[CS2] Iron Tager General Discussion

[FlyingVe]

@AXIS: I jsut noticed something in your comment. But the increased active frames on the 4D would enable it to hit meaty easier and thus give you more plus frames.

[Manta]

Here's an interesting idea for Tager regarding his mobility (Shamelessly stolen from victor in Vampire savior):

a 2-3F startup command jump that puts him in the air just long enough to get a j.D out. Basically gives him a low/throw invulnerability move. Using it with j.B would basically be megafist. Using it as an empty jump would be some kind of throw tic.

[A.X.I.S.]

Actually that would be hella strong.

Not only can we use it for yomi air throws, we can use it for cross up shenanigans.

We can do some really mean and cool stuff with it.

[Osuna]

Why do people keep suggesting a 4 frame throw? What exactly can that do that 360A can't do?

Edit: Besides screw up the timing for a lot of easy tick throws by being purpling.

[Manta]

Why do people keep suggesting a 4 frame throw? What exactly can that do that 360A can't do?

Edit: Besides screw up the timing for a lot of easy tick throws by being purpling.

It's less likely to be jumped out of/Reversaled. But that doesn't mean I justify it.

[Osuna]

It's less likely to be jumped out of/Reversaled. But that doesn't mean I justify it.

I disagree, in any throw situation you can't react to the throw, so you psychic jump/reversal/backdash/whatever.

For them to be caught by an early active frame they would have to have been Surprised by it, but were going to jump sometime after it goes active.

When the heck is that happening?

[Manta]

Random shit happens, like if someone lands in front of you and tries to jump out of a throw. A quick throw might catch them whilst they're still in landing recovery.

[FlyingVe]

Why do people keep suggesting a 4 frame throw? What exactly can that do that 360A can't do?

Edit: Besides screw up the timing for a lot of easy tick throws by being purpling.

My logic is simple. In most games the grappler has a throw that is wicked fast. Faster than the standard fast normal (which in BB is 5 frames). What this does is make it so that the grappler can punish things that other characters cannot. It makes it so that other characters have to be very cautious playing up close. In fact, Tager is the only grappler that does not have a fast command grab. The effect of this is that other characters mush watch their spacing against the grappler. In my opinion it would make Tager alot more like a grappler if he had such a throw. You could just change the timings on you tic's.

Also, I suggested it under the pretense of removing the 720C.

[Osuna]

My logic is simple. In most games the grappler has a throw that is wicked fast. Faster than the standard fast normal (which in BB is 5 frames). What this does is make it so that the grappler can punish things that other characters cannot. It makes it so that other characters have to be very cautious playing up close. In fact, Tager is the only grappler that does not have a fast command grab. The effect of this is that other characters mush watch their spacing against the grappler. In my opinion it would make Tager alot more like a grappler if he had such a throw. You could just change the timings on you tic's.

Also, I suggested it under the pretense of removing the 720C.

Well then applying that idea, in what situations do people attack while in throw range in a way that not only doesn't lead to a block string, but leaves them -4? In my experience they are either too far away or one of us is blocking a string/mix up. People already watch their spacing, but because we can't do anything about it if they do.

Since within a block string, the majority of the time, 360A would be able to do the job (The removed 720 of course would be far better at it), and further able to do it when a 4 frame throw could not. Within a block string, you'd just get your old IB 360B points back. This isn't street fighter, it isn't even guilty gear. The frame data is really incompatible to the point where stolen ideas need a Lot of tweaking to cross games.

Also I want to say this because I forgot to a while ago, I like the autoarmor on MTW, I'd rather have enough autoguard to plow through things than to have enough invincibility to just get started. Because the reason we Can plow through things is because it is armor, there's no what they'd give us a massively invincible move. The armor frequently can't be rapided out of too.

[FlyingVe]

I don't think the frame data is as incompatible as your suggesting it is, if at all. With the IB system of reducing pushback and blockstun lost of moves would be rendered vulnerable. This doesn't mean that loads of stuff would suddenly become vulnerable and useless, but it would require a change in tactics. A good example is with staggered strings. Heaven forbid people respect the grappler up close.

You are correct in saying that the current 360A 'could' function this way, but because of its speed it is still a crap shoot. It's hard to use it as a tool to discourage or alter someones play-style when the thing can be avoided in the situations where a 4F 360 could work as an actual punish. 360A is, in my opinion, more of a footsies tool, using the invul and mag to yomi out pokes and maybe stuff certain shitty moves like bang's D. But as it stands, you can just run all over Tager in the up close game because he is just a character with a grab and a gimmick and not a grappler.

[Osuna]

I don't think the frame data is as incompatible as your suggesting it is, if at all. With the IB system of reducing pushback and blockstun lost of moves would be rendered vulnerable. This doesn't mean that loads of stuff would suddenly become vulnerable and useless, but it would require a change in tactics. A good example is with staggered strings. Heaven forbid people respect the grappler up close.

You are correct in saying that the current 360A 'could' function this way, but because of its speed it is still a crap shoot. It's hard to use it as a tool to discourage or alter someones play-style when the thing can be avoided in the situations where a 4F 360 could work as an actual punish. 360A is, in my opinion, more of a footsies tool, using the invul and mag to yomi out pokes and maybe stuff certain shitty moves like bang's D. But as it stands, you can just run all over Tager in the up close game because he is just a character with a grab and a gimmick and not a grappler.

What situations would 360B be used as an actual punish that 360A could not? I freely admit I might be lacking in imagination, but I'd like to hear one since this is the third time I'm calling people out on this idea.

In the case of staggering strings 360A would be (and IS) usable at Far more distances because it is slower, and it would be jumpable only in the same way 360B would be. It's what I do when people stagger strings, since they leave a big gap and then start another block string, which odds are by the end you Won't be able to "punish" with 360B.

So please, an example of something meaningful a 4 frame throw would do for us, that 360A does not already do, because I'm very suspicious of this idea.

Edit: Some math IB nerf -2 frames, 360B buff +2 frames=CS1

[Isorropia]

I think what Ve means is that people are accustomed to ending strings with moves that are say, -1 on block, which in all cases is safe in BB. But tager with a 4f 360B could IB and punish the blockstring, which is safe against all other characters. This is in a similar way to, eg, SF4 where spds are 2f and thus can punish things that normal chars (with 3f jabs) cannot.

But then yeah, spacing could make it whiff anyway.

[A.X.I.S.]

In some situations you have to IB 360B instead of IB 360A, normally on punishable special moves.

Just throwing that out there.

[FlyingVe]

What Isorropa said was what I was getting at. I'm okay with people using spacing against the grappler, that's what they should have to do. Also, really I was thinking the 360B should probably be 3 frames, but I thought that might be overkill.

Also, since IB is -3, then it would assist in any situation where the opponent is +4 or worse. (+4 with IB, +1 with normal block).

Edit: After re-reading my post, I think my use of the word punish was a bit of an issue.

Edited June 22, 2011 by FlyingVe

[Osuna]

What Isorropa said was what I was getting at. I'm okay with people using spacing against the grappler, that's what they should have to do. Also, really I was thinking the 360B should probably be 3 frames, but I thought that might be overkill.

Also, since IB is -3, then it would assist in any situation where the opponent is +4 or worse. (+4 with IB, +1 with normal block).

360A also helps when they are plus on block and both can be jumped.

IB nerf +2 frame buff=CS1 360B, which I liked but hardly stopped people from walking all over us.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a buff, but I am saying that you're claiming it will do something that I don't think it would.

[FlyingVe]

360A also helps when they are plus on block and both can be jumped.

IB nerf +2 frame buff=CS1 360B, which I liked but hardly stopped people from walking all over us.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a buff, but I am saying that you're claiming it will do something that I don't think it would.

I'm also suggesting it alongside letting you RC it and general damage boosts. Potemkin buster (as an example) is made extra scary because you can FRC into huge damage. 360A just doesn't do enough damage to be hyper scary.

Yes, it is effectively like the CS1 360B on IB, but the move is better without IB, and the game is CS2. It's much more powerful in context.

I shouldn't have used the word punish, that was a poor choice on my part, the big gain is the threat of getting grabbed.

Edit: My intention was also to replace the threat that goes with the 720, more so that an expectation that 4F 360B is a game altering buff. Of my suggestions, it really does about the same thing as the current 720.

Edited June 23, 2011 by FlyingVe

[Osuna]

I'm also suggesting it alongside letting you RC it and general damage boosts. Potemkin buster (as an example) is made extra scary because you can FRC into huge damage. 360A just doesn't do enough damage to be hyper scary.

Yes, it is effectively like the CS1 360B on IB, but the move is better without IB, and the game is CS2. It's much more powerful in context.

I shouldn't have used the word punish, that was a poor choice on my part, the big gain is the threat of getting grabbed.

Ok, getting grabbed when? Can you think of an example? I'd like to examine some context to see if it could actually do something cool.

The vast majority of pot buster damage was in the buster, the coolest part was spending 25% meter for strong oki (Which he easily built). If you want to spend 50 heat you can already combo from 360B (and meterless on half the cast)

The more I talk about how 360A does everything already the more I want it to be buffed or unnerfed at least.

It does one of the 3 important things 720 does. It really really does not replace the threat.

(If we have to talk about the other options terrabreak should obviously not have a ton of invincivility because it has combo implications, maybe guard break implications, and MTW is already a reversal.)

Edited June 23, 2011 by Osuna

[FlyingVe]

Ok, getting grabbed when? Can you think of an example? I'd like to examine some context to see if it could actually do something cool.

The vast majority of pot buster damage was in the buster, the coolest part was spending 25% meter for strong oki (Which he easily built). If you want to spend 50 heat you can already combo from 360B (and meterless on half the cast)

The more I talk about how 360A does everything already the more I want it to be buffed or unnerfed at least.

I don't like invulnerable command grabs, (personal thing) would I would rather buff 360B than A.

As an example of the threat. If the opponent is a +1 for whatever reason, and you do 360B and they do a 5F move (probably 5A) then they would get grabbed because throws beat attacks if they hit at the same time. Obviously they could still jump or back away. The difference between this and 360A (which would also beat the jab), is that if they sit there for even a few frame, they get grabbed. Where-as 360A is pretty slow.

IB just puts a +4 frame situation in the same +1 situation.

Edit: I said one frame there, that was stupid, fixed that.

Edited June 23, 2011 by FlyingVe

[Osuna]

I don't like invulnerable command grabs, (personal thing) would I would rather buff 360B than A.

As an example of the threat. If the opponent is a +1 for whatever reason, and you do 360B and they do a 5F move (probably 5A) then they would get grabbed because throws beat attacks if they hit at the same time. Obviously they could still jump or back away. The difference between this and 360A (which would also beat the jab), is that if they sit there for even a few frame, they get grabbed. Where-as 360A is pretty slow.

IB just puts a +4 frame situation in the same +1 situation.

Edit: I said one frame there, that was stupid, fixed that.

Let's say they are +1 and you 360A and they 5A right? So the difference, and the only situation you have come up with is that if they stand there and do nothing, they will get thrown. This makes no sense, as crappy as it is, you can't react to tager's throw mix up, unless you go for an overhead which I personally don't like.

So if they are standing around a little bit and not jumping it means they chose not to jump. 360A would still hit.

360A would also hit at greater disadvantage.

[FlyingVe]

You discounting the damage difference. 360A doesn't really do alot of damage, where-as 360B does. A situation where 2.7k is on the line is much weaker than one where 4k+ is on the line.

Also, reactionable or not the difference in speed between 360A and B is still significant.

Edited June 23, 2011 by FlyingVe

[Osuna]

You discounting the damage difference. 360A doesn't really do alot of damage, where-as 360B does. A situation where 2.7k is on the line is much weaker than one where 4k+ is on the line.

Then combine them into one move. The reason 360A is used in all of these situations is that it is supposed to be and 360B is supposed to punish Big mistakes/be used aggressively.

If you want more damage defensively or in ambiguous situations just buff 360A instead of making 360B do everything. 360A has all the utility you want but not of the damage, so buff it a bit. Otherwise there's almost no point to having 2 throws.

EDIT: In what situation does the speed difference matter besides the Very few cases of straight up punishment (which would only be at CS1 level, and below 720 level even if it was faster) and tick throws, which it does fine already. Because the mix up is unreactionable, their options all work very well with reversal timing, it doesn't give us anything to win with in that situation. That's what I mean when I bring up unreactionability.

Edited June 23, 2011 by Osuna

[FlyingVe]

I could get on board with that idea (in fact on my original list I reduced it to one grab and an air 360) . But I still don't like the idea of the invulnerable command grab being really good from a gameplay perspective.

As I said before, in the context of my list, there is no 720 for that punishment role. As long as we still have the 720, 360B doesn't really need a speed boost.

[Osuna]

I could get on board with that idea (in fact on my original list I reduced it to one grab and an air 360) . But I still don't like the idea of the invulnerable command grab being really good from a gameplay perspective.

As I said before, in the context of my list, there is no 720 for that punishment role. As long as we still have the 720, 360B doesn't really need a speed boost.

What I mean to say is since the buff doesn't make up for what the 720 does at all, that it is in fact a nerf when put into context.

EDIT: also where are all these situations where the speed on 360A is a liability?

Edited June 23, 2011 by Osuna

[FlyingVe]

That's missing my point. My point is since the buff doesn't make up for what the 720 does at all, that it is in fact a nerf when put into context.

You're talking about the 720 as a reversal. While that's certainly good, I still feel (my opinion on this one), that Tager's ability to convert a 1 frame gap into 5.6k unburstable damage is one of the key reasons he doesn't get real buffs. It would be frustrating and potentially unbalanced if he was both a good character (for whatever reasons) and had a reversal that lopped off half your health.

I also think there are lots of other ways to fix Tager's defensive issues.

Edit: To answer your edit (lol) the speed on the 360A is a liability when ever it has to use it magnetic pull to get the grab. It is unreactionable at point blank, but just barely.

Edited June 23, 2011 by FlyingVe

[Osuna]

You're talking about the 720 as a reversal. While that's certainly good, I still feel (my opinion on this one), that Tager's ability to convert a 1 frame gap into 5.6k unburstable damage is one of the key reasons he doesn't get real buffs. It would be frustrating and potentially unbalanced if he was both a good character (for whatever reasons) and had a reversal that lopped off half you health.

I'm referring to it being invincible, and having very long range. The 360B speed buff mostly amounts to a damage buff since instead of creating a ton of new situations for throws it just turns some of 360A's spots in 360B spots, which is nice, but it doesn't give you anything except damage in return for losing the ability to punish many many things.

And while they will never get rid of it, I don't disagree that it is probably one reason why we suck. I'm just saying if your changes don't give us a net gain then they are nerfs.

EDIT: By which I mean we lose a lot of punish chances but gain very very few since most of the new uses were already fulfilled by 360A.

Edited June 23, 2011 by Osuna