BBCS2 FINAL SHOWDOWN: Loketest 5, Nov. 15th Discussion

[WolfCrimson]

FlyingVe:If anything techrolls are removing depth, and adding another kind of depth, aren't they?

[faultydefense]

technically yes

but its like taking away chess and putting in checkers

or better yet, playing russion roullette instead of a quick draw

[FlyingVe]

Guessing, options, complexity =/= depth. Adding dynamite to RPS doesn't make the game deeper, it actually makes it worse.

Depth is about the interactions between different options, not the multitude of them.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate techrolls, I just think they need an adjustment.

[Darlos9D]

Techroll are not necessarily bad, but the way they are handled in BB removes depth from the game (IMO).

Henkai already said this, but, in most games knockdowns are about advantage. The standing person has a distinct advantage over the floored fool. In BB, there is still an advantage, but instead of oki, we have guessing. As such, the game become more of virtual RPS then it probably should be.

Also, by devaluing a knockdown you remove a layer of decision making from play. For example, do I go for the knockdown or damage?

Plus side of tech rolls is, it makes the game more distinct from other FG's, and it give characters without wakeup options some tools.

Sigh. I get the point of what you guys are saying. I really do. But I also like having some options when I'm the guy on the floor, too. Does that make me casual or something? I dunno. I just like it because it seems more realistic to me that a fighter who got knocked down wouldn't always just get back up in the same way. Taking that away would feel like the characters were being forced to act dumber and more robotic just for the sake of some meta-game.

Also, 3D fighters tend to have a lot of options for getting up off the ground, and I don't really see people complain about those. Of course, maybe I'm just talking to the wrong people.

To be fair though, I'd be okay with re-vamping the way tech rolls work or something.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Darlos9D

[FlyingVe]

Also to be fair, 3D fighters tend to have a lot of options for getting up off the ground, and I don't really see people complain about those. Of course, maybe I'm just talking to the wrong people.

3D fighters are whole different beast, what works there doesn't really work as well elsewhere.

And having more ground options is a big benefit of techrolls, and by extension lets you design characters without having to consider their wakeup option as carefully. This in turn helps the variety that we get out of BB characters. However, you really should be blocking 90% of the time anyways. Look at SF4, characters without a decent wakeup option get beat on pretty bad.

[faultydefense]

someone earlier mentioned how fighting games in general are guessing games

while i can't agree with that, there is some basis to it

on that note though, adding guesswork to the game isn't solving any problems. I believe you just prefer that wake-up, like some prefer apples to oranges. (but that does make you casual :p) I'd rather have the standing player go with a strong game-plan vs the rising players reaction abilities. There are always options...you don't have to block, but you shouldn't feel empowered.

realism is not an argument at all... you're shooting icicles, double jumping, and throwing people 5 times your size

On 3-d fighters, depending on the fighter its a non-issue. Most of them will have your character auto-follow the opponent on a 3d axis, a lot of moves will auto-track. Rolls are more punishable with no invuln, wake-up attacks are highly punishable, and you won't be throwing attacks right after quick-stands unless you REALLY want to eat your shit. I know from the tekken perspective they made wake-up really damn scary most of the time, getting up is an ordeal against some characters, especially in the corner (you can't roll through somebody doing a move with wind-up thats for damn sure)

hell, if they added all that to bb i'd feel much better about it

edit: at the least, back roll goes half distance, and forward roll can't go through the opponent. How's that sound? And remove the delayed quick-rise...that is completely uncalled for.

Edited November 19, 2010 by faultydefense

[Hecatom]

I like the BlazBlue characters more. :P

awwww...

you lost 180 cool pts for that :/

However, you really should be blocking 90% of the time anyways. Look at SF4, characters without a decent wakeup option get beat on pretty bad.

diferent game, diferent rules, imo techs are fine maybe some little tweaks here and there, but over all they are fine as they are, not every game should have the same mind set and rules, if that were the case then what is the point of playing different games

[eirei]

Sigh. I get the point of what you guys are saying. I really do. But I also like having some options when I'm the guy on the floor, too.

It was your fault you fell down, don't ask for a crutch if you can stand up.

[A.X.I.S.]

Your just mean eirei.

I'm just glad tager has repeatable pressure now.

[Kuuhaku]

awwww...

you lost 180 cool pts for that :/

More like I blame Guilty Gear for not having Rachel (though May is pretty cool).

[WolfCrimson]

FlyingVe: Ok, I dunno about 'guessing', but complexity, options = depth. I agree with you about options needing to interact (or making sense in the context of the situation), in which case they do here. Scoring a knockdown is about leaving you at an advantage over the person you just knocked down, isn't it? The current techroll system does that, you're still at an advantage over the person you knocked down. The way I see it, no matter what that guy does, you still have a way to re-apply pressure on him, i.e. you still have an advantage over him. It does however give him tools to escape (which are not shoryukens), keeping you as well on your toes. But you still have the advantage over him, it's just that you're not guaranteed to have it, depending on your actions, which isn't really guessing, more like reacting.

It's just not something most fg vets would be used to. It's not bad, just different.

PS: What's RPS?

[Mumm-Ra]

I agree wholeheartedly with SJ, throws having 100p1 made sense since they aren't exactly easy to land, I hope they reduce the tech frames window on them now, or change it back as it was before.

Arakune's throw would be pretty useless in fever mode if this stays.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Mumm-Ra

[shtkn]

well since most 3Cs basically force an emergency tech now, you get your traditional oki now right? from other knockdowns, you get the old roll-on-the-ground stuff. seems like a fair balance to me. you're sacrificing combo damage for better oki since ending combos with 3C mostly shortens combo length and damage.

i'm not sure wtf they're doing with throws. jin can't cancel his anymore, but can still get 2k or so. i don't know how good/bad it is for other chars.

[FlyingVe]

RPS = Rock, Paper, Sicissors

Also, there is a difference between advantage, and having the ability to guess right. Complexity and number of options DOES NOT yield depth. There is an extensive article about depth and options on Sirlin.net that might be worth a read.

Also, yes, different games have different rules, but FG's are not so dissimilar as not to use them as a point of comparison to one and other.

[FunkyP]

It's just not something most fg vets would be used to. It's not bad, just different.

Ugghh no, Blazblue is really the only game where people are gonna try to justify safety nets. What everyone is trying to say is that there is little to no reward for getting a knockdown which is so valuable in every other fighter ever in existence. The game is less rewarding for skilled or harder working players to cater to people who make more mistakes. Thats downright retarded and makes BB a joke of a competitive fighter.

[Darlos9D]

awwww...

you lost 180 cool pts for that :/

I'm eternally torn between the GG and BB cast because they both have their overall reasons for being likeable. The GG cast has a lot of immediate panache and cool factor, just because their designs are a lot cooler. As far as actual personality goes though I like the BB cast more.

But I digress. I already said that I get what people are saying about the ground tech system and that I'd be okay with revamping it a bit. I just feel that completely nixing the system BB has in place is a bit of overkill, since it is interesting on account of being different from other fighting games. No need to get all salty at me.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Darlos9D

[DogsofWar]

Someone correct me if im wrong but with the new Corner Bounce on ID and the other changes made,

Ragna will be able to:

6A jc>JC>JD jc JC>JD>ID cornerbounce >2C>5D?

Since big damage=corner damage, this should put you into a great postition.

[eirei]

Considering ID only bounces in the corner and wallsticks elsewhere (iirc), I don't see how you'll get that to work.

[DogsofWar]

Considering ID only bounces in the corner and wallsticks elsewhere (iirc), I don't see how you'll get that to work.

Oh, only in the corner... missed that. guess that ideas out the window...

[Dacidbro]

If you think that BB knockdown isn't strong you're probably very bad at punishing the roll or play an obnoxiously low tier character.

Not to say that you don't have to read their wakeup, but that knockdown is almost always desirable, and there are circumstances where your opponent often can do nothing but neutral tech.

[Mumm-Ra]

I thought "wall bound" only works near the corner?

[No Limitz]

I'm eternally torn between the GG and BB cast because they both have their overall reasons for being likeable. The GG cast has a lot of immediate panache and cool factor, just because their designs are a lot cooler. As far as actual personality goes though I like the BB cast more.

I wouldn't say cool, just non-conformist. So that makes all GG characters hipsters.

Not that cookie-cutter anime archtypes are any better.

[Skye]

If you think that BB knockdown isn't strong you're probably very bad at punishing the roll or play an obnoxiously low tier character.

Not to say that you don't have to read their wakeup, but that knockdown is almost always desirable, and there are circumstances where your opponent often can do nothing but neutral tech.

Not every character benefits substantially from knockdown, unless it's corner.

[Spirit Juice]

The teching system in BB is fine on paper, but the problem is that many characters cannot punish tech rolls. If they can punish them, most of the time it's not very well. There is nothing wrong with keeping the tech roll system in the game, but some adjustments should be made. IMO, Melty Blood's system is pretty solid, as there is a tech system, but you're forced to make a tech decision as soon as you hit the ground. Something like that could improve tech roll system, or maybe just make them easier to punish (less invulnerability frames).

[DogsofWar]

less invulnerability frames would be the easiest way to fix the problem.