Manta Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 We can backdash if we want. Don't forget that its ok to surprise people with a backdash or two, especially if you spent most of your matches not doing it. IB is always a good option. And then what? They're usually airdashing at that height meaning that by the time we finish backdashing, we're at a disadvantage and they can poke as they fall down.
Osuna Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 J.D''s pull isn't bad because the strength is low it is bad because the pull starts very late, your idea of putting pull on the start up of more moves if it started Really late might not really be helpful except for combos and it might screw up some other combos.
WolfCrimson Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) @Osuna: I assume you're replying to me? In any case, I didn't mean it should start late like jD, I meant it should have a weak magnetic pull like jD, or even weaker. I can't really go into specifics because I'm just throwing out a general idea of what could solve Tager's problems, but the idea is adding weak magnetic pull to C moves to aid in jump prevention, blockstrings and footsies, but not be too much to negatively impact combos. I think this is possible. Edited June 17, 2011 by WolfCrimson
Osuna Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 @Osuna: I assume you're replying to me? In any case, I didn't mean it should start late like jD, I meant it should have a weak magnetic pull like jD, or even weaker. I can't really go into specifics because I'm just throwing out a general idea of what could solve Tager's problems, but the idea is adding weak magnetic pull to C moves to aid in jump prevention, blockstrings and footsies, but not be too much to negatively impact combos. I think this is possible.J.D's pull isn't That weak though, which is what I'm saying. It seems weak because it doesn't pull for as long as it used to. Combine with our few active frames and it could very easily end up not helping.
WolfCrimson Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 J.D's pull isn't That weak though, which is what I'm saying. It seems weak because it doesn't pull for as long as it used to. Combine with our few active frames and it could very easily end up not helping. OK then, just a very weak magnetic pull that helps Tager.
A.X.I.S. Posted June 19, 2011 Author Posted June 19, 2011 And then what? They're usually airdashing at that height meaning that by the time we finish backdashing, we're at a disadvantage and they can poke as they fall down. It depends on when they poke on the air dash. The earlier the better.
WolfCrimson Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 OK then, just a very weak magnetic pull that helps Tager. Actually, coming back and reading this made me realize that this post does not properly convey what I wanted to be understood, which is: that the frames of magnetic pull should be set up in such a way that it'd pull them enough in a certain way as to help Tager with jump prevention, footsies, blockstrings/mixup (so that the mix-up does not defeat its own purpose) and even some combos, and not really be useless or even negative. I don't know how magnets fucking work, but I'd take a guess and say magnetism frames in the mid to mid-late region (1/2 to 3/4) of start-up could be that sweet spot.
A.X.I.S. Posted June 19, 2011 Author Posted June 19, 2011 I like the discussion here but I am gonna chime in tell you guys what I want from Tager. All I want for Tager is consistency, instead of a pile of clusterfuck to make a character to crap on noobs, I want moves that are actually answers to problems. For example Hazama spam chains? I want to be able to remedy that whether its a gameplay change or if it's a rocket fist or something. I want gattlings that can actually lock down and give me legitimate pressure that my opponent has to actually guess out of instead of sleep eat a gadget then do it again. I want a legit punish for this type of play. I want magnetism to not be so inconsistent and more geared to tech punishes and sloppy footsies. (it is sub par in both IMO.) I want Tager to actually have solid oki off a 360 and gadget to leave them in crumble state instead of what we have now. I want Tager's pokes to be faster and some to have solid hitboxes. To me this would make Tager a decent character in this game, he will still have lame shitty match ups but with changes that support this he will actually have perhaps a harder time being lamed out which is all that I want. I don't like going to specifics but this is the gist of what I want.
WolfCrimson Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 I want Tager to actually have solid oki off a 360 and gadget to leave them in crumble state instead of what we have now. Er... Why the crumble/stagger state specifically? Because of the recovery?
C0R Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 You can't mash out of stagger state, you're forced to block for x frames after teching. So he would have actual mixup after knockdown, instead of guessing games that aren't out of his favor.
WolfCrimson Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) You can't mash out of stagger state, you're forced to block for x frames after teching. So he would have actual mixup after knockdown, instead of guessing games that aren't out of his favor. But... why would anyone tech out of stagger state against Tager? His damage prorates horribly, better be bluebeat comboed while in stagger than tech, and if Tager does 360 it'll be pink, giving them a free escape. Oh, also the no: of frames is 8. You can't act for 8 frames after teching out of stagger state, because that's how long it takes to recover from stagger. Edited June 19, 2011 by WolfCrimson
C0R Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 Well, you give him free meter if you don't tech, as well as free damage. Even with the .4 character prorate he can still 3c > GF xN if they don't feel like teching, it's a lot of meter and those sets of 100 minimum will stack up. Additionally it won't leave them in a position to tech in a place that's beneficial for them, because it would just be GF over and over again.
A.X.I.S. Posted June 19, 2011 Author Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) But... why would anyone tech out of stagger state against Tager? His damage prorates horribly, better be bluebeat comboed while in stagger than tech, and if Tager does 360 it'll be pink, giving them a free escape. Oh, also the no: of frames is 8. You can't act for 8 frames after teching out of stagger state, because that's how long it takes to recover from stagger. You are wrong in this case, In stagger state, or just hitting a grounded opponent after so many hits the combo resets so even if they decide not to tech you can actually reset the combo, so again you should you not tech there can be a actual punish for it. And if you tech we can do something like that. This will actually give Tager a fear factor to me. I'd love to hear Osuna and Ve's opinion on this since them 2 are grouchy old men. :D Edited June 19, 2011 by A.X.I.S.
FlyingVe Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) I've been suggesting making 22D like Ragna's 22C for a while. It wouldn't even be that good really. Just have gadget leave them in an actual stagger and have the opponent closer to Tager than they are currently dropped. I could give my Tager wish list again for the newbies, but most of you have heard it by now. If they want to leave it the way it is now, it needs a shit ton more frame advantage and it would still ned to drop them closer. Edited June 19, 2011 by FlyingVe
toanenadiz Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 But... why would anyone tech out of stagger state against Tager? His damage prorates horribly, better be bluebeat comboed while in stagger than tech, and if Tager does 360 it'll be pink, giving them a free escape. Oh, also the no: of frames is 8. You can't act for 8 frames after teching out of stagger state, because that's how long it takes to recover from stagger. That isn't always true. If you 360 someone in frames 6 to 8 of stagger recovery, it will be green and unbreakable.
FlyingVe Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 That isn't always true. If you 360 someone in frames 6 to 8 of stagger recovery, it will be green and unbreakable. Hmm... I didn't know that. That would explain why they haven't done it that way. Then I fall back on my second thought, it should at least give alot more frame advantage.
Osuna Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 As far as 22D being like ragna 22C, I was more outraged that Ragna's was so much better than ours than we didn't get it. Seriously the Rushdown character gets a better version of a throw than a grappler? Stagger gives some interesting advantage and options and would make Tager quite strong. People had RC'd GF into 5D for the stagger, and the stagger on 5D isn't even that good (If they tech asap you only get about 2 frames of advantage.), but stagger grounds them until they tech or are hit. The 3 frame window for unbreakable throws isn't That big of a deal, they can tech at any point across a very long continuum or not at all and we have to guess when those 3 frames will be. Also if they make the minimum tech time tight like with 5D, they could do the minimum tech and never be in danger of an inescapable throw. At the end of a long combo you could do a real tight 5A 360B if you think they won't tech, or at least you would have been able to if they didn't nerf 5A. The real problem is that, unlike all of our real unintuitive options, GF with Stagger would actually give us an advantage up close with a lot of aggressive options and limited defensive options for them. There's no way they'll let us have a confusing and good move, it makes games unfun and that's probably the rationalization for not making us good in the first place.
Manta Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 So okay, let's have a discussion about something that currently exists rather than dreaming of the next incarnation. Say I've got my back to the wall and somehow I squeeze in a 360A in their pressure. Is GF even a good followup in such a situation or should I just get out of the corner whilst I can?
FlyingVe Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Honestly, what I would do in that situation would depend alot on the character and their habits.
WolfCrimson Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Well, you give him free meter if you don't tech, as well as free damage. Even with the .4 character prorate he can still 3c > GF xN if they don't feel like teching, it's a lot of meter and those sets of 100 minimum will stack up. Additionally it won't leave them in a position to tech in a place that's beneficial for them, because it would just be GF over and over again. Character combo rate does not factor in tech-time reduction. Also, it's very possible the opponent techs and block as soon as he sees 3C start-up. 3C isn't that fast, and has bad recovery if the opponent techs and blocks. And even if the opponent can't (i.e. doesn't have the reaction time for that), doing 3C>GFx N does give you alot of meter (very little damage), but how many reps do you think Tager can do before huge hitstun reduction, or even auto-tech, kicks in? GF has bad P2. You are wrong in this case, In stagger state, or just hitting a grounded opponent after so many hits the combo resets so even if they decide not to tech you can actually reset the combo, so again you should you not tech there can be a actual punish for it. And if you tech we can do something like that. This will actually give Tager a fear factor to me. I'd love to hear Osuna and Ve's opinion on this since them 2 are grouchy old men. :D Combo reset would need the combo to have been long enough that hit-stun reduction would allow a combo reset, there aren't that many combos that do that. Even then that could be met with an easy answer: The opponent could just be holding back or down-back while you're hitting him, so any attempts to reset the combo would be met with block, they'd have to react to high/low, true, but with Tager's abnormally slow overheads, that's not hard to do. You could say Tager could do 2B and wait for them to get out of hitstun, and that'll give you an advantage to do something like a hit/throw mix-up afterwards, but it'd still be the same guessing game that Tager has now after GF, although with a tighter window for the opponent to do something. The exact same thing could be achieved if the current GF had more frame advantage. That isn't always true. If you 360 someone in frames 6 to 8 of stagger recovery, it will be green and unbreakable. That's true, but what I meant was being in stagger state (not teching out of it and being in stagger recovery) makes grabs pink. SO the opponent could just not tech and just let his grabs become pink.
Manta Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 That's true, but what I meant was being in stagger state (not teching out of it and being in stagger recovery) makes grabs pink. SO the opponent could just not tech and just let his grabs become pink. Poke them in the eye with 5A and force them to stand.
WolfCrimson Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) @Manta: Could end up being very disadvantageous in longer combos, with Tager's pretty heavy repeat proration, they might even recover before you. But could be very useful in shorter combos. For example, the pretty standard combo of 5c>6A>2C>AC>AC whiff>6B>2C>AC> Bsledge>gadget makes the tech time proration go below 10%, which corresponds to -5 standing hitstun reduction. Since 5A has 3 active frames and 7 frames recovery, and is a level 1 move, which has 12 frames standing hitstun, would leave you at slight frame disadvantage (since their hitstun is 12-5= 7, while your total recovery is rest of active frames + recovery (2 + 7 = 9), leaving you at 7-9 = -2 disadvantage. Formula for calculating tech-time reduction= (P1 of first move in combo)x (P2 of all moves in combo)x (repeat proration of all moves in combo) x (bonus proration of all moves in combo) so... 1x (.92 x.89 x.92 x.8 x.92 x.92 x.8 x.7 x.6) x (.45) = .077 or 7.7% That's only if you use 5A by itself. Edited June 20, 2011 by WolfCrimson
FlyingVe Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Gah.... Tager doesn't need math, he needs something useful. Anything useful.
Manta Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 But cancelling 5A into itself would mean you strike them right as they recover and get a very strange reset, assuming they don't block.
WolfCrimson Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 That's... a pretty big assumption. You could also assume they don't block after current GF (the one Tager has now) and you'd get a reset as well.
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