Manta Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Or you could do what I often do and replace GF in combos with 5B > 4D because eh.
WolfCrimson Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) I wonder if Mori was asked if Tager would become better in his interview in Revelations? Also, I hope ASW maybe release a teeensy balance patch for console and arcade with release of CS2+ on PSVita (PSV for short), dealing with Tager and maybe top-tiers (like maybe giving noel's muzzle flitter less damage and bad P2 proration, but making it throw invulnerable in its start-up, and making Makoto's 2D have the same blowback effect as Noel's Spring Raid etc etc). Also, expanding on Ve's F suggestion: That would be the best course. Giving it more frame advantage. Something like +5, so that as soon as they recover they'd have to worry about being 360B'd the very next frame. Edited June 20, 2011 by WolfCrimson
Isorropia Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Also, expanding on Ve's F suggestion: That would be the best course. Giving it more frame advantage. Something like +5, so that as soon as they recover they'd have to worry about being 360B'd the very next frame. Throw would go pink. Throws are techable until they've been out of hitstun (which GF is) until....er...5 or 6 frames after, something like that. BB is HELLA lenient with escaping tic throws. >.>
Manta Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 You have 4 frames of purple throw after they land from GF, meaning an ASAP 360B will purple even now (as does 720, duh). 360A would never purple unless you RC'd. Does mean if you want a reasonably safe followup to GF, try B+C. If they jump out, it's recovered too quick for them to react to (unlike 360B), if they push buttons, you get a throwcounter and if they just tech the purple throw, then you're just back to neutral. Am I right in thinking that the throw tech distance you get is good for a 5D poke after? Haven't really tried.
Osuna Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 You have 4 frames of purple throw after they land from GF, meaning an ASAP 360B will purple even now (as does 720, duh). 360A would never purple unless you RC'd. Does mean if you want a reasonably safe followup to GF, try B+C. If they jump out, it's recovered too quick for them to react to (unlike 360B), if they push buttons, you get a throwcounter and if they just tech the purple throw, then you're just back to neutral. Am I right in thinking that the throw tech distance you get is good for a 5D poke after? Haven't really tried. Not really, it's more of an issue of whatever go to move they have usually being faster and better though, rather than us being too far away. In your analysis though, 5A is a safer and usually better option than BC in those situations. Also on all of the talk of the proration build up and them recovering super fast at the 5A, that would make a strong tick throw if they just un nerf 5A so we can cancel it into throws again.
Isorropia Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 You can already get that effect if you spend meter though. Really long combo > GF RC 6A > faster than normal throw is one of my favourite resets, hitstun decay allows you to throw a lot earlier than people expect.
Manta Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Surely you'd just go for the B Driver if you were going to do that, Normal throw's for the unsure.
Isorropia Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Surely you'd just go for the B Driver if you were going to do that, Normal throw's for the unsure. Er...yeah, that's what I do. I assumed that was what Osuna was referring to since 5A still cancels to B+C, but not to 360s. And 6A > B+C isn't possible. >.>
Manta Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Not really, it's more of an issue of whatever go to move they have usually being faster and better though, rather than us being too far away. In your analysis though, 5A is a safer and usually better option than BC in those situations. Also on all of the talk of the proration build up and them recovering super fast at the 5A, that would make a strong tick throw if they just un nerf 5A so we can cancel it into throws again. 5A can still be cancelled into normal throw according to frame data. It's.... something I guess. On another note, has anyone had a loot at the possibility of .... 5D (RC) > 360B to catch the stagger recovery sweet spot?
Osuna Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 5A can still be cancelled into normal throw according to frame data. It's.... something I guess. On another note, has anyone had a loot at the possibility of .... 5D (RC) > 360B to catch the stagger recovery sweet spot?That's a very bad idea because they can vary the tech timing quite a lot, and you're looking for a 3 frame window. That's like FRCing your Opponents moves. It would take a fair amount of effort to be able to do it right for the earliest possible tech and the counter is as easy as waiting 3 or more frames since you Can't throw it on reaction. And 3 frames is short enough that if the guy wasn't timing it right or mashing hard enough he would counter your timing by accident. 5D 22Dwhiff gets your something like +4 though at the end of the stagger recovery, and no purple throws on early techs, if you're going to go ahead and assume that anyway. There's more lenience with timing and you're not blowing 50 meter on a gimmick. In this case if their timing was a couple frames off or they didn't mash perfectly, instead of wasting 50 meter you have a shot at hitting the sweet spot, and even if it was so off that both would purple throw, one of them saves 50 heat.
Manta Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 That's a very bad idea because they can vary the tech timing quite a lot, and you're looking for a 3 frame window. That's like FRCing your Opponents moves. It would take a fair amount of effort to be able to do it right for the earliest possible tech and the counter is as easy as waiting 3 or more frames since you Can't throw it on reaction. And 3 frames is short enough that if the guy wasn't timing it right or mashing hard enough he would counter your timing by accident. 5D 22Dwhiff gets your something like +4 though at the end of the stagger recovery, and no purple throws on early techs, if you're going to go ahead and assume that anyway. There's more lenience with timing and you're not blowing 50 meter on a gimmick. In this case if their timing was a couple frames off or they didn't mash perfectly, instead of wasting 50 meter you have a shot at hitting the sweet spot, and even if it was so off that both would purple throw, one of them saves 50 heat. I didn't think you could do 22D unless they've been knocked down at some point in the combo, and if they have, I'd like so see how you'd make 5D stagger someone without a GF RC
Osuna Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) I didn't think you could do 22D unless they've been knocked down at some point in the combo, and if they have, I'd like so see how you'd make 5D stagger someone without a GF RCI had assumed that was the situation we were talking about. Since that's the situation that can be forced and telegraphs the mix up to encourage a timely tech. I've almost never seen someone quick tech a random 5D, that somehow normal hit someone with it's shitty mag, long start up and near inability to be comboed into. If you hit them out of something and it's not a counterhit, odds are it was a movement option that put them airborn. (Like seriously, what is the opponent doing standing there 24 frames without blocking, jumping, attacking, or backdashing?). I see a lot of blue beats when it Does hit too (Maybe because someone being absent minded enough to get hit by that is also not the sharpest on teching 1st frame possible), but that's just my experience. It's not like I've seen every tager vid out there. It doesn't seem like it is worth even thinking about to me though. The RC tech trap would be especially wasteful (And more difficult to time on top of that) too, since the RC would give you a combo with pretty good damage. if you waited just a little for the late mag pull you might be able to combo from pretty far away too. Edited June 21, 2011 by Osuna
Manta Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 It just occurs to me how else we got screwed in the CS2 patch: Where the hell's our wallbound arcsys? Having it on forward throw or air hit 5/4/2D would've been kinda nice.
A.X.I.S. Posted June 21, 2011 Author Posted June 21, 2011 Tager doesn't need wallbound. Even if we had it our combo rate would turn it to crap. Although it would be nice if 5D wall bound on air hit but again we wouldn't be able to pick it back up.
Manta Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Tager doesn't need wallbound. Even if we had it our combo rate would turn it to crap. Although it would be nice if 5D wall bound on air hit but again we wouldn't be able to pick it back up. Would make some decent oki though if we just let them drop and either 5B them near the floor or just let them fall.
A.X.I.S. Posted June 21, 2011 Author Posted June 21, 2011 I'd love it if 5B had more untech time, so I can always get a punish if I stagger into 5B and catch them airborne.
Manta Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 It would also mean ...3C, 5B > 5C > 6A > 623C... would be legit without an FC.
A.X.I.S. Posted June 21, 2011 Author Posted June 21, 2011 Manta you know how amazing that is? It would mean 3C at max range will always get damage since 5B always connects at that range. it would also give us a stronger BnB. 5A>5B>3C>5B>5C>6A>623C>whatever you want. Also if 5B had more hitstun it can combo into 2C at point blank making it all the better. Manta why you get my hopes up man?
Manta Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 It's quite deliberately not the case though. Don't you think it's odd that the untech time of 5B is ONE FRAME shorter than the startup of 5C? Equally, 6C starts up 2 frames slower than 5C's untech. It's like they were designing FC combos into Tager just to taunt him.
A.X.I.S. Posted June 21, 2011 Author Posted June 21, 2011 Well then they know how to antagonize a player base don't they?
FlyingVe Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Now presenting for the purposes of beating a dead horse, discussion, and general whining. My newest Tager wish list. 1)5f 5A, 7F 2A 2)Taller 2A hitbox 3)13F 5C 4)Taller 5C hitbox 5)60% character rate (with proration changes for general damage boost/balance 6)8 active frames on 4D 7)Remove 720C 8)Add standalone terra-break (think makoto's BBS) 9)360B 4F startup 10)360B is RC-able 11)Hammer causes untechable knockdown on non-CH (instead of bounce) 12)Spark Blot projectile invul on startup 13) 22D causes stagger state 14)Double Jump 15)6A Jump-Cancelable 16) 2D Doesn't undergo recovery on impact (like Tsubaki's shield Rush) 17) 2D is -6 at point blank 18) 2C>4D returns I'm probably forgetting some but this is what I was thinking the last week. Also, some of these are more significant than they initially seem. I will be glad to explain anything, and some of it might be dumb. Feel free to inform me if I haven't thought it through.
toanenadiz Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Number 12 would make the Lambda match-up a lot more boring.
FlyingVe Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Number 12 would make the Lambda match-up a lot more boring. Yeah, but I'm sick of Tager's one useful anti-projectile move gets beaten by projectiles. That's actually one of the tamest of my suggestions.
Isorropia Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Number 12 would make the Lambda match-up a lot more boring. Uh, currently the matchup is as boring as it can get. Tager has literally no options to approach lambda, or make her come to him. His best shot, spark bolt, will in most cases be CH on startup from all the swords that lambda is throwing from full screen with impunity.
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