Osmond Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 If anyone knows how to justify negativity it would be Osuna.
Leo7 Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 I don't play Tager anymore, and I know everyone's talking about Tager's viability, but Akira qualified for SBO! Celebrations are in order for one of my favorite players. Hope he doesn't get taken out round 1.
CrazyI-nomitsu Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) So mike says besides all the things they gave him. He was better in the first game. That's very interesting. But you have to look at more than just damage output here. Tager actually has something called mix up believe or not in Cs 1 and 2. And moves like 22D, 4D, and 3C have been a be help for Tager too. I feel if he had that stuff in CT combine with a sexy damage output then he would have been boss. Anyone disagree? You can if you want to. Edited July 7, 2011 by CrazyI-nomitsu
Koopa_Klawz Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) congrats to Akira. he should be rewarded with a buffed tager. :p So mike says besides all the things they gave him. He was better in the first game. That's very interesting. But you have to look at more than just damage output here. Tager actually has something called mix up believe or not in Cs 1 and 2. And moves like 22D, 4D, and 3C have been a be help for Tager too. I feel if he had that stuff in CT combine with a sexy damage output then he would have been boss. Anyone disagree? You can if you want to. it would make him more scary of getting hit by that's for sure. now if we had a good way of getting in so we could make good use of the damage. Edited July 7, 2011 by Koopa_Klawz
CrazyI-nomitsu Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Koopa: Arc doesn't want to give it to him. But hey Akira is also a smart player. Let's see how far can he get. He got 3rd in the last tourney before this. BTW, do they win anything for SBO? I never heard anything about cash prizes.
C0R Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 JP tournaments can't run pots, there's no entry stuff, therefore no base prize money, all the reward has to come from sponsors.
FlyingVe Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 So mike says besides all the things they gave him. He was better in the first game. That's very interesting. But you have to look at more than just damage output here. Tager actually has something called mix up believe or not in Cs 1 and 2. And moves like 22D, 4D, and 3C have been a be help for Tager too. I feel if he had that stuff in CT combine with a sexy damage output then he would have been boss. Anyone disagree? You can if you want to. Do you remember 3C RC's from CT, 6k damage easy.
CrazyI-nomitsu Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Do you remember 3C RC's from CT, 6k damage easy. opps that's my bad.
Brice Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 i do think that tager got worse in each iteration of the game. cs2 being the worse (imo) even though his matchups seems less horrible it doesn't really matter : they will run over you. the only way to win with tager is to be a better player than your opponent by at least 2 lvl... which is why Akira wins. sometimes... but hurray Tager on SBO!!! woohoo... and iirc this year's sbo is single man right? ok if he doen't go against a bad matchup first round he can make it. oh wait... back to tager now. CT 720 had minimum recovery. you could whiff it and it was safe-ish. bolt was boss, it was used to EXTEND your damage output. not just punishing obvious stuff or adding mag. CT tager could AC 6C 5D bolt >... for RIDICULOUS damage. do it now and look at your shitty combo. if not for V-13 ara and rachel he would have been a somewhat decent character instead of the tager tier we know. main reason i hate cs2 tager : it's impossible to keep your opponent magnetised, knowing that having a magnetised opponent make any matchup better (even mirror matches now) sorry for being so negative but playing tager is always a frustration even when i see cool stuff that makes me wanna play again, and my ps3 dying on me for the third time tonight damnit. :P
FlyingVe Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) opps that's my bad. I think that's pretty much MikeZ's point. Tager's still pretty gimmicky even after all the changes, but at least in CT we got paid or landing them, and if you took out the broke Fab 5 his matchups weren't overly terribad. I still hold CS1 Tager is the best though. @Brice: It was worse than that in CT. V-13, Rachel, Jin, Carl, Arakune, and Tao all shit on Tager in that game. Even Noel had a slight advantage. Edited July 7, 2011 by FlyingVe
Osuna Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 I don't think having insane damage in a game where a significant chunk of the cast had insaner damage makes a character good. I disagree that CT tager was the best because quality of damage is always relative and more things have improved since then than gotten worse in CS1 if not 2. Though I think he had a level 0 5A in CT, am I making that up?
FlyingVe Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 I think MikeZ meant that side by side CT Tager is stronger, but within their respective games CT Tager is by far the weakest. CT 5A was lvl 0, and had a +1 SD.
Brice Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 the point is not having insane damage makes him good. it's just that you could win a round with only 2-3 good guesses... and you could litteraly one shot everybody after they bursted... if you could bait the burst in CT, gg. and since spark bolt was somewhat good for your proration people feared it like hell mostly after their burst. this character is only about guessing right or wrong, playing solid will only get you so far and a single good guess is a huge chunk of the work you have to accomplish to overcome your opponent.
FlyingVe Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Personally, I think CS1 and CS2 Tager have the tools to play a clean solid game, the problem is in the matchups. There are certain matchups where Tager can't do shit. He's lacking certain tools to even compete. He doesn't really need to beat up on Ragna better, he needs some kind of full screen presence.
Osuna Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 I think MikeZ meant that side by side CT Tager is stronger, but within their respective games CT Tager is by far the weakest. CT 5A was lvl 0, and had a +1 SD.Of course, what I'm contending with is that if you ignore damage, which is meaningless outside of the context of other characters, when you compare the other stats I still think CT tager isn't the best. Not that he doesn't have his lopsided charm.
FlyingVe Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Of course, what I'm contending with is that if you ignore damage, which is meaningless outside of the context of other characters, when you compare the other stats I still think CT tager isn't the best. Not that he doesn't have his lopsided charm. Agreed, his tools (damage aside) are much, much better in the CS versions (specifically CS1). The thing to take away from the damage argument is that Tager needs a damage buff. I'm just happy he has decent matchups this time around. Not good, but not cringe worthy either. From a design standpoint (magnetism) Tager actually has alot of potential in future installments, even if I doubt mori will go there.
Manta Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Agreed, his tools (damage aside) are much, much better in the CS versions (specifically CS1). The thing to take away from the damage argument is that Tager needs a damage buff. I'm just happy he has decent matchups this time around. Not good, but not cringe worthy either. From a design standpoint (magnetism) Tager actually has alot of potential in future installments, even if I doubt mori will go there. I'd personally argue that Hazama is quite cringeworthy.
the_difinitive Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 i kind of get why people bitch about tager, but i don't get why it happens so often. i mean, you play tager, you EXPECT him to be crap. he's the big fat slow character in a game with speedsters and zoners. what more can you hope for? this game is ridiculously balanced already, tager has one or two really bad matchups but that's it. so you have to be a decent chunk better than your top tier counterparts? that's part of tager, that's what you enter into when you decide to play tager. those are the things that i laugh about when i talk about how i play tager. the win is just so much more satisfying. i fully agree with what mori(?) said - if tager was good, he wouldn't be fun anymore. i find most of the fun about tager is that you have to be thinking a lot more, you have to be getting the better guesses in, that's tager. if they made him a good character then he wouldn't be tager anymore. there's no point complaining about a weakness when you can be spending your time thinking about how to turn that weakness to your advantage, or avoiding situations where that weakness won't be as problematic. saying "tager vs hazama is a bitch, we need blah blah blah to fix this character" is pointless and counterproductive when you could be thinking about what tools you have now that can help out. yes, it's a horribly terrible matchup NOW, but who knows, stranger things have happened than turning a 70:30 matchup into a 60:40 matchup. heck, in the span of 2 years i've seen hard counters turn into soft disadvantages because people didn't just go "omg this matchup is so gay" they actively worked to figure out what they can do about it. i don't think there's any problem with knowing your character is bad and admitting they're bad and talking about how they're bad - you have to know your character is bad and how they're bad before you can get better with them. i just agree with dacid in that if you know your character is bad then COMPLAINING about it is counterproductive. of course i'm a nobody in blazblue so whatever
Manta Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 I don't mind having to think hard to beat my opponents, you're right, that is fun. But what I really don't want is the really slanted matchups which are actually solved games, like the hazama one. If he plays in a certain way and can react faster than a certain amount, he WILL win. Every time. Sooner every matchup was 4.5:5.5 against Tager than these specific bad ones. But at the same time, it would be possible to make Tager better without alienating the newbies as Mori so fears. He just needs moves that cover the gaps that only good players know how to exploit. I know I'm still complaining, but at least I'm sounding a hell of a lot less bitchy than you.
Osmond Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Having a character have at least slight disadvantage against the entire cast with exception of two characters is not balance it's poor design. I always had this naive hope that they would one day fix the big guy considering the rest of the cast is so balanced now, again with the exception of Makoto. And even if they don't want to I'll keep pushing for it even if I'm the only one.
A.X.I.S. Posted July 7, 2011 Author Posted July 7, 2011 Let me chime in. Morning Tager forums. Dacid and Osuna are both right in this regard. Being bad and complaining is a stage a lot of people go through when maining a bad character, sometimes they have to just flail around helplessly to get wins or do stupid random to even lay a hand on someone. Just a stage like I said, some of us are still in it while others just got in it, then its those few who managed to surpass it and just focus on covering up your weaknesses. Dacid is right that negativity spreads but Osuna is right in the fact that people have to talk about it. Seriously back in the early games I was stuck in the "my character is bad" stage after awhile but thanks to my drive to get better and my new way at looking at things I don't really worry about how bad the match ups are, except for Hazama but that is another day. Also if you ask me I liked CS1 Tager the best. Do you know how gimmicky I play thanks to the fact that 2C>4D is gone? Holy crap if you guys seen me play in one of my non-crappy matches you wouldn't believe the dumb stuff I try to get away with.
Koopa_Klawz Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 like 2C > 3C > RC > wait a bit and hope the oppenent throws out a move > 360?
CrazyI-nomitsu Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) Question: How good would Tager be if he had 22D and 4D in CT? Edit: In my opinion, if you have a match up where one moves stops you. It makes the game look bad. Who watch or play someone that needs to do one move to stop your character? Edited July 7, 2011 by CrazyI-nomitsu
A.X.I.S. Posted July 7, 2011 Author Posted July 7, 2011 like 2C > 3C > RC > wait a bit and hope the oppenent throws out a move > 360? 2C>3C>RC>random shit 2C>RC walk random shit 6A>RC random shit Random shit as in when I know I have brain fart to catch my opponent.
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