Skye Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 That's a lot of insight. Outside looking in, I always thought FRKZ was this install that skyrocketed Bang's mobility, mix up and damage potential. Yes there are risks, but it always seemed that if activated right (during a combo, blockstring during an opponent's whiffed attack), the benefits can outweigh the risks.
huey253 Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 So you think it's a good idea to use FRKZ against Arakune and Litchi for example in terms of the match-up, not the players playing? no but it makes his some matchups that he would normally be in the disadvantage in, in his favor. especially in CT you didn't say every matchup...
zeth07 Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 (edited) That's a lot of insight. Outside looking in, I always thought FRKZ was this install that skyrocketed Bang's mobility, mix up and damage potential. Yes there are risks, but it always seemed that if activated right (during a combo, blockstring during an opponent's whiffed attack), the benefits can outweigh the risks. In my opinion, I think it is situational in a broad sense. 1) How* far into the match did it take for you land 4 seals / get 50% Heat? -If they are practically dead....probably not needed to go into FRKZ at that point. -If you landed 4 seals early and got 50% before they are below about 50% health and you think it'll help you win the match, sure why not. 2) What character are you fighting against? -Tager, yes go for it. -Arakune/Litchi, maybe hold off on it unless it is a match winning instance, or the opponent isn't good against it. -Lambda, she's probably already dead..... 3) Does the opponent have experience against FRKZ or after you use it in match did it seem like they could stop you? -If no, go for it. -If yes, consider the above before doing so. 4) Will it turn the tide of the match or win you the match outright if you do it in a particular instance either mid-combo or before the active frames of their attack (or whatever)? -If yes, do it. -If no, maybe. 5) Do you think saving 50% for Bangs Counter Assault would be more useful? -If yes, don't use it. -If no, consider the above. At least that's some of the things I think about before using it. no but it makes his some matchups that he would normally be in the disadvantage in, in his favor. especially in CT you didn't say every matchup... I know, but doesn't that make sense for a reason why I said it isn't like some auto win button. If it's not a good idea in certain match-ups, than it isn't some end all be all thing to do to win the match, which is what my point was. Edited March 7, 2011 by zeth07
Reioumu Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 You guys are all terrible... You're supposed to just "do it"
rei-Scarred Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 CA > FRKZ. Sure FRKZ Bang vs. Tager is 10-0 but changing an 8-2 matchup to even more in your favor is dumb. Real talk though when Axis said Bang-Tager was 6.5-3.5 I couldn't believe it. True optimist if I ever saw one.
huey253 Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 to be fair, its alot easier to get mashed out in frkz.
Skye Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 (edited) In my opinion, I think it is situational in a broad sense. 1) How* far into the match did it take for you land 4 seals / get 50% Heat? -If they are practically dead....probably not needed to go into FRKZ at that point. -If you landed 4 seals early and got 50% before they are below about 50% health and you think it'll help you win the match, sure why not. Those are good points, I see it sort of similar to Arakune curse where it doesn't really matter when you obtain it, because when you do the match up is highly in your favor if you're not sleeping on it. 2) What character are you fighting against? -Tager, yes go for it. -Arakune/Litchi, maybe hold off on it unless it is a match winning instance, or the opponent isn't good against it. -Lambda, she's probably already dead..... Hm, so I take it Arakune and Litchi have effective tools for escaping pressure and mix up during FRKZ? I can see they might have methods of preventing a safe approach, but once Bang gets in, etc etc, which is why I always thought it's best to activate it up close during a combo/blocksting, notwithstanding bursts, it takes away the immediate caution of having to get in. 3) Does the opponent have experience against FRKZ or after you use it in match did it seem like they could stop you? -If no, go for it. -If yes, consider the above before doing so. This I had to think about, because if they have experience against FRKZ, then they have experience against Bang in general and actively kept him from getting seals in the first place, I've never seen a player, US or JP, who was that badass to block FRKZ mix/cross up, from what I've watch the best way to handle FRKZ outside of Bnag dancing around you is to stay in the air and use your best air normal and space it well, it's to keep Bang from getting in so easily, because once he does get in, you better have a burst or get ready to eat some damage. I'd like for you to go into detail on this one. 4) Will it turn the tide of the match or win you the match outright if you do it in a particular instance either mid-combo or before the active frames of their attack (or whatever)? -If yes, do it. -If no, maybe. Well, if you turn the tide, doesn't it increase your chances, I do understand what you mean, timing is essential, because the removed ability to normal block is a wild card, so it's best to finish it in as few combos as possible, so I guess I get what you're saying. I wouldn't use it as a reversal, personally. 5) Do you think saving 50% for Bangs Counter Assault would be more useful? -If yes, don't use it. -If no, consider the above. It always seemed like Bang had plenty of tools to get out of pressure, but there are some characters in which Bang has no other risk free alternative, again timing of activation is important, it seemed like Bang's best bet is to FRKZ when he is on the offensive. At least that's some of the things I think about before using it. Thanks for the input. Edited March 7, 2011 by Skye
Nini Heart Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 Hello fellow Bang players, after spending a week with Bang in CS2 all I can say is...Bang might as well be back to CT status...I'm sure you guys have seen vids and can see he's not as strong this time around. But I PERSONALLY feel Bang isnt all that viable. Playing him now means you really love the character, and he takes alot of work and technical skill that the best way to explain him now is...high risk/low reward. I'd like to write a full article about him but I haven't finished my notes I'd like to push right now so I'll be jotting down some more notes before I write this large thing out *or however big it gets when its done*. For the record, FRKZ still doesn't make Bang any better, it just means mid screen dmg. You might be underestimating him a bit though since you play him. I mean, you beat Tsujikawa and Fumo and a bunch of other top players with him so he can't be that bad can he? I can tell he's weaker than his CS1 incarnation by far but the way you say it, you make me think about CS1 Noel:( which makes it seem like a slight exaggeration of his weakness.
huey253 Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 he is pretty close to CT but with real corner damage. his midscreen damage about the same... the one thing you could say with cs1 noel, is that she still had damage.
Chazmobile Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 I'm just glad that he hasn't truly gone back to his CT level, I kind of enjoy some safe pressure. (and decent damage)
Kensou Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 (edited) EVERYONE'S FAVORITE NINJA: BANG SHISHIGAMI! In this write up I'm going to go in depth with what I've currently experienced with Bang and my opinion on him in Continuum Shift 2. As a disclaimer, please take this information and do what you will with it but remember this is an opinion and as time goes by, may subject to change. Why? Well, games tend to evolve and opinions begin to change as new discoveries are found so again remember this isn't concrete! Now with all the formalities and disclaimers out of the way, let's get to the meat and potatoes shall we? FIRST IMPRESSIONS? My first impressions of Bang weren't really all that great to be completely honest. It felt like alot of work with him in the previous game went to waste. I felt he lost alot of what made him great and it really made me wonder about the balance decisions that were made for him. The more I play him the more I realize that you really just have to be on point with everything now. The margin for error is still there and luckily Bang has the hit points to deal with it. This version of Bang will teach players to learn more than the surface level stuff in Continuum Shift to fully exploit the more technical aspects of Bang's tool set. To be fair, Bang on mid to low level can scrounge by with the simple strategies but as you went up the ladder it's alot harder when your opponnent understands your options. Now it's not to say you can't win at a high level with the simpler strategies at all, Satoshi proved that countless times. However it's players like Dora and Nezu for example that raised the bar on Bang's potential dating back to Calamity Trigger till even now in Continuum Shift 2. The best way I can put it is, think of CS1 as a primer for CS2 Bang. Getting an understanding of him in CS1 will make the learning curve less by a far margin. NORMALS As you may already know Bang's important normals are alot slower and hitboxes have been re-worked, namely 5A and 5B. 5A is DEFINITELY 1f slower making it a 6f move. Not really all that bad but a bit harder to open with now not to mention anti air with. 5B I believe is now 10f start up now so already you can tell its a bit harder to use these as starters to open ground offense. I will say that 5B and 2B being air unblockables are pretty useful. The new 6B is still the same start up it just doesn't give you the knockdown to an OTG combo any more. However I believe on counter hit standing, it forces crouch and you can link 5A into a combo. The new gatling listed 2B > 5B I feel is pretty good due to the new start up of 6A being 17f and it seems to be the same +1 adv on block. His strings now are more varied due to this making for some pretty cool frame trapping since instant blocking has been reduced from ground -5 and aerial -10 to -3 and -6. Mixing the 6A and every other normal is pretty neat now because the 6A locks them in place if no barrier was used yielding some interesting results. So definitely a plus in this department. *NOTES ON GUARD POINTS* -6D is your new best friend with the best amount of G.P.s. It stops highs and lows but is vunerable to overheads -2D is good but slow to start with jump cancel attached to it. Pretty dangerous if used right -5D really fast start up -J.D feels about the same as CS1 SUPER CRUSH! aka PULVERIZING FIST~! The loss of this move's old properties on hit is what really hinders Bang the most to me. The loss you ask? The loss of the wall bounce hurts his mid screen game and overall combo abilities specifically mid screen. Don't get me wrong, it still breaks one primer like CS1 so its application for that is still good. Unlike CS2, Bang could always rely on this move for all his standard combos mid screen, be it an ender or mid combo tool it was always there for his all purpose combo tool. Since the new focus of CS2 is corner positioning, this move no longer serves this purpose. Instead if you haven't seen in videos, it throws the enemy across the screen. Now, on Fatal Counter you get the wall bounce mid screen and in corner non Fatal Counter you get the wall bounce like you normally would. But the shift in corner positioning for everyone to dish out the damage doesn't hurt Bang all that much but the strategy is the problem. I feel his strongest position overall is the mid screen because his ability to mix up is alot stronger. THE NEW STRATEGY? With the new system of Instant Blocking, frame trapping seems to be pretty effective. Frame trapping with 5B >6A, 5A > 6A, 2B, 5B, 6A, all of these are viable and keep the strings fresh and lead to counter hits. Again, the varied strings allow for interesting guard strings and pressure. I also think setting a bumper or two is pretty important. It doesn't garuntee you a win but getting to the end result is alot easier. Bumpers allow for baiting, mixups, the ability to close distance from the enemy or create distance from the enemy. Many of you know this as it stands but not many Bang players use them to their advantage. My suggestion? Learn how to use them! In CS1 bumpers aren't a necessity but more of a compliment to your game, it's sort of the same again but a player can always use another movement option. The corner is the focus as stated before, so naturally you have to decide damage over the okizeme. Mid screen is Bang's best friend due to all the okizeme options he can perform with and without bumpers not to forget Fuu-Rin-Kazan which I will touch base on further on. However, the mid screen damage is limited to a standing enemy to net good damage. *A quick break down of damage non corner stocked if you haven't been watching videos* -Standing Enemy = 2-3k depending on counter hit j.4B or j.C with 1-2 Seals depending on if you want to use a Web Nail -Crouching Enemy = 1.5-3k roughly depending on counter hit jumping attacks from the above and either 1 Seal, knockdown and okizeme, Super Crush ender leaving you at neutral positioning or end with Daifunka yielding in 3k So on one hand, you can stick to the mid screen okizeme but not be able to really dish out the major damage due to not being in the corner. Not to mention, if you are crossing up, which you will be doing, you will take longer to get to the corner positioning to dish out the high damage. On the other hand, you can end with Super Crush which gives you corner carry but at the same token leaves you back at neutral position or use 50% Heat on Daifunka for the full screen carry. However, there are some instances you may have your back to the wall and while you can turn the tide and change positioning with an opening, it might be best to take the fight back to the mid screen to regain momentum after landing a combo or after successfully escaping pressure. This is of course not to say a player couldn't just done the exact opposite, so it's up to the player to make the decision they feel is best in this regard. Damage versus positioning is the question a player will always be thinking about at all times when playing Bang. FUU-RIN-KAZAN! FRKZ! One of Bang's greatest tools is one of his most risky tools this time around. But before I get into it, a quick break down of what I feel FRKZ was per game and what I feel it is now. *Calamity Trigger* -Defensive mechanic with great movement options to evade and advance -Allowed for Bang to always dish out great damage -Best baiting tool in the game versus a burst or counter assault -Run away Poison Nail -Slightly stiff on execution on some points *Continuum Shift* -Offensive and Defensive mechanic with the same options above with higher damage output -Easier to execute commands all the way around *Continuum Shift 2* -Offensive mechanic more so than the previous games -Harder to bait things due to the shorten back dash distances -Defensively you will have a hard time avoiding things especially bursts This is my stance on FRKZ in my opinion. Now after watching alot of videos and messing around with my own research it seems that FRKZ just doesn't really yield the rewards of either of the old games. The shortened back dashes going up-back and back just truly makes his abilities to bait harder when this tool is used for that purpose and then some. His mid screen damage from it is great, I personally haven't done the combos but the stuff Nezu and Dora are doing looks solid and staple for FRKZ. Seals seem harder to obtatin depending on the match up I think. Of course, having them stocked is always good most definitely though. Matches like Arakune and Carl I think more so than ever its important. Much like in CT versus Carl especially, FRKZ is a must to not have to deal with the clap infinite, and like in CS1 for Arakune you need it to get rid of the Curse Gauge. This time around you really have to know what you're doing with FRKZ because the margin for error seems a bit higher than before. In some of the recent Game A-Cho videos I've seen Nezu use FRKZ and still lose pretty hard. It's slightly discouraging but I believe there's still hope for this tool. I honestly think bumpers are just that much better than FRKZ in most instances due to the movement options not being limited. So to sum it up once again, FRKZ for the matches like Arakune, Carl, Tager etc and bumpers for everything else universally. THE SUMMARY? Playing Bang now means you really can't afford to make too many mistakes and you need to be precise more often than not. A very high degree of technical skill and extensive knowlege of Bang's tool set is required this time around. Huge emphasis on corner carrying versus mid screen okizeme determines how a you go about dealing damage. Alot of Bang's old bad matches from CT are here again so you have to take a page from CT and re-use those strategies with the newer tactics. Getting Seals is a bit of a task so getting to FRKZ can be difficult. Also FRKZ isn't all that strong defensively with the limited backwards movement but, more so offensively with a high risk/high reward stigma attatched to it. All in all he's still a good character its just a matter of getting adjusted to his new changes. Hope this helps you guys out as a primer of sorts so..discuss~ -If at all possible would be great if we could get this on front page or something? Figure it'd be good for everyone to read not only just in the Bang threads. Just a thought? Edited March 8, 2011 by Kensou
DaiAndOh Posted March 9, 2011 Author Posted March 9, 2011 It'll be up front in this thread. I'll see what I can do with the article.
huey253 Posted March 9, 2011 Posted March 9, 2011 small correction : -6D is your new best friend with the best amount of G.P.s. It stops mids and lows but is vunerable to overheads intresting read, thanks kensou
Reioumu Posted March 9, 2011 Posted March 9, 2011 other than that, do you think tk j.623B could be used for poking?
iw2ma Posted March 10, 2011 Posted March 10, 2011 ^This I've seen Dora do what seems to be a poking j.623B to people, unpunished.
Reioumu Posted March 10, 2011 Posted March 10, 2011 there is no reward for landing it... corner carry, fatal counters, primer on block.
kid viper Posted March 10, 2011 Posted March 10, 2011 tk super crush on a grounded opponent has less carry than ground super crush. this allows for better positioning since it has quicker recovery so by the time they've teched you'll be close enough to them for pressure.
Chazmobile Posted March 10, 2011 Posted March 10, 2011 Does Bang seem to have any decent follow-ups to his command grab midscreen, or is all his meter best saved for the corner?
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