more match ups using them. For example: They're definitely way worse against Rachel now, no reason for her to not just do meaty rising j.A with George to beat all the counters and force a block on every wake up. I thought they'd would be way worse against Tager because of the range nerf, but with Enma cancel it might be better? I guess it depends if D > Enma will counter hit max range 5D.

5D: Not surprised that the hitbox got nerfed cause it's pretty big and was super useful as an anti-air. Even with the blockable and range nerf it still works pretty well as an anti-air since most people were too high to land in time to block when we played. Also 5D's active time when held is hilariously long makes countering projectiles even easier and people keep mistiming their poke so they get caught. Kind of funny that no one just punishes with a low.

6D: Doesn't really have a role or at least I couldn't find one. Maybe as an anti-air? It has fast recovery at least. Pre-CP I only used it to punish people for throwing projectiles too close to themselves while 6D was in reach(ie. kishuuing at George while it's infront of Rachel and 6Ding her with him). Honestly if they made it only counter mids and kept it frame 1 I would have been fine with it, but the way it is now is just odd.

2D: Being blockable only effects the characters with close up projectile oki. 2Ding someone into the corner with shippu + follow up combo gives similar damage to a 720.

jD: Minimum height requirement seems kind of random, would have made more sense 2 games ago. But hey you can combo off it again which I cool I guess. Should have given it an FC Agito cancel like how the ground versions have Enma cancel.

Overall: Not being able to 6D people's projectiles is the most disappointing loss for me personally. Enma canceling is cool it gives counters higher reward against close up characters like Valk and Jin. Thought 5D would get nerfed more and am surprised it didn't. Old counters were way better against projectile oki, less rewarding against close up pressure. New counters are worse against projectile oki, offer better reward against close up pressure.

For being hit with a low during 623 input I'm not 100% sure, but I think as long as you don't leave block stun you can only be hit by a low during the 6 part of the input. As long as you're in block stun you can technically be holding down forward the entire time and no lows will hit you, but I can't remember if standing up and crouching back down will keep you in this state.

air throw has -, Sp, S

back throw just has S

I would not be surprised at all to hear the mook isn't fully detailed on that though.

honestly I don't think it even matters. At that life total hakumen's OD is either 360F or 420F, and he had time left after the last shippu so say maybe 330-390F to do a 10k combo. The absolute time limit on a combo is 820F... minus 360F for a short starter and you've got 460 frames to kill someone. Assuming your combos don't break on account of having up to -15F untechable time. I have no clue how much leeway the ends of these OD combos have. I'm sure canceling anything into shippu is easy, but that 5c > 5c is pretty late and doesn't seem to me like it'd be untech deterioration-proof....

The mook doesn't actually explain what SP means or if it does no one's said anything. It's not one of the 4 values so it's kind of weird. Keep in mind that the OD bar doesn't go down during hitstop or super freeze(but Hakumen's meter will keep filling) so it's not really an accurate measure of time. If anything I'm sure Hakumen's airthrow damage will go up once console hits. I didn't get to try out any of my ideas for OD.

hi spark, feel like joining in on this little discussion?

you dont speak much.

Work started again, so I haven't been keeping up with stuff. That and GTA just came out.

[BlackYakuzu94]

You guys think with all of the nerfs to his counters, and the dumbass damage he does off Overdrive they're trying to Hakumen into a less defensive character and more into just into an offensive one?

[dioxideUniversa]

I don't want to start a fight over whether or not Hakumen's counters are overpowered or underpowered but I don't think it is right to just say that his counters have many more drawbacks than DPs. They are different in their function and while his counters do have drawbacks in certain situations when compared to DPs, they also are amazing in situations where DPs aren't. It really isn't doing them justice to mention their downsides only.

this is fair and i admit i did not really word or present those comments in a useful manner, though it's worth noting that i was responding to allegations that they can carry you, which is not really true and mostly why i focused on the negative in that context

You eat a mixup regardless, at least remove the annoying thing doing chip damage on your face at no cost.

I'd also feel like mixups where the opponent is forced to block are more potent than whatever comes after a whiffed parry, which I think would be one of the primary reasons that people dislike his ability to parry meaties

I'm starting to think my friend was right in saying Hakumen is becoming a scrub character.

i do not feel this is a super fair (or useful) attitude to adopt as defining hakumen as a "scrub character" based on the fact that he can get very large combos off one hit in one version of the entire game's history does not really define his gameplay design

i do not really understand people's need to extrapolate "very overpowered damage in this iteration" into other broad, irrational assertions

then again i do not exactly trust arcsys with balance as much after "CSE hakumen is too strong, they will probably nerf him next time" seriously, some of their workings confuse the shit out of me.