[CS2] Iron Tager General Discussion

[A.X.I.S.]

Tager gets the same damage in the corner as he does mid screen.

[Mucky]

Tager gets the same damage in the corner as he does mid screen.

Yeah, I know... I just like it for the psychological effect.

[Darlos9D]

You still kinda wanna keep them in the corner though...

I miss 2C 4D just for the magnetism though. And the tick hits you could get if you delayed it just a little.

[Osuna]

I'm itching to try it on a Rachel player for the lulz.

Also, I am extremely salty about losing the 2C>5D gatling. That was great for keeping someone in the corner. Now we lose that... in a game which hypes up the corner as the only thing that matters? GAAAAAAAUGH.

I can't wrap my mind about some of the changes done to Tager.

I just tried it on a rachel player and she hit me before the active frames. With a projectile. The projectile armor doesn't last all the way to the active frames. sadface. 2C>4D and 6A jump cancel are hard for me to go on without.

Now my game is all lows, throws, and forcing them to barrier block a lot in the air. The air unblockable buff to 6A has helped me 30 times more than the hella late armor.

[Darlos9D]

Yeah, signs seem to point towards using 6A as a weird kind of anti-air more than anything else. But yeah, I'm still getting used to not being able to jump cancel it. Though maybe I can do some gimmicky bullshit with it and cancel it into 720 for a tick throw now.

[Osuna]

Yeah, signs seem to point towards using 6A as a weird kind of anti-air more than anything else. But yeah, I'm still getting used to not being able to jump cancel it. Though maybe I can do some gimmicky bullshit with it and cancel it into 720 for a tick throw now.

I could do that in CS1 too and it was way more surprising back then. Also the magnetism changes on J.D and 5D seem to ruin way more of my game than what they give in return. There's so many ways I used to get mag that I have to do without now. I'm not really sure how to do it anymore.

[Koopa_Klawz]

well i guess i'll tell how my first day experience with cs2 tager went.

his 6a is shit don't rely on that.

rachel and jin got worse

idk about hakumen yet so i'll need to fight him more but i think it's the same.

i somehow did j.A (CH) > j.B > J.C > AC > x

the feeling of the game is a bit different.

that's all for now.

[A.X.I.S.]

Hahaha.

Guys I forgot 1 small detail.

You can't special cancel 5A into 360 in CS2.

This explains why if you try to do 360s from 5A normally you will super jump instead.

Yeah have fun relearning the timing.

[natearistata]

oh good, it wasn't me completely being awful then yay

[Darlos9D]

I could do that in CS1 too and it was way more surprising back then. Also the magnetism changes on J.D and 5D seem to ruin way more of my game than what they give in return. There's so many ways I used to get mag that I have to do without now. I'm not really sure how to do it anymore.

Yeah, I'm starting to realize how much I really did use jD and 5D, and how they're totally not working AT ALL the way they used to. I'm starting to think I won't be using either of the much at all.

One of Nate's recent videos involves a hilarious moment involving 5D's new pull: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo37FK2I7UU&feature=feedu#t=11m24s

I laughed so fucking hard at that. SO MUCH FOR IT NOT PULLING ATTACKS RIGHT INTO OUR FACES.

Regarding 5A canceling: eh, I kinda need to quit spamming 5A and learn to 5A 5B instead. Seems more useful, especially since 5B is air unblockable now.

[Astaroth136]

Hahaha.

Guys I forgot 1 small detail.

You can't special cancel 5A into 360 in CS2.

This explains why if you try to do 360s from 5A normally you will super jump instead.

Yeah have fun relearning the timing.

Gah! I tried to tell you this last week.

It can be helpful sometimes though. It stops purple grabs from happening off of 5A, but it also stops our control of catching dp mashers.

[A.X.I.S.]

Gah! I tried to tell you this last week.

It can be helpful sometimes though. It stops purple grabs from happening off of 5A, but it also stops our control of catching dp mashers.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!

Seriously I can still do purple 360B's easily they just made me do the input slower.

And yes you did Astaroth but I never noticed it at first because I rarely had a need to tick 360.

Mainly because netplayer's do not want to block.

[Hitage]

Is it just me, or is mu-12 significantly more of a problem than in cs1?

[Darlos9D]

Maybe my opponent was just dumb, but it seems like her 5C->6C blockstring isn't solid anymore. Unless it was never solid to begin with. In any case, it seems like I couldn't just sledge through the 6C in CS1 without instant blocking, but now I can in CS2.

[naikou]

One of Nate's recent videos involves a hilarious moment involving 5D's new pull: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo37F...feedu#t=11m24s

I lol'd. Rachel wasn't even magnetized before the 5D either, hahah.

Goddamn it, lack of 5D and j.D pull is killing my Tager experience. I don't even know what to do with magnetism anymore. I was hoping 6A super armor would be amazing, but it's way too freaking slow to be anything but a gimmick.

[Osuna]

Pessimism wins cs2 so hard. Way harder than cs1. As expected about 90% of my gameplan (Not that my gameplan was amazing, but still) no longer works and is replaced by gimmicks. So, what is anyone doing for magnetism now? Without the old 2C>4D, and J.D/5D I find myself not being able to hold mag very long. And when I do have it, it seems to be meaningless outside of 360A range.

[A.X.I.S.]

Since I have a weird Tager the game didn't ruin my play style at all, they just changed how I used 6A which isn't something I worry about, I found ways to make 6A become a nuisance but I haven't fully fleshed it out since I have been playing Platinum for most of my time in CS2.

To put it simply if you rely on IB 720 your screwed.

If you rely on jump cancel 6A then your bummed.

If you rely heavily on 5D/J.D pull then your fucked.

How did I get around this:

I IB a lot and still IB 720 air pokes. (It works on most characters.)

Use 6A as a risky mix up tool, first make people scared of it because it can be scary.

6A>4D is tight, 6A>2C beats out jump outs but can be DP through, 6A>3C can be low invul through if the 6A is IB'd can but it beats jumps, and 6A>6B is a overhead which is good for the meter and positioning.

Please do not forget 6A special cancel's into 360 and if you still have trouble with building fear for 6A then RC 2B them, let them fear you when you have meter which is something I will go into in a bit and why I do strange things.

5D/J.D was a shock to me, I use 5D to pull people in and make the illusion that I am unsafe then I either cover it with more stupid or I throw out a poke to stuff them.

j.D is great for not getting slapped by AA's if spaced right, at least in my experience.

Now on to the whole meter thing, since CS2 is a new game and Tager is troll I RC anything into anything, it has not failed yet since I am really good at conditioning people off the get go with how I run things.

I RC high level pokes to make people scared of me, couple that with my need to guard break people and you create a giant whirl pool of rage and Tager hate.

Sadly this strat will not last forever.

I hate playing random but this game forces me to do so this time around.

Amazingly I have more than enough meter to 720.

[naikou]

So, what is anyone doing for magnetism now? Without the old 2C>4D, and J.D/5D I find myself not being able to hold mag very long. And when I do have it, it seems to be meaningless outside of 360A range.

Good to know I'm not the only one who feels that way. I used to use 5D/j.D a lot to keep people magnetized and fish for counter hits, but now people can just walk backwards and you can't re-magnetize without doing some dangerous shit like 2D -> RC or s.j -> j.c -> j.D

I've been trying to work in 6A more... it's got some decent mixup options on block. 6A -> 3C for a low, 6A -> slight pause -> 360 for tick throw, 6A -> 6B for lol slow overhead, 6A -> 4D for magnetism. Maybe you could somehow work in the 6A delay super armor if you train them well enough? idk.

I've stuck with Tager so far because he's so much fun, but I'm having a hard time convincing myself to play a character who both sucks and is no longer fun due to lack of magnetism shennanigans.

[Waks]

I've also been trying to cancel moves into XYH, then cancelling XYH into 720. But it won't let you can someone confirm? Im able to do XYH into 720 just fine, but if Im gonna gattling into XYH, then into 720, then somehow it doesn't come out.

[Coopa]

I thought maybe putting in some Tager input might help some folks here.

It took me some time to get used to Tager's changes--actually, it took me time just to figure out the IB nerfs. That's what really affected me. Pretty much, I rarely IB into 720 anymore, unless the opponent is pushing their luck waaaaaay too much, but I've found that even Tager needs to barrier guard out of pressure now. People just don't respect his IB 720 anymore (maybe because it simply can't come out).

I still don't really know Tager's BBCS2 specific combos, but for the most part, everything old seems to be fine to use. I just end on 2d a lot, since Tager corner pressure is more or less ideal.

5d/2d/j.d have balls magnetism pull now. I just throw 5d out in an attempt to catch people at bad footsie ranges now. J.d, I rarely use unless I've jumped in barrier guarded x amount of times, and it's about time they've respected an air attack. 2d isn't so good even when the opponent is magnetized, unless you're sure it's going to hit them. Post 2d, I just rapid 6a, but all I really get from the distance I'm doing it in is 6a->3c.

Post - Gadget Finger: I still don't like gadget finger oki. It gives the opponent too much time to think, so unless I have meter, or unless I have a read, I don't like to put them near my face where they can mash, counterhit me, deal more damage, and put me in the corner. If I ever gadget finger though, and I'm without a clue, I like to default back to jump barrier guard or holding 6a. I don't really know the mechanics of 6a charge too well though, but certain small characters (like Plat) jump right over me and then I'm punished.

720 as a tick throw seems to be more important now than 720 as an IB reversal. I've counted how many times I've landed a 720, and rarely are they off of ib's now. I usually use it as a footsie sort of tool, whiff cr. a walk 720. The pull seems a lot stronger this game, so maybe that's why I'm landing it so often. That, or people just don't respect the range or something.

Tager seems to be an overall better footsie character, and due to the decrease in overall damage from the cast, I think he can do well in most matchups, but...

There are those matchups that you really don't want to play. I seriously say Tager players need to learn a sub cause Hazama, Arakune, and Carl are going to give you nightmares.

[Hitage]

Good insight Coopa, I was feeling a bit discouraged with Tager's changes but I just have to adjust how I play. You say tager can do well in most match-ups, would you say he has more good match-ups than before? I could understand why you think that since most of the cast has had their damage decreased. I currently feel like his worst match-ups are

Hazama: His damage output has decreased but he still has really good ways to keep tager out and can easily win by time out.

Arakune: This was always a terrible match-up at least for me, but I honestly can't tell if its gotten worse. I would really like some insight here. At least now we can get gadget finger off of Bsledge.

Mu-12: I feel like this match-up has gotten a worse. This was always a bad match-up if I recall correctly except now Mu-12 now has longer and more damaging combos.

Lambda: This has gotten a bit better right? I've played a few lambdas and it seems like she can't do as much damage as before. Sledge follow-up seems pretty useful here. But it seems she can still keep Tager out at least decently.

Rachel: In cs1 this match-up was actually in Tager's favor. I've only played against 2 rachels so far, but obviously she's a better character. So how has this match-up changed? I did ok against the Rachels but I had to work a lot harder lulz

Bang: Bang has been a bad match-up for Tager since CT, sadly I haven't played any good bangs yet so I'm not sure how much this match-up has changed

off the top of my head, those were some bad match-ups that came to me that I was hoping to get opinions on and insight.

[A.X.I.S.]

Let me help you with this Hitage.

Hazama: Annoying screw this guy, you have to K.O Hazama but he only has to touch you once and run away for 60+ seconds and he wins.

Arakune: Its the same in it being bad but we can still luck out with stupid.

I remember getting cursed 3 times in one round and then lost by time out, also recall being cursed twice and still won.

Mu: Boring match that your gonna lose if you are not on your A game, probably gonna lose if you are on your A game anyway.

Remember always safe jump j.B the DP, hell remember the DP is not air unblockable.

Lambda: Much easier than before since she doesn't have a troll DP, get in kill her.

Rachel: Picture CT rachel but toned down.

Bang: Always a hard match up, if you don't know how to block overheads then you are not winning this.

[Coopa]

Snip because this is going to be a long post

This post is finished for now. Posts afterwards will be in response

Well, if we are on the topic of good matchups for Tager, I will need to talk about why Tager is bad.

I think Tager is low tier for different reasons now. Previously, it was because characters who were good (Bang and Litchi) out prioritized him and kept him under constant pressure and did more damage. Tager in CS1 had to resort to amazing reads to get rewarded whereas other characters could stick to a concrete game plan and wait for their opponents to mess up.

Now, in CS2, Tager doesn't have to go out of his way to make a read. If you expect your opponent to jump, you don't have to yomi collider them to bring them down. You can resort to a safer option of 5c. Even if they barrier guarded your 5c you can continue further into more pressure. Arcsys also tried to lower Tager's high guessing game by giving him charged 6a, but at the moment, the biggest issue with charged 6a is its startup time. You can get hit out of the super armor BEFORE it activates, which doesn't help Tager players at all. They get mashed out all the time. Overall, Arcsys made Tager a safer character, but he still has problems with his oki and against pressure.

***Tager players who understand risk reward will go farther than Tager players who play a very gungho style because of the new mechanics in CS2 (nerfed magnetism properties, lowered IB, etc.)

So, if Tager is overall a safer character to play, why isn't he higher on the tier list? Well...

The IB nerf. For a lot of the cast, this won't be a problem because their fastest normal (5a) come out in 6 frames. For tager, your fastest whatever is a 720 and your fastest normal is 8 frames (5a). Finding a blockstring with an 8 frame gap is going to be incredibly rare in CS2.

Frankly, don't bother. You need to now barrier guard to push your opponent out, find some space, and then poke them out of their ideal range. When they are out of their ideal range, THEN you can retaliate, but Tager in CS2 needs breathing room, whereas in CS1, he could force his way out with an IB atomic collider, or IB 720.

However, what can Tager do if there isn't a gap in the block string large enough for him to breathe?

Nothing. Yay!

This is why certain matchups are as bad as they are: Arakune (maybe 7-3 to 8-2 bad), Carl (same as Arakune), Hazama (same as Arakune, but bad for different reasons).

-------------------------------------------------

Matchups:

Taokaka:

I think the Taokaka versus Tager matchup has changed drastically. Not so much because of Tager, but mostly because of Taokaka. At worse, this matchup is .5 in Taokaka's favor and that's it. It pretty much comes down to you defending well and predicting the followup they are going to try on you, so to do well in this matchup, you need to know her drive and jump cancels. From there, you can yomi collider, jump throw, 2c, 2a, backdash + 360, etc.

Mu:

Yeah, sure, this matchup got worse from CS1. In CS1, I thought it was fairly even. The Tager player just needed to be patient, IB certain unsafe normals and slowly push Mu into the corner.

Same concept in BBCS2, except unsafe normals became safe even in IB. Her 2b used to be IB punished with 360B. Now, I think you can punish with 720, but don't quote me on that. Her 5c has good zoning range, so when you're in her 5c, range, don't press buttons unless you're at frame advantage. You don't use spark bolt in this matchup as much as you THREATEN to use spark bolt. Pushing Mu into the corner severely limits her options. If she tries to dash in and hit you, 5c stops her. If she tries to SRK you, she might whiff because she needs to dash in to be in range. If she blocks your 5c, it means you're in your ideal range, and you can cancel into 5d (but don't press anything afterwards). If she tries to dash out, you can on reaction, atomic collider and bring her back in. This matchup isn't really that bad though. It's at worse 6-4 in her favor, or 5.5 in her favor. The biggest problem for Mu is the moment you touch spark bolt, she needs to respect you a lot. If the Mu player doesn't respect your spark bolt, they don't know the matchup, so punish them for it.

Rachel: I thought Rachel was pretty annoying in CS1. She had tools to run away for a fairly long amount of time, and it seemed the only way to punish her was to predict her projectile blockstring. I don't know them from memory, but whenever I saw a Rachel transition from a ground normal (usually an umbrella normal) to a projectile, I'd IB the normal and sledge the projectile. That was my usual gameplan when they tried to pressure me. In cs2, that gap doesn't exist anymore, and instead, you have to do other things to play on an even ground. First, barrier guard her out of her range. If you do this, you limit her instant jab overhead. It doesn't lead to astounding damage, but it's nice to know she can't do that. Get some space, and when you expect her to do an air normal at you, 6a and hold (if they are magnetized). On reaction, look for Tager to glow red, then let go. Don't release prior to it, unless you think they will get cheeky and try to throw you or they won't do anything period. If you ever have meter, and a Rachel is trying to zone you out, go ahead and stay a little bit out of B sledge distance (because then they will think it's safe to throw something), then predict the projectile. If she throws it out at you, B sledge:

If you did it as a projectile comes out, sledge follow up.

If she didn't do it, block.

If she is near the end of her projectile, you can sledge follow up and rapid cancel for more pressure.

In my opinion, this matchup is similar to Mu, except with a projectile mind game. You don't mess with Mu's projectiles, but you can sometimes mess with Rachel's. To do well in this matchup, you need to push Rachel out of her scissor range (5b????) and into your 5c range. From here, you can push her into the corner. The range in between 5b and 5c is what I call the reactable MAGNETIZED range. If Rachel is magnetized, then you look at what she does and react to it. If she dashes in, 6a hold. If she does nothing 5c, 5d. If she jumps, atomic collider. If she projectiles, sledge (although this is hard in my opinion) if she back dashes, spark bolt (if you have it). Sometimes you get nothing off her backdash, but that's okay. She just put herself closer to the corner. Overall, I guess this matchup is like 5.5 or 6-4 her favor?

Okay, so, uh, I've only listed bad matchups so far. What gives, right?

Here are some of Tager's good matchups (in my opinion):

Ragna: 6-4

Tsubaki: 6-4

Noel (yes, you read that right): 6-4

Makoto (maaaaaaaybe. I really need to figure this one out a bit more, but I will try to explain later)

Platinum (probably even or in Tager's favor. Watch Akira versus Hakuma Doushi SP?)

You can call me out on any of these, since I'm still learning CS2, but that's totally fine. We can share information and get a better grasp on things.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Coopa

[Astaroth136]

I'll tell you why 6A sucks. Even when you bait things with it, the opponent can go flying behind Tager if they're magnetized and punish him. This has happened with Ragna's dp, some of Plat's moves, Bang's j.D, and a few others that I can't remember.

The problem I'm seeing is that people can now run from Tager even while magnetized. 5D/4D/2D doesn't prevent this. Collider doesn't help when they're just dashing or walking backwards. 6A will just make you eat a low or a dp.

I would've liked if IB'ing gave Tager the same frame advantages as CS1, while everyone else got CS2 IB status. If not that, at least make it so that IB'ing builds spark bolt meter too. At this point, IB'ing only builds meter, but what good is that meter if you can't even 720 punish as effectively any more?

[shindavid07]

Arakune doesn't seem that bad of a matchup , just block real well...would say 6.5-3.5 in ara's favor...

The matchup with makoto is alright but i really think it's in makoto's favor by a small margin. It's only because u can land 4.9k off a 360b>2b>ac>followup...without the micro-walk. She can still do a lot though, mix-ups, etc.

Platinum can't do much mid-screen so i wanna say it's an even matchup...if not Platinum's favor 5.5-4.5...

I still see Gadget Finger a useful tool but it's only because i like the extra 5-6 heat...