[CS2] Iron Tager General Discussion

[WolfCrimson]

I've been thinking about 6A break... I've said before that it's either this or Slide head (I'mma gonna call it seismic fist for now, sounds sciencey)> mag follow-up, together they'd make Tager S tier, and to be honest, I say slide head> mag follow up is better than 6A break for the following reason(s):

1. 6A break is dependant on the opponent being magnetised, while seismic fist doesn't really need magnetism, just the opponent being on the ground. The follow-up does need spark-bolt gauge, but it guarantees a combo afterwards (because as stated earlier, you could combo them with AC after floor mag bounce).

2. 6A break is really good for pulling them in from mid-range and not commiting to a very unsafe whiff, but I don't think it's good from afar. He already has tools to getting closer at that range (Bsledge and 2D) though (which, granted, could also become unsafe if whiffed). Seismic fist can get untechable knockdown from anywhere, really, as long as they didn't jump.

3. The mag floor follow-up to seismic fist would enable a serious mind-game: Since it needs a full spark-bolt gauge, that means you also have spark bolt at the ready. Usually, people don't really jump around or commit to dashing if Tager has Spark bolt, so they stay on the ground. However, staying grounded means being susceptible to seismic fist and getting floor mag follow-up into AC>combo. Jumping on the spot while barrier blocking would seem to be the best solution, but what if Tager times it right to hit the opponent between landing frames and jump start-up? That's 9 frames (for most of the cast) where the opponent is vulnerable. Double jumping could also yield an answer to this dilemma, but that means using up jump 'stocks' (for most characters) to do any more air movement, so when the opponent lands, Tager can also do Seismic Fist to score that knockdown. Double jumping on top of Tager is hella obvious, so he can just AC.

[Darlos9D]

Usually, people don't really jump around or commit to dashing if Tager has Spark bolt

Are we playing the same game? I get people double jumping around like a fruitloop across the screen when I have spark, with my only option being either A) use spark bolt or B) try to move in and take advantage of their fear, which can be iffy.

[Osuna]

There we go.

I didn't say AUB 5A would be great just crazy since, unlike hakumen we can't get a real combo off it and it is a large part of our mix up already.

In guilty gear there were other characters with 3 frame moves, potemkin didn't have light and heavy throws either, so he didn't need to differentiate throw properties. Unless you're talking about increasing invinvibility if you hold it, which has never been a property of that move, to not decrease the invulnerability it would have to have no vulnerable start up, and then you talk about changing the invuln so I have no idea what you mean anymore. Anywho, less invuln frames means it is harder for me to use in footsies and as a ghetto anti air, because of fewer frames of safe mag pull and just safe frames in general. So if you made it faster without giving it insane mag pull and something else to make it easier to anti air with, no I would Not be able to use it the way I do now.

As for the combo length I learned something today ~The more you know~ *Rainbow*. So it would just make like 360B potentially lead to 7k combos, which I'm sure Someone would complain about but whatevs.

Does 6B have much more range? 4D also had mag (sometimes) and came out much faster (always) and it's been a while since I've played CS1 now, but I seems to remember it going active before the max 2C push back.

In my experience, rush down and zoning characters don't have to bait backdash, they can option select/reaction punish it no problem if we're on the defensive, which makes it kinda eh as a defensive tool, but that's just me. And of course our jump start up is so long we can't use it defensively Really.

My only point about the XYH changes was that if you could cancel it to 720 whenever there's no need for the armor buff. It's already become a strong tool in other areas. I was thinking one time, of what would make CA useful since ours sucks, and I thought that since it missed so much that if it had the slidehead knock down on whiff, I would occasionally use it instead of never. Just something silly I talk about with friends for a laugh.

J.2C already leads to really good damage, making it fatal would only work if the pulled another 6B on us. Speaking of which a 13 frame overhead that breaks primer of a grappler is a Horrible idea. Unblockable J.2C is another gimmick, we have enough of those. Slidehead isn't that big of a deal, since zoners can zone us from the air and even if the didn't they'd likely stuff the move anyway. You guys are spending a lot of time on is kind of a goofy idea. The real use of it would be on oki from far away which is kinda mean and not fun and otherwise pretty gimmicky.

Really most of the ideas you guys have only improve his ability to be hated by noobs. Like a great person once said, just a little bit earlier in this thread, stuff like better jump prevention would help his game more than a bunch of additional gimmicks. Just adding tools won't buff a character unless they meet a need. We have poor defensive options, and all our eggs are in the punishing noobs basket, we don't have very good anti airs, and our jump prevention is pretty bad. Our mix up game is often Not in our favor etc etc.

Personally I'd be happy if they just took away his nerfs.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Osuna

[A.X.I.S.]

Old man Osuna.<3

I actually like where this is going, some of these idea's are so damn adorable it makes me smile.

[bakahyl]

I was wondering who is the worst match up for Tager? Mu, Lambda , Carl , Arakune or someone else?

edit: maybe hazama is also quite annoying for Tager.

Edited June 16, 2011 by bakahyl

[Isorropia]

I was wondering who is the worst match up for Tager? Mu, Lambda , Carl , Arakune or someone else?

edit: maybe hazama is also quite annoying for Tager.

It's generally accepted that Mu, hazama, lambda, arakune are varying levels of incredibly bad. Like if you're playing someone of equal skill you're gonna have a reeeeeally hard time winning.

[WolfCrimson]

I didn't say AUB 5A would be great just crazy since, unlike hakumen we can't get a real combo off it and it is a large part of our mix up already.

Someone already explained that to me, now I don't think it's a good idea either.

Sorry about that, I thought 360A worked like 360B did; that it pulls in during its active frames as well, not only the start-up, then I found out 360A only pulls during start-up, which is extendable bit, and has only 1 active frame. Shit, I just completely misunderstood how 360A works mechanics-wise. So yeah, you were right, it would decrease the amount of mag pull, IF you're looking to achieve minimum start-up. 360A doesn't really need changing start-up wise, it's apparently fine as is. But I still say reduce 360B start-up by one frame/two frames.

Yeah.... the intention isn't to make 360B a one-hit ko, just that his combos did a bit more damage off of pokes. I'm sure a well-placed proration nerf on 360B would solve this issue.

True, it doesn't really have that much range, if 2C is done at point blank the 6B would touch the other guy by the tip. So... less 2C pushback? Trying to give him mix-up.

How would you even buff the back-dash if you were to buff it? It already has its first 19 frames invuln, and it is 23 frames in total. Any more invuln and it's unbeatable.

It's not like I was suggesting to be able to cancel into 720 "whenever", just make the window bigger so that inputting it is more lenient. The armor activates really late to be able to use in blockstring gaps. I was suggesting it to be a bit earlier so that it's more forgiving in case Tager's wanted to XYH an incoming air-to-ground attack and then 720C it.

I agree that unblockable j2C is crazy, and fatal j2C is a bad idea. No comment on that 13 frame overhead. Slidehead would still have its use, not necessarily only against zoners. And zoners can't zone in the air forever, they have to land sometime. And it's not like Tager doesn't have sledge, xyh, blocking, spark bolt at all against zoners. No, Slide head would help with Tager's approach against characters that just run away, something he really really needs improved, almost everyone sit on a life lead and zone and he can't do shit (unless he has spark, which can be dodged and shit). Really, what would you suggest for that? At least slidehead would help in some way, and a follow up that somehow involves magnetism would help even more.

WELL SOMEONE NEEDS TO PUNISH THE NOOBS.

OK, being serious now.

Jump prevention? He already had his normals made AUB, what else is there? Make 2C faster? Hellish Tager Driver? 360s able to catch out of jump start-up? A new move called Attractorb where Tager passively pulls in opponents towards himself for 10 secs, which uses up the sparkbolt gauge? Honestly, you speak as if there's some other way to give him better 'jump prevention', when 5A and 2A AUB (with a respective untech time increase to be able to combo after it on non-CH) has already been suggested. His mix-up just needs new gatlings to be able to you know, mix them up, and to be able to end pressure safely (and get mag and break primers, maybe), and we already suggested new gatlings. 2C would be a better anti air if it had earlier and longer head attribute invuln, and the move was faster overall. And better horizontal range.

CA is fine.

[Astaroth136]

In other news, I would rather fight Mu, Lambda, and Tao than Tsubaki. Tsubaki just destroys Tager now. Outright destroys.

[Isorropia]

OK, being serious now.

Jump prevention? He already had his normals made AUB, what else is there? Make 2C faster? Hellish Tager Driver? 360s able to catch out of jump start-up? A new move called Attractorb where Tager passively pulls in opponents towards himself for 10 secs, which uses up the sparkbolt gauge? Honestly, you speak as if there's some other way to give him better 'jump prevention', when 5A and 2A AUB (with a respective untech time increase to be able to combo after it on non-CH) has already been suggested. His mix-up just needs new gatlings to be able to you know, mix them up, and to be able to end pressure safely (and get mag and break primers, maybe), and we already suggested new gatlings. 2C would be a better anti air if it had earlier and longer head attribute invuln, and the move was faster overall. And better horizontal range.

CA is fine.

The essence of jump prevention is making it so that, if the opponent tries to jump when they shouldn't, they pay for it. Only tager's 6A actually fulfills that role, all his other AUB moves....whiff on an opponent jumping back. (5C bigger vertical hitbox would be nice but I doubt it'll happen). What would be better is to keep them from even jumping in the first place, like every other character in BB can do by using low attacks.

Basically against ragna/makoto/anyone really, you wouldn't ever dare just hold up-back mindlessly while they're blockstringing you, but against tager, outside pointblank range there just isn't any real threat. Worst you'll take is 3C > GF (where 3C is punishable on block) or yomi collider (where if the yomi fails it's a free combo against tager).

It's been mentioned earlier, but essentially tager - the grappler - has one of the weakest close-range games in BB. (Well maybe saying that is a bit extreme....but still.)

[Osuna]

What are you trying to make 360B do by making it faster that it doesn't do now and/or is not already done by 360A? I want Backdash to have less inuvln and less vulnerability, which is to say I wish it was shorter. I don't like that people can whiff and then often have time to recover and punish. I'd like to be able to backdash when people are all up in my grill, but again that's just my feelings.

Do other people think CA is fine? Am I the only one wo thinks it is terrible? I've seen very few good uses for it, and all of those uses I've seen could have been done just as well or better by the CA's of pretty much any other member of the cast. Tager gets his stupid mix up off pretty much anything close to even on block so he doesn't need very many gatlings to get mix up going. Just let him 2C 4D again and you can mix up several different ways off his existing 'blockstrings'

I renew my objections to slidehead as a special move in that the match ups we need help getting in on aren't really improved by making them jump. Haz, Rachel, Mu, Lambda, Tao and even Tsubaki can do their anti tager keep away about as well (Sometimes better) in the air, like half the cast can punish that kind of stuff from nearly full screen, most of them While airborn. XYH, and sledge are good ways to get killed trying to catch someone and you only sometimes have Spark. Again where are all these match ups where people need to run away while being on the ground? One of the innovations of this game is the engine that allows them to show off complex movement options (Wind, chains etc) and it shows. I can't think of a time where I've thought "Man I wish I had slidehead" But I often think, man I wish I had 6P, or Pot's BD, or flick, or 2S, or Hammerfall, or APB, or HPB or even Judge Gauntlet one time. Because those all have powerful applications that would have really saved me.

[mAc Chaos]

In other news, I would rather fight Mu, Lambda, and Tao than Tsubaki. Tsubaki just destroys Tager now. Outright destroys.

Worse than Tao? That's hard to imagine.

[Osuna]

In other news, I would rather fight Mu, Lambda, and Tao than Tsubaki. Tsubaki just destroys Tager now. Outright destroys.

Whaat? No she doesn't she's just Super tsubaki against Tager since she always has full charge and can run out the clock if she has to, pretty much everyone who isn't a zoner but with above average damage. She actually has to move in at some point and if she wants all of her powered up options she has to be on the ground next to you at some point. You don't really get punishes, but you do get mix up opportunities if you play it right and don't get hit by random stuff.

I hate Mu's charged laser lock down. No risk mix ups and all that, I have to rely on match up inexperience to get good hits and then play it up close as long as I can.

[Isorropia]

Do other people think CA is fine? Am I the only one wo thinks it is terrible? I've seen very few good uses for it, and all of those uses I've seen could have been done just as well or better by the CA's of pretty much any other member of the cast. Tager gets his stupid mix up off pretty much anything close to even on block so he doesn't need very many gatlings to get mix up going. Just let him 2C 4D again and you can mix up several different ways off his existing 'blockstrings'

Nah, I think we're all aware his CA is awful.

Also I wouldn't necessarily call what tager does after a 4D (or similar) 'mixup'. Mixup would infer that the attacker is in firm control and is making the defender guess to avoid damage. Tager's is just rock paper scissors where if he guesses the wrong option of the 3 then he gets sent back to full screen against the zoner he spent all match trying to get in against.

[Osuna]

Nah, I think we're all aware his CA is awful.

Also I wouldn't necessarily call what tager does after a 4D (or similar) 'mixup'. Mixup would infer that the attacker is in firm control and is making the defender guess to avoid damage. Tager's is just rock paper scissors where if he guesses the wrong option of the 3 then he gets sent back to full screen against the zoner he spent all match trying to get in against.

You know I know that. I've been complaining about it since Gadget finger at least. That's why I always prefix mix up with "stupid" or "Tager" or "Stupid Tager" or just put it in quotation marks.

[A.X.I.S.]

In other news, I would rather fight Mu, Lambda, and Tao than Tsubaki. Tsubaki just destroys Tager now. Outright destroys.

No you do not.

Tsubaki is a easy match up.

Just fight her like she doesn't have a DP lol. <probably trolling.

[Astaroth136]

Whaat? No she doesn't she's just Super tsubaki against Tager since she always has full charge and can run out the clock if she has to, pretty much everyone who isn't a zoner but with above average damage. She actually has to move in at some point and if she wants all of her powered up options she has to be on the ground next to you at some point. You don't really get punishes, but you do get mix up opportunities if you play it right and don't get hit by random stuff.

Her 5B is awesome, but it can be beat out by a yomi'ed 5C. Her antiair (either 2B or 2C, can't remember) is pretty awesome too.

I haven't tested it yet, but today this Tsubaki player kept doing a particular short blockstring then IAD'ed backwards. Collider and 5C couldn't punish it, even with IB.

Her "charging star" (the move like Captain America's MVC2/3) is hard to predict and react to. IB as much as possible, or she gets free pressure every time. Backdash 360 beats it, but it's tough.

6A is terrible in this matchup... never use it. Even correctly baiting a dp gets you punished since she can do the dp followup.

Speaking of dp, we can't sledge through the powered up version any more (why this change was made is far beyond me). Watch the followups and when she uses the charges. Doesn't one of these charged followups make it safe?

She will always have charges. There's nothing we can do here, as you've pointed out. Just walk forward.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Astaroth136

[Manta]

Yeah, one of the followups does make it safe, that projectile she can emit does so, not sure if you can sledge it though. (Move to Tsubaki matchup forum?)

6D is still open to being mapped to a move, and he also has no air special moves. Maybe 6D can be that quick and head-invulnerable anti air move we so desperately need?

[WolfCrimson]

Yo, here's a brilliant idea that could help with jump prevention: Give Tager's ground C moves (5C, 2C, 6C and 3C) initial magnetic pull in its startup frames.

[Osuna]

IB makes all tackles punishable except for D version which should be the only one she uses because it is safe, but even that isn't a free block string since we have our usual "mix up" minus 5A off her drive tackle.

And yeah, her DP is safe if she has charges. Plus big damage and good meter gain if you get hit by anything. It's kinda like fighting CS1 Ragna.

Tager doesn't need a new anti air he needs a buff to his existing 3 or 4. Giving C moves pull during start up would make them better than D moves as pokes and do who knows what to his combo ability on top of being really weird looking.

[WolfCrimson]

Tager doesn't need a new anti air he needs a buff to his existing 3 or 4. Giving C moves pull during start up would make them better than D moves as pokes and do who knows what to his combo ability on top of being really weird looking.

A weak magnetic pull (think almost jD strength) to grounded C moves would solve jump prevention, huge pushback during blockstrings, and would make them serve as good pokes, as long as the opponent is magnetized, which would go hand-in-hand with the whole magnetism gimmick. You'd still need D moves to magnetize. And giving Tager his old 2C>4D gatling, as well as a 2C>6B gatling would be good for blockstrings and mix-up. And it was suggested that 2C's head att invuln starts earlier and last longer, as well as giving it better range. Disregarding everything ever posted before, these would make Tager good. Or at least not suck. What do you think?

Edited June 17, 2011 by WolfCrimson

[Isorropia]

I think having magnetism on 5C is a bit overboard. While indeed, it could help, from a design perspective it's a bit messy. Having magnetism attached to C moves would mean tager could just screw with everybody's spacing attempts at neutral, leading to a very strange footsies game in any matchup where tager is involved. And to be honest it wouldn't be much fun to fight against.

[WolfCrimson]

I think having magnetism on 5C is a bit overboard. While indeed, it could help, from a design perspective it's a bit messy. Having magnetism attached to C moves would mean tager could just screw with everybody's spacing attempts at neutral, leading to a very strange footsies game in any matchup where tager is involved. And to be honest it wouldn't be much fun to fight against.

So... this benefits Tager, helping his footsies game during magnetism. It's not like the C moves magnitze, just have weak magnetic pull. What's the problem?

[A.X.I.S.]

Ok I don't have much time today so I will talk about Tsubaki for a bit.

If your footsies and neutral game is up to snuff then she won't be a problem with charge.

The issue with charging stars is if she hits you at the last part of its active frames it becomes a huge plus instead of a small plus, its not too hard to react to if you are looking for it, just backdash 360B it, it catches her no matter what. (Needs more testing.)

You can IB 720 any string that leads to 2C/3C and you can IB 5B>5BB.

Her 2C is a tough anti air to crack if you have to deal with it then elbow her or barrier.

Tsubaki can 5B IAD back, I see no reason to care unless the clock is running out, just walk forward and let her do her game, you are either gonna hit her when she is near the corner or she is gonna get a good 4k on you.

4k to Tager is like 4.5k to everyone else...ouch but...ouch?

I'll let you enjoy your discussion.

Astaroth hook me up with that Tsubaki player sometime.

[Manta]

Well actually, buffing his current AAs won't do completely, there exists a sweet spot that's just above where 2A reaches, close enough that 2C and 236C are too slow where Tager's only choice is to block. And everyone exploits it.

[A.X.I.S.]

We can backdash if we want.

Don't forget that its ok to surprise people with a backdash or two, especially if you spent most of your matches not doing it.

IB is always a good option.