BBCS2 FINAL SHOWDOWN: Loketest 5, Nov. 15th Discussion

[zeth07]

I feel the game NEEDED damage nerfs, i hope that's not contested. The game as a whole though really favored the defensive for the longest time, I can't say for sure if ti'll be like that after these balance patches, but if it is we're gonna be dealing with a lot of time-outs for a lot of match-ups. Give characters true-oki instead of turning most wake-ups into guessing games, and you'll allow the game to be more offense oriented without rolling over people's defense. At the moment, a lot of characters just have to sit and watch to see what the person on the ground is going to do. Sure they can follow a roll in an attempt to get the wake-up pressure they earned, but a lot of them deserve to be able to set-up some kind of meaty. I miss being able to do overheads on some1's wake-up you know? As opposed to just chasing down fuckers with 2A, or trying to figure out if they neutral teched, or quick teched. You're taking away waaay too much power from the person on offense, while arbitraily giving it to characters like ragna or litchi who just have all encompasing moves that will eat any tech. Even that though is removing the thought process just to get someone to block.

I agree with this post almost entirely. I hate the tech system for the reasons you stated.

The only thing I disagree slightly on is the damage nerfs, which really only depends on how I look at the combos and what they are trying to accomplish.

If they want small combos, I don't understand why they would also nerf the damage. The rounds already take forever in competitive matches, making even lower damaging combos and just more of them isn't going to help that. If they wanted small combos I would've thought they would go for higher damage for all characters.

I don't agree with really long high damage combos either (CS Litchi). But having everyone do damage like CS Rachel/Tsubaki doesn't seem right either. I would think CS Hakumen would be the more appropriate combo length/damage if they truly wanted shorter combos.

10+ hits for regular BnBs (not beginner ones) for the average damage, and 15+ for advanced high damaging combos seems reasonable. But 20-30 hits for high damage is not cool just due to length alone. And 10-15 hits for barely any damage isn't either due to a lot of effort for no real impact. At least that's how I would look at it.

Guess we gotta wait and see how the overall game turns out.

[Skye]

With this many changes in gameplay, I HIGHLY doubt console gets a patch let alone a free update.

They said a while back that it was going to be a patch, patches are almost always (I've never heard of paying for a console patch) free.

[Spirit Juice]

I'm not sure I agree with throws prorating so hard when they're still seven frame start up and have a thirteen frame tech window. Throws should only prorate so hard if they actually made them faster/harder to tech. At this point, going for a throw seems pretty pointless.

[LunaKage]

I'm not sure I agree with throws prorating so hard when they're still seven frame start up and have a thirteen frame tech window. Throws should only prorate so hard if they actually made them faster/harder to tech. At this point, going for a throw seems pretty pointless.

While the guaranteed damage aspect of a throw makes them seem pointless, I'd still think most of them would provide oki, still risky though.

[Hecatom]

With this many changes in gameplay, I HIGHLY doubt console gets a patch let alone a free update.

patches always are free, you charge for added content like cars like on BurnOut, new maps on the FPS, or on this case the characters

[eirei]

Stay free, patches.

[tataki]

I'm not sure I agree with throws prorating so hard when they're still seven frame start up and have a thirteen frame tech window. Throws should only prorate so hard if they actually made them faster/harder to tech. At this point, going for a throw seems pretty pointless.

IMO GGXXAC should be the standard of how throws need to be in terms of frames and reward.

Prorating the damage is fine, but they should also make them faster and with a smaller tech window...

[A.X.I.S.]

@ SJ Actually some characters have 6F normal throws and 7F back throws.

but that has nothing to do with the point your trying to make.

I like the throw change, that means I don't have to worry about people getting damage plus meter equivalent to a 360B.

BBCSII: get a command grab or you suck.

[FlyingVe]

SJ is still right, if they're gonna nerf the damage that hard, they can't be so easy to tech.

ALso, the best throw system if VF, but that wouldn't really work in BB.

[ZONG_one]

Can I have an FRC for my throw?

And level 2 rockets?

I wish Mori would just add RoboKy to this game.

[Spirit Juice]

IMO GGXXAC should be the standard of how throws need to be in terms of frames and reward.

Prorating the damage is fine, but they should also make them faster and with a smaller tech window...

My point is that in BB, throws SHOULD be rewarding when you land them because they are so awful in terms of landing them. If they're going to nerf the damage return from throws, they NEED to make them faster (three to four frames would be good) and have a smaller tech window.

[Darlos9D]

I'm not sure I'm on board with this whole "ground teching is bad" thing. Maybe I'm just too much of a scrub to have a proper opinion on the issue, but it seems to me that guessing games are the whole damn point of fighting games. If everything was simple and guaranteed then there wouldn't be much of a contest. So it seems like a weird argument to say that tech rolling is a bad ability because it makes the person on offense have to guess more. So? That's combat, man. Trying to guess what the enemy might do next. BB just handles it differently.

It just sounds like people are asking that a certain aspect of the fight be just like other fighting games, simply because that's what they're used to in other fighting games. Or something. I dunno. I just know that ground teching is, like, my last complaint about this game.

[Beautiful Death]

I think throws are fine. Suppose if the bigwigs want to make the game less defensive, I guess ya probably want to take a few frames off the tech window. Around 3 or so sounds just gravy. Yeah. Would mesh well with the new and improved proration. Yes indeedy.

I don't really have a problem with the tech system either, and certainly don't want it to be taken out and replaced with standard wakeup. It's BlazBlue, it's not supposed to be Guilty Gear. Different games. Could it be improved? Probably. But it's here to stay. Hopefully.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Beautiful Death

[kenja0]

My point is that in BB, throws SHOULD be rewarding when you land them because they are so awful in terms of landing them. If they're going to nerf the damage return from throws, they NEED to make them faster (three to four frames would be good) and have a smaller tech window.

Agreed. Either that or give throws Heat Gain like CT Arakune's throw; just, you know, uncomboable.

Edited November 19, 2010 by kenja0

[Skye]

Or lets all play Guilty Gear.

[mAc Chaos]

Or lets all play Guilty Gear.

I like the BlazBlue characters more. :P

[Beautiful Death]

If you want a game in which throws are DAMN SICK play some Smash. Ice Climbers if you want the most BANG for your BUCK.

[FunkyP]

- Air-unblockable normals

- Less reward for throws and overheads(for some characters)

- shorter combos

- less damage

this isn't guilty gear, sounds more like holddownback fighter 4

[A.X.I.S.]

If you want a game in which throws are DAMN SICK play some Smash. Ice Climbers if you want the most BANG for your BUCK.

That game is forbidden talk, we also agreed its not a fighter.

Melty was a more appropriate answer.

I'm more concerned about tager's normal throw...we can't follow up from it, makes me wonder what combo's do we get for it.

Air hit 5B can't be combo'd without CH or FC either, hope Arc changes that.

[Skye]

I like the BlazBlue characters more. :P

It always seems that everyone has the bestest advice on how to fix BB.

The advice always references to GG.

Then people say they don't want BB to be like GG.

[STenSatsu]

Agree with SJ. They need to make throws easier to land if they want it to prorate. Also, not sure what all the hate for the tech system is for. I think the only thing I really don't like about it is back rolling midscreen because of the stage size and how some characters can completely negate the system sometimes. You can still meaty overhead somebody with the neutral teching which is pretty easy to see. (It's like 30+f I think.) It's a different type of 'oki' than GG since you are more removing options than just going for free mixups, but this game isn't GG.

[RadRed]

I can understand the points being made about the ground tech system being flawed, but I also feel as if it may not be worth bringing up considering the BlazBlue series as a whole is (allegedly) designed to be more accessible to less skilled players.

So long as the developers stay focused on that idea, I reckon it's safe to say there will always be gameplay quirks that the competitive scene is going to take issue with. The ground tech system notwithstanding.

I love the Guilty Gear series. I love its characters, its story, its music, its gameplay; everything, really. Thing is, if I'm going to be entirely honest, I'll probably always be absolute garbage at it.

I respect the depth and complexity of it and especially the people who play it at such a high level, but I'm more in tune with BlazBlue's simplicity. Therefore, I probably won't be as welcome to certain changes that, although would make the game better as a competitive fighter, would make things a lot more difficult for players like me.

[WolfCrimson]

FunkyP: NOOOOOO THE HORROR NOOOOOO ANYTHING BUT THAT!

OK, on-topic: Seriously, there's nothing wrong with BB's throw as they are now. They feel like they're a bit on the weak side (at least for the characters I play), but they do OK damage. Dunno what ArcSys were thinking, but at least it still isn't the final build. Hopefully this change will be undone before CS2 gets released. Hopefully.

[FlyingVe]

Techroll are not necessarily bad, but the way they are handled in BB removes depth from the game (IMO).

Henkai already said this, but, in most games knockdowns are about advantage. The standing person has a distinct advantage over the floored fool. In BB, there is still an advantage, but instead of oki, we have guessing. As such, the game become more of virtual RPS then it probably should be.

Also, by devaluing a knockdown you remove a layer of decision making from play. For example, do I go for the knockdown or damage?

Plus side of tech rolls is, it makes the game more distinct from other FG's, and it give characters without wakeup options some tools.

[faultydefense]

Techroll are not necessarily bad, but the way they are handled in BB removes depth from the game (IMO).

Henkai already said this, but, in most games knockdowns are about advantage. The standing person has a distinct advantage over the floored fool. In BB, there is still an advantage, but instead of oki, we have guessing. As such, the game become more of virtual RPS then it probably should be.

Also, by devaluing a knockdown you remove a layer of decision making from play. For example, do I go for the knockdown or damage?

thank you, this is worded better than my wall of text