[CS2] Carl Clover Tactical Discussion/Questions/Help

[JG]

the carl forums are always a waste land unless its loc-test or new-release time. Because carl players are a myth. we don't actually exist.

I like to post here, but i have to admit that my native language isn't english, so i just try to post specifics stuff or ask question.

If i had a HD video card recorder i would gladly try to make a Carl combo video, but hell they are expensives.

O well, i just want that they don´t make useless Carl in Cs2 extended.

Carl for S TIER!!!!

[Marisa]

If all you want is to get video on your computer, an EasyCap is cheap. Not the greatest of quality but it gets the job done.

And yeah, Carl forums tend to be dead. Low userbase and being an advanced character doesn't bode well for forum chatter.

[JG]

Carl forum dead? i dont think so. This is one of the section that have the most post count in comparition to the other chars on dustloop.

The reason why now is kinda dead, is because wee need more information related to the changes for Carl in Cs2 ++++++++++. Without that, no one can´t really speculate how it will be.

Im just have the feeling, that we are loosing ours options in the next BB.

[Akira-Shiro]

I wouldnt say that,,, JG so far our forward dash can still cancel into a regular attack. As in 66>(3D)ja>ja>jb/3D still works as an UB setup. This new dash has given us a new way to go about approching people. Now that our forward dash goes into attacks, we can dash in on people in a somewhat safe way. Now we wont need to worry about getting caught out of our dash mid way by bullshyt. That also gives us a 11f OH 66>ja will most deff be a wonderful tool. Not only did they Buff our Nirvana guage but they also made it so we dont need to use her for mix-up as much thanks to our new dash. So in all actuality id say so far carl is looking pretty good ^-^ imo all thats left is to see just how 4D & 2D have been changed.

Just to relieve some of the anxiety it is impossible for them to make 2D none combo-able, the locktest clearly says that they horizantal float has been increased, so this means that instead of them flying almost directly up then falling almost directly down. They go at an angle so there is a larger gap in between nirvana & the position the enemy will land. Making it harder for us to use a 4D combo after a 2D reset which is a nerf but not a big one. however at the some time if we were to do a 2D reset and we didnt have the meter for a 4D combo we would be kinda screwed because even if u wanted that 4k u deserve you would need to hold nirvanaa on and move her backwards so u could do a simple air combo into 8D all of which drains meter, with this change we will no longer need to keep her on and move her backwards because by the time our air combo is finished they will fall right infront of nirvana giving us that godlike jc 3D oki.

As for 4D it says that they fly higher in the air after being hit what we can assume it that they are talking about the second hit of 4D. Which means that after we forward dash they will still be in the air making 5c whiff which would be considered a nerf. However at the same time its a buff because after a 4D crossup the enemy would be to low to the ground and it would make it difficult to combo after. Since they float higher now that no longer becomes a problem. So yes both CAN be considered a nerf but i believe we are taking the term neft to the next level we could consider both of these to be reworks of a sort

[Mascarpone]

the god-like-ness of 3D oki remains to be tested, as it no longer forces standing. I think the ground bounce will be useful still since it will trap them but in all likelihoods they'll be otg after 3D and able to tech which puts us in a reversal-vulnerable state. Strong Oki? yes, but probably not god-like anymore.

I also wonder if the 2D change will see a resurgence of using j.2C allegretto 8D(2hit) set ups. Which i was always terrible at... lol.

As far as 4D is concerned, does it expressly state that it's 'harder to combo after?' because my memory is fuzzy at the moment. Higher trajectory is fine as long as they remain unable to tech until they are near the ground and 5C pick ups still are possible. Even better would be the posibility of j.2C alle~can sj.B pick ups because yay! no more whiffing basic BnB on makoto's hit box! but that's me dreaming and not double checking notes. because i'm lazy.

[Akira-Shiro]

Mas i dont think u understand,, the reason 3D is so godlike in the CS2 isnt necessarily because it causes standing,, but because it catches people out of there roll. In ct & CS if u roll on 3D they get knocked into the air and could tech almost instantly. In this version they get snached up by the attack, it doesnt really matter if they are forced to stand or just get hit on the ground like lambdas move,, So long as we have the ability to combo if they roll. 3D has a P1 of 90 thats the same as 2D & 4D so we can get more dmg off of a 3D reset now. Think about it,, it you catch someone out of a roll with 3D they are in standing position,, carl cannot combo standing people which it why 623c is so important in are combos but its not so good because we need to hit them long enough for ada to recover & try to get big damage of of it.

However ull probably get about 3.5k from a 3D otg but now we can skip the 5b>6B>cantabile and just go straight into a combo after ada does 3D like j2c allecan>5c>jb>j2c>jb>jb>jc>volante>5c>jb>j2c>jb>jb>jc>8D for like 4.5k

[Mascarpone]

That's just the thing tho, can we combo them off the roll? if they are forced to stand they can get hit with anything, but if they are bouncing off the ground, that limits our options of what we can hit them with, if anything at all. Furthermore How soon can they tech after the final hit of 3D? If they can emergency tech that gives us a very small window of opportunity to combo if they roll away. We also still need to give nirvana time to recover from 3D, and if they roll away, even if we pick them up into an air combo, we'll be comboing them away from nirvanna, making the timing on a volante combo (if even posibble) tricky, and pushing them out of CON positioning. While you may need to go into cantabile to continue combos with forced standing, it's quite simple to force them back into CON off of cantabile combos. This is why I question the God-like status. I'm not saying it isn't good, just i'm not sure it will be as amazingly powerful as it is now.

I'm also still up in the air on this 6C thing. I think the most important question is how long must it be charged to proc a ground bounce instead of an emergency tech KD

Edited September 10, 2011 by Mascarpone

[Akira-Shiro]

Ok i see where ur not understanding,,, by bounce they mean EXACTLY LIKE A-11 they take a small bounce. Not a float animation like the hit from 2D and each hit causes a bounce & the final hit always ground stuns

[Mascarpone]

That makes more sense. I still think losing CON being undesirable is a fair statement though. Maybe, however, the meter change will make zoning/trapping a less taxing ordeal.

[Akira-Shiro]

Yea all our moves initial cost has been lowered,, however the repetition cost has been greatly increased. Cause i believe right now its like 20% increase,, im thinking now its going to be like 45% repeat cost.

[Mascarpone]

Well they said that "over all it's easier to use her in combos" which probably means she retains more HP from preasure/zoning, But I can't imagine they'd work us over that badly on meter. I'm cautiously optimistic that when it comes to using moves in combos it will balance out to roughly the same usage of meter when you take the average meter cost of zoning, catching -> combos. i -DO- however belive it will be nessecary to force them away to allow meter recovery more often, as opposed to trying to keep on top of them. Probably have to resort to hit -> oki -> maybe hit again and run.

So maybe in a way it will be good to have to end combos out of CON

[Akira-Shiro]

It does say that but the specifics clearly say "Overall gauge cost reduced, gauge depleation from repeated use is increased". Also i do believe ur misunderstanding

how nirvans gauge works, fuaco's cost is 1k if we use it again without deactivating her the next time it will cost 1.2k. This does not apply if we are using different

moves in combos. Like our 2D(1k)>j2c>5c>4D(1k)>66>5c>jb>j2c>jb>jb>jc>volante(1k)>5c>jb>j2c>jb>jb>jc>8D(1k) total nirvana gauge used 4k but if we do

8D(1k) air hit>5c>jb>jb>jc>8D(1.2k)>j2c>jb>jb>jc>8D>(1.5k) total ada cost 3.7k.

However after the patch its gonna still be 2D(1k)>j2c>5c>4D(1k)>66>5c>jb>j2c>jb>jb>jc>volante(1k)>5c>jb>j2c>jb>jb>jc>8D(1k) total nirvana gauge used 4k.

But 8D(1k) air hit>5c>jb>jb>jc>8D(1.5k)>j2c>jb>jb>jc>8D>(2.2k) total ada cost 4.7k

[Mascarpone]

I understand that. I don't see how it will be that big of a problem when it comes to combos. In CS1 the idea was always to use each move once for optimal damage (Except for volante because it had no repeat proration but that's another story). The only thing about CS2 that calls for repeating a move over and over is using the 3D reset which we won't have anyways. I don't take it as an over-all nerf so much as a tweak. Unless you are pressuring with [blah blah 6D]x n but really we shouldn't be doing that anyways. Infact if over-all meter cost is reduced, then optimal damage obtained by using a variety of nirvana's moves will be -less- meter intensive than looping juggles with 8D. the repeat-usage cost is really just Arksys throwing on yet another way to remove the unblockable loop set ups. In fact a very large portion of the changes have been anti-infinite and anti-loop oriented. jc from 6B gone(corner loop) j.2C once per jump (j.2Cj.B loop) 3D no longer forces standing + repeate move cost nerf (BnB unblockable reset loop) 6C no longer forces standing + Stagger (Hakumen-specific unblokcbale reset loop.)

If nothing else the meter change is probably over all a buff when you take into account this non-loop play style. As for 2/4D it remains to be seen how that goes. Still can't decide of they are good/bad things. Really need video footage.

[Akira-Shiro]

Thats what iv been trying to tell u its a buff lol its not a bad thing at all. Its not listed as a nerf either.

[Mascarpone]

I never said the meter was a nerf lol. the 3D and 6C are my biggest concerns, but if 3D leaves them with a decent ground stun it wont be much of an issue. 6C and 6B still bother me though. without the reset his Solo loops aren't -that- broken.

[Akira-Shiro]

Lol u need to remember its still a loop,, and arks hates loop.

[Mascarpone]

Then why did they design carl xD in CT all he was was loops.

[The Noble Clap]

lol, ahksis LOVES loops. Name one ahksis game without one.

[Akira-Shiro]

No ur making it sound as if they wanted them,, people just so happen to use them that way... Loops are not intended, its merely a mechanic flaw in the character

that they cant realy patch so easyly. Take a look at makoto's parry loop,, it was gone after the first few months of CS. However things like carls clap loop however were things that couldnt be fixed that easly, or Tao's taunt loop, or Noels Hida loop. After every game we need to come up with a new way to preform loops, CT carl

Nirvanas 8D would remain active even after carl was hit,, the purpose was because carls AA options were crappy so it wasnt something they could remove so easily. In CS we had the Volante loop, it wasnt that big of a deal yet it was removed. Tao taunt loop removed, With Noel they have been trying to get rid of the hida loop since day one but to no avail. They finaly got rid of it for good now. Arks gives characters new tools to use because when they remove loops they needed to remove a special attribute to a attack. That would be considered a nerf,, an in order to balance that out they give a buff. However the buff they just gave allowed the character to do a new loop. Its not intentional, but we are playing a 2D fighting game its hard to remove all loops.

But before anyone brings it up Street fighter doesnt have loops because there combo system is @ss compaired to BB, our fighting system is so complex that it is very hard to remove loop before they happen. All they can do is figure out what mechanic we are abusing in order to do the loops then remove it.

[JG]

I

Just to relieve some of the anxiety it is impossible for them to make 2D none combo-able, the locktest clearly says that they horizantal float has been increased, so this means that instead of them flying almost directly up then falling almost directly down. They go at an angle so there is a larger gap in between nirvana & the position the enemy will land. Making it harder for us to use a 4D combo after a 2D reset which is a nerf but not a big one. however at the some time if we were to do a 2D reset and we didnt have the meter for a 4D combo we would be kinda screwed because even if u wanted that 4k u deserve you would need to hold nirvanaa on and move her backwards so u could do a simple air combo into 8D all of which drains meter, with this change we will no longer need to keep her on and move her backwards because by the time our air combo is finished they will fall right infront of nirvana giving us that godlike jc 3D oki.

As for 4D it says that they fly higher in the air after being hit what we can assume it that they are talking about the second hit of 4D. Which means that after we forward dash they will still be in the air making 5c whiff which would be considered a nerf. However at the same time its a buff because after a 4D crossup the enemy would be to low to the ground and it would make it difficult to combo after. Since they float higher now that no longer becomes a problem. So yes both CAN be considered a nerf but i believe we are taking the term neft to the next level we could consider both of these to be reworks of a sort

If with the new 4]D[ we loose the ability to combo from that, for ex: 2]D[, j2C~allecancel, 5C, j.C, 4]D[, 5C pickup, etc. we will lose our max damaging combo option. That is a fact.

After a 4]D[ we can´t continue our combo, we should say good bye to 5K or more dmg combos. Also, why they will make harder to combo of 2]D[? eh? seriusly?.

I will say this, i like to be able to do 5K or more after a 2]D[ reset. Why? because i started to use Carl since CS1 and for that reason i learned j2.C allecan combos with Volante and 4]D[. Now in CS2, i use that knowledge and adapted it to CS2 creating a new type of CS1 mix CS2 combo, as result the damage was great and is very usable in actual match. For me, this is one of the only way to get the most dmg in a combo that is reliable. So? why i will want to lose that? and why i will exchange losing that type of combo only to get a better crossup with 4]D[? seriously what is the deal with that crossup it isnt good. Is way more better just crossup with 3]D[.

This is the combo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXRqQI5IA_I

The sad thing, is that now we are starting to loose our options, even some that aren´t amazing. This is bad, because one of Carl streng is that he always have an option for doing good dmg or crossup.

[ReachForTheEnd]

Okay something that is confusing me. If Nirvana is on one side and Carl is on the other do their inputs differ depending on the side they are on?

[SolarMisae]

Okay something that is confusing me. If Nirvana is on one side and Carl is on the other do their inputs differ depending on the side they are on?

No. The inputs depend on Carl's location, not nee-san's.

[YukiBlue]

Hmm. I wanted to learn Carl, He is one of the only few I cannot play.

Y THIS BORD SO SMALL?

I can't find any BNB's or anything

[Mascarpone]

I didn't even mean the throw loop lol. Even the basic ground BnB was [2a 5a 5b 5c 6d j.c] x2 and with his absurdly limited Gatling options and j.B's horibble hit box there wasn't much else you could do on a basic level. summon + IAD resets sure but really, he was a Loop charachter in CT. It just so happened that all but one of his loops sucked xD

CT Carl was i think upon original design supposed to be about simple loops. That's my opinion.

[Akira-Shiro]

If with the new 4]D[ we loose the ability to combo from that, for ex: 2]D[, j2C~allecancel, 5C, j.C, 4]D[, 5C pickup, etc. we will lose our max damaging combo option. That is a fact.

After a 4]D[ we can´t continue our combo, we should say good bye to 5K or more dmg combos. Also, why they will make harder to combo of 2]D[? eh? seriusly?.

I will say this, i like to be able to do 5K or more after a 2]D[ reset. Why? because i started to use Carl since CS1 and for that reason i learned j2.C allecan combos with Volante and 4]D[. Now in CS2, i use that knowledge and adapted it to CS2 creating a new type of CS1 mix CS2 combo, as result the damage was great and is very usable in actual match. For me, this is one of the only way to get the most dmg in a combo that is reliable. So? why i will want to lose that? and why i will exchange losing that type of combo only to get a better crossup with 4]D[? seriously what is the deal with that crossup it isnt good. Is way more better just crossup with 3]D[.

This is the combo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXRqQI5IA_I

The sad thing, is that now we are starting to loose our options, even some that aren´t amazing. This is bad, because one of Carl streng is that he always have an option for doing good dmg or crossup.

Not nesscerly with this new 3D it would be possible to still get 5k,, what ur failing to add is our new 6C & 3D both of which are now alot better with more combo potential. Think about this 2D>j2c-allecan>5c>jb>j2c(3D)>jc>3D>charged 6C>5c(ada keeps them from flying far after 6c)>volante>j2c alle>jb>j2c>jb>jb>jc>8D im almost certain that this would give 5k if not more. Right now ur just thinking of carl with all the 'nerfs' yes he would be crappy. But please do keep in mind that even though they were reworked to the point where we find them useless now, doesnt mean that they are truly worthless.

Also the new 4D on the locktest doesnt realy say its harder to combo with that is just speculation on our part, in all actuality i believe its a buff in every way. If the untech time was changed then it would have been mentioned in the test. However it wasnt so we can assume that it is compleatly untechable till they reach the ground just like the majority of Adas moves. But JG ur 2D>4D combo no longer works because we are not as close to ada after the 2D. It says the horizantal trajectory was changed so im assuming instead of 2D>j2c allecan we got to 2D>44>j2c allecan in order to reposition ourselves which would put us just a little our of reach for the 4D but this is me speculating again. So for now lets just think of our 4D acting alot like Brio in terms of how the enemy floats. Im pretty sure they will hit the invisible wall just a little higher. Cause even during the 4D combo if ur timing isnt correct carl will do jc>4D and they will fly into carl. With this new 4D it removes that problem all together ^-^ so stop being so pessimistic, hello we main carl and so far we have been a ok.

Also 2a>5a>2a>5a>5b>5C>6D>66>ja FTMFW O.O