toanenadiz Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Yeah, but I'm sick of Tager's one useful anti-projectile move gets beaten by projectiles. That's actually one of the tamest of my suggestions. I can see where you are coming from. I'm just not going to like it. Uh, currently the matchup is as boring as it can get. Tager has literally no options to approach lambda, or make her come to him. His best shot, spark bolt, will in most cases be CH on startup from all the swords that lambda is throwing from full screen with impunity. And cutting down Lambda's options isn't going to make the match-up anymore interesting.
FlyingVe Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Also, I suggested stand alone terra break which would let Tager use his invul for anti-zoning. I tried to make Tager's meter use more varied and useful.
FlyingVe Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 What is the point of number 17? To make it fair. If you space the move right (with my Tsubaki buff) you could be at significant +frames so it could no longer be -1 on block. I figure a Tager should be punished for using the move stupidly. Though something like -4 could also work requiring an IB.
A.X.I.S. Posted June 22, 2011 Author Posted June 22, 2011 If Tager's 2D had 17F start up it would be hella useful in closing the gap.
Isorropia Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 And cutting down Lambda's options isn't going to make the match-up anymore interesting. You're confusing whether a matchup is interesting with whether it's easy for you to win. If tager could approach (with the threat of an anti-projectile spark) then the matchup would become more interesting because as tager approaches both characters would be using moves in their current arsenal to beat the opponent. This is in contrast to tager having no approach, and lambda having full access to her entire arsenal. So uh...yeah, it would be objectively more interesting if both people got to play in the matchup. Overstating the badness of the matchup a bit, but if you don't see how letting tager do more then hold back makes it more interesting then....:/
FlyingVe Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Seriously, I'm curios what some of you think of my ideas, I put alot of thought into some of them.
toanenadiz Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 You're confusing whether a matchup is interesting with whether it's easy for you to win. That isn't what I meant...Just like how 214D and 236D can't be used against a ground Tager, Lambda would lose more options if spark bolt had projectile invincibility at start-up. Lambda's would probably resort to a lot more running away(if you can believe it), which I would find less interesting. And you can't really throw around objectively in the same sentence as interesting because it is an opinion.
Isorropia Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Seriously, I'm curios what some of you think of my ideas, I put alot of thought into some of them. They're pretty decent overall, one thing though is...2D already works like that. I just tested in training mode, you can indeed get frame adv from it by hitting from further away. Frame data agrees, just says it inflicts 34f blockstun with 10 possible active frames. Would definitely love it to be faster on startup though. Also love the hammer suggestion, in situations like footsies vs ragna where you can get CH 5B>236A>236A, it would be awesome to get oki from that rather then let them airtech away. Definitely agree on taller 5C hitbox, when I try to use it to stuff jumps (esp. when I have them in corner) it just doesn't hit and that makes me sad.
FlyingVe Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 They're pretty decent overall, one thing though is...2D already works like that. I just tested in training mode, you can indeed get frame adv from it by hitting from further away. Frame data agrees, just says it inflicts 34f blockstun with 10 possible active frames. Would definitely love it to be faster on startup though. Also love the hammer suggestion, in situations like footsies vs ragna where you can get CH 5B>236A>236A, it would be awesome to get oki from that rather then let them airtech away. Definitely agree on taller 5C hitbox, when I try to use it to stuff jumps (esp. when I have them in corner) it just doesn't hit and that makes me sad. -My thoughts on the 2D were to make it easier to do so and let the Tager player exploit their spacing better. -The Hammer change also means that we get another hit in out BnB and that 5D>236A>236A>22D is useful.
toanenadiz Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 My Tager friend said he liked all of the changes except the one about removing 720C. But he figured the other changes make up for it. And he wants to ask why you only gave Tager a double jump and not an air dash also.
FlyingVe Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 My Tager friend said he liked all of the changes except the one about removing 720C. But he figured the other changes make up for it. And he wants to ask why you only gave Tager a double jump and not an air dash also. I tried to replace the 720 with a faster 360B. In most games things that are safe against other characters are not against grapplers. This would accomplish that. The 720C always seemed like a gimmicky and overly random attack. It's applications represent everything wrong with Tager. Having a really good command grab (360B) that you could rapid for similar damage is more dynamic in my opinion. I pulled this idea straight from Potemkin. As for the Double jump and not airdash, Tager is a grappler, he should not be very mobile. The double jump is just to give him an air option instead of just being helpless like he is now. Keep away should be effective against Tager, he just should have some options to approach.
A.X.I.S. Posted June 22, 2011 Author Posted June 22, 2011 Now presenting for the purposes of beating a dead horse, discussion, and general whining. My newest Tager wish list. 1)5f 5A, 7F 2A 2)Taller 2A hitbox 3)13F 5C 4)Taller 5C hitbox 5)60% character rate (with proration changes for general damage boost/balance 6)8 active frames on 4D 7)Remove 720C 8)Add standalone terra-break (think makoto's BBS) 9)360B 4F startup 10)360B is RC-able 11)Hammer causes untechable knockdown on non-CH (instead of bounce) 12)Spark Blot projectile invul on startup 13) 22D causes stagger state 14)Double Jump 15)6A Jump-Cancelable 16) 2D Doesn't undergo recovery on impact (like Tsubaki's shield Rush) 17) 2D is -6 at point blank 18) 2C>4D returns I'm probably forgetting some but this is what I was thinking the last week. Also, some of these are more significant than they initially seem. I will be glad to explain anything, and some of it might be dumb. Feel free to inform me if I haven't thought it through. Seriously, I'm curios what some of you think of my ideas, I put alot of thought into some of them. Ok only because its you Ve, most people I would read nod and let this discussion go on. 1.make it 6F his 5A is already good, if it was 5F it would be too good, 2A change is welcome though. 2. I rather it be fatter than just taller. 3. That would make 5C amazing, we can actually have an extended bnb with it which would be pretty good, now if 6C was 26F instead of 29F I'd die happier. 4. I want more active frames on this move and a hit stun increase on the ground. 5. Yes this would be so good! 6. 4D is good the way it is, if anything give me frame advantage on it instead of just it being even on block. 7. It's his come back mechanic and a really good reversal...no sir. 8. Give it faster startup and more invul and it would be hella useful. 9. its startup is good the way it is, if people anticipate a jump they are gonna jump anyways, besides it would just get in the way of properly timing it. 10. Just give it more untech time, screw RCing it lol. 11. Give us less recovery and more untech time so we can follow up and it will be gold. 12. Yes please. 13. Yes this so much. (Make it closer to CS1 Ragna 22C as well as frame advantage too.) 14. This is ok, it should act a bit different from everyone else though. 15. Ok I am bromancing you for this one. 16. I kinda see where you are going with this...I am kinda ok with it. 17. I am ok with this as well, long as I get to special cancel it. 18. Hell yeah. On the idea of 2D it would be more solid if it had faster start up and if we had a feint for it that pulls in when someone is magnetized. I just wanna throw this one out for shits.
FlyingVe Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 I said this while you were responding but having the 360B be 4 frames would make his grab game alot more like a grappler, than just a character with a command grab. Good point about the reversal thing, I was kinda thinking the terra-break would fill that role (I'd give it lots of invul). Not safe though. I just don't like the 720. Like I said I probably forgot small stuff. Also, I don't think anything here would make him god tier, jsut viable.
A.X.I.S. Posted June 22, 2011 Author Posted June 22, 2011 Terra is too slow to be used as a wake up tactic, if you make it like 720 flash then it will make people too scared to move though and act stupid.
FlyingVe Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Also, you could make his CA 6A. Slow-ish, but JC-able.
A.X.I.S. Posted June 22, 2011 Author Posted June 22, 2011 That is pretty evil, I wanted a 5C CA but then it can be low profiled.
FlyingVe Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Well, a CA with 6A would be one hell of a defensive option. I might say broken, but its really alot like Noels.
C0R Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Eh... Maybe it's just me but that's a lot of really strong changes. Like a lot. First off, why are you guys so hungry for a reversal with meter? MTG is inarguably one of the strongest reversals in the game, its got a huge autogaurd window against all attacks, including unblockables, a massive hitbox that's active for half a year and it does decent damage. Magnetism makes it even stronger. On the subject of movement: Chargeable 6a that pulls during charge jump cancelable on block - The reason they removed the jump cancel was because they wanted to force you to commit. Returning the jump cancel with the added strength of the double jump would give him not only the ability to heavily reduce the mobility options of the opponent, but also allow him to retain the standard options of a basic character. If they did return the jump cancel, they would have to remove the charge (the better version from cs1 is perferrable imo). I can totally agree with giving him faster normals with better hitboxes that are better on block. But 4f 360b is uh... no. Like AXIS said it's already fast enough on offense, and it would make it too powerful a tool on defense. You'd be able to punish moves that are supposed to be unpunishable, and if they changed those moves to be better on block, they'd be imbalanced against every other charcter in the game. If Spark Bolt was proj invuln... I can see him having an EX spark bolt that had projectile guardpoint through the entire startup for 25 heat and the gauge, other than that it would make the normal spark bolt a bit too strong, and have no real downside. Issue is that no matter how good you made spark bolt it still doesn't help his worse matchups, because Hazama/Mu/Lambda/Hakumen/Kune can still just run away for a million years and dodge it. Tager's problem isn't that spark bolt sucks, it's that he can't trap people period. Buffing the double jump would already balance the scales a fair amount, other changes coulped with that can break the matchup mechanics. 2d buff and double jump would drastically improve his approach options, with jumpable 6a/better gatlings giving him better options to stay in, this, coupled with better frame advantage on some of his normals and better hitboxes, would be all it takes to make him viable. Other changes I can see would make him very scary, such as 22d stagger and 60% character damage rate. Anything beyond these belongs on a wishlist and not the patchnotes. So yes, lots of good points.
FlyingVe Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 The fact that Magna Tech wheal is auto guard and not invulnerable is a big weakness.
FlyingVe Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Tager's 5A is huge. It shouldn't be fast. Tager's a grappler, the lack of any remotely fast normal makes his up close game garbage. Like AXIS said 6F would probably be enough.
C0R Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Maybe he's not a grappler, and just a character with command grabs and an unblockable. :V? It would explain all the things wrong with him.
FlyingVe Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Maybe he's not a grappler, and just a character with command grabs and an unblockable. :V? It would explain all the things wrong with him. As he is right now, your right... But he's obviously supposed to be a grappler, so most of my ideas were to make his upclose game actually threatening. I agree that some might be overboard.
C0R Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 All the stuff like frame data changes I can totally agree with, I really like the idea of 2d being... a good move?
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