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[Milln]

Well you do play Mitsuru. In my opinion she kinda just does things and stuffs everyone else. If you hit, hey great we do a combo, but if you miss, then, well, you're going to do whatever it is what you were going to do anyway. Cause you're Mitsuru. Aigis is the same way, I think those two characters look hella stale and it's because they don't have to change anything up, they're so good.

And that's why Milln refuses to play those characters. I'll play KOF if I want to do things only slightly different and love it. KOF is a great game.

But don't get discouraged! If you find your character getting stagnant, strike out on your own! Don't depend on the boards to tell you what's available, discover something on your time. I contribute to tge wiki and the boards. Most of my Yosuke stuff I created and thought up, and I found so much at once, I'm still working on mixing it all in with my regular play. Once I get that hammered out I will be the Yosuke God, and I'll keep thinking of even more jokes and setups. Take your Mitsuru to the next level using your own power! *shiiiiine!*

And then we'll just continue to call your character and whatever you came up with dumb. Haha

Edited September 7, 2012 by Milln

[LastStarSaviour]

Well you do play Mitsuru. In my opinion she kinda just does things and stuffs everyone else. If you hit, hey great we do a combo, but if you miss, then, well, you're going to do whatever it is what you were going to do anyway. Cause you're Mitsuru. Aigis is the same way, I think those two characters look hella stale and it's because they don't have to change anything up, they're so good.

And that's why Milln refuses to play those characters. I'll play KOF if I want to do things only slightly different and love it. KOF is a great game.

But don't get discouraged! If you find your character getting stagnant, strike out on your own! Don't depend on the boards to tell you what's available, discover something on your time. I contribute to tge wiki and the boards. Most of my Yosuke stuff I created and thought up, and I found so much at once, I'm still working on mixing it all in with my regular play. Once I get that hammered out I will be the Yosuke God, and I'll keep thinking of even more jokes and setups. Take your Mitsuru to the next level using your own power! *shiiiiine!*

And then we'll just continue to call your character and whatever you came up with dumb. Haha

Uhh....Sure, I guess. Was that supposed to be motivational? Sounded more like you're feeling yourself too hard bro.

[Klein]

I hear everyone coming up up with new tech and what-not and it kind of shows me how limited Mitsuru is, in terms of character potential.

Pretty much why I don't play Mitsuru. She's still got all her tools, which are all amazing for basics. Buuuut, her potential is less interesting to me than someone I'd main.

[Milln]

This is why i don't give you advice, often.

I give you something to do that could help you and agree with why you feel the way you do, with the example that I've done it so anyone can do it, and you take it that I'm boasting.

[Alphakami]

So I got to play on XBL for a couple of nights. I'm still not doing any of Kanji's C or D normals ever. I wrecked every Yosuke player (thanks Milln) made a Aegis player rage when I found the angle to Air 214B thru her 2B bullet array, and got to play Banana Ken SSS rank, which I came very close to beating. Shadow Lab is pretty hard to deal with. I lost to a few Mitsuru's and one Labrys player that I ended up playing about 12 times, we went about 50/50. I played 1 Teddie, and got raped. Don't understand how to fight Teddie yet. I'm not really having any problems getting in on anyone, and it still feels like Kanji is an top tier chara with every tool he needs to wreck shit. I did not run into a single Yu player in the roughly 40 matches I've played.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

This is why i don't give you advice, often.

I give you something to do that could help you and agree with why you feel the way you do, with the example that I've done it so anyone can do it, and you take it that I'm boasting.

The example you used involved a character with a lot more potential than Mitsuru(this coming back to the original point), and the way you said it MIGHT have come across as assuming Star used a copy and paste playstyle instead of developing his own. It might have come across as him not trying to delve as hard into his main's potential as you did. I'm not picking sides this time, just playing devil's advocate before you go at each other's throats.

In any case, Elizabeth is rather the same in that regard. She just never feels boring because instead of worrying about the match-up, she's more about picking your opponent's brain. I can go toe to toe with Star's Mitsuru, but the instant I'm met with one who just kinda seems to do things, I'm lost. This is why I'm stuck at 653 PSR, people just kinda seem to say I'VE GOT TOOLS and throw them out constantly, a la Labrys JB. And they get S rank for it. I think in the end, you have to look at it like this - Don't seek satisfaction from playing the character match-up right, get it from the player match-up. That or find a new main.

[Astaroth136]

More potential than... Mitsuru?

A lot more potential than... Mitsuru?!

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

Yeah, Yosuke's got a very diverse range of playstyles, tricks, gimmicks and what-have-you. Mitsuru is rather straightforward. The only difference I ever see between Mitsurus is how often they coup droit and how they use bufu, and there's only so many different ways to use it. Honestly the only thing that holds Yosuke back from being S tier is his health.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Jackie Chandler]

This kind of thing happens with top tier characters all the time. People figure out a bunch of technology with them ASAP, because with great tools, they need the damage/setups to match. It in no way means that other characters have more or less potential- it just means that it's easier to discover potential in untapped characters. The only limits to your character's potential are your own playing style.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

I think you'd end up gimping yourself if you tried to diversify certain character's play styles just for the sake of uncovering potential. Some characters are just as they appear, and there isn't much more to them than that. Granted, discoveries might still be made, but for the most part Mitsuru's going to stay the way she is or risk harming her own effectiveness.

[Mr.Minionman]

I really don't feel like I'm learning anything playing online matches, but I don't really feel I have much opportunity to practice offline either. I'm trying to get hit-confirms under pressure. Vs the cpu I can do them without any problem (and practicing mixups on them is kinda silly), but against online opponents I feel most of what I try to punch out is dropped merely due to latency issues. Idk, just felt I needed someplace to rant.

What do you guys typically look to accomplish when you get online? I feel like going for big combos is somewhat of a waste, but at the same time I keep get stomped by some 2000 win Mr.Karate who can accomplish a full HD combo from any confirm...

[Klein]

I go online to practice simple hit confirms and learn matchups.

[Jackie Chandler]

I think you'd end up gimping yourself if you tried to diversify certain character's play styles just for the sake of uncovering potential. Some characters are just as they appear, and there isn't much more to them than that. Granted, discoveries might still be made, but for the most part Mitsuru's going to stay the way she is or risk harming her own effectiveness.

If everyone felt that way, nobody would learn anything new. There are countless ways to diversify your own individual playing style when meshed with the character you play's fighting style. You can switch up your combos for new setups. You can change the approach options you utilize. You can make use of uncommon moves in particular situations. Would it be more effective in terms of damage? Maybe, maybe not. The important thing is, they'd give you as a player more of a unique edge. The ability to surprise your opponent with your playing style is something valuable no matter what the fighting game. Of course, its effectiveness depends on HOW you're trying to surprise your opponent. DP'ing from full screen normally won't do you all that much good. Still, there are plenty of ways to open your opponent up outside your character's established BnB's/oki setups. You've just gotta find them yourself. :3

I really don't feel like I'm learning anything playing online matches, but I don't really feel I have much opportunity to practice offline either. I'm trying to get hit-confirms under pressure. Vs the cpu I can do them without any problem (and practicing mixups on them is kinda silly), but against online opponents I feel most of what I try to punch out is dropped merely due to latency issues. Idk, just felt I needed someplace to rant.

What do you guys typically look to accomplish when you get online? I feel like going for big combos is somewhat of a waste, but at the same time I keep get stomped by some 2000 win Mr.Karate who can accomplish a full HD combo from any confirm...

Yeah, KoF doesn't have the best netcode, and when you combine it with how non-lenient it can be with inputs, it makes a lot of online play different than local play. I mean, you probably won't go for an HD combo you're afraid you might drop due to latency problems, right?

However, I wouldn't let that determine what to practice for offline play. Don't just say "oh, it's too hard to get an HD combo online, so I just won't learn any." KoF's damage scaling is (IMO) kind of ridiculous, but not in a bad way. Seriously, the damage barely prorates at all. That means being able to capitalize on opportunities in KoF is incredibly valuable, albeit more difficult. Is it necessary? Not at all. KoF is a very fundamental-based game, and if you're confident you can save your meter during the combo and open up your opponent after it's done (maybe even by using said meter), that's fine too.

Basically, just look for the most efficient ways of using your resources- be it the combo starters you get, your spacing/footsies, or your meter. Online or offline, that's the best any of us can do.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

If everyone felt that way, nobody would learn anything new. There are countless ways to diversify your own individual playing style when meshed with the character you play's fighting style. You can switch up your combos for new setups. You can change the approach options you utilize. You can make use of uncommon moves in particular situations. Would it be more effective in terms of damage? Maybe, maybe not. The important thing is, they'd give you as a player more of a unique edge. The ability to surprise your opponent with your playing style is something valuable no matter what the fighting game. Of course, its effectiveness depends on HOW you're trying to surprise your opponent. DP'ing from full screen normally won't do you all that much good. Still, there are plenty of ways to open your opponent up outside your character's established BnB's/oki setups. You've just gotta find them yourself. :3

But I wasn't rating effectiveness in damage. In the end, new oki set-ups will have your opponent blocking just as much as they did before. Switching up your approach might be surprising initially, but mostly you'll just open holes in your offensive which make your pressure no longer dp safe. You'll sacrifice damage for the same end that you'd've gotten with your old oki set-up, and the surprise will only work once, and even that is unreliable. Uncommon moves might be more helpful, but the moveset in Persona is actually quite small. Each has their own individual use. Oki set-ups are for initiating block strings and thereby rock-paper-scissors games, or punishing mash. It doesn't make sense to try and surprise an opponent mid combo unless they've got poor observation skills, in which case your tactics are wasted over-kill.

[Milln]

Yeah, KOF online is pretty bogus. You live in Cookeville, don't you? See if you can get G-Ram or Arson to practice with you.

@Volpe, I see how that it might have been taken that way, but I've both played him and you guys know how I act. There's no way id mean it like that. =o

@Jackie Full screen DP works. A couple characters can swag through entire-field hitting supers with their reversal. =D

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

That feel when you completely download a player off of a single frustrating ranked match, fight them again, and read them like a book. MMMMMFFF.

[Milln]

That feel when you completely download a player off of a single frustrating ranked match, fight them again, and read them like a book. MMMMMFFF.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAKFlpdcfc

[Jackie Chandler]

But I wasn't rating effectiveness in damage. In the end, new oki set-ups will have your opponent blocking just as much as they did before. Switching up your approach might be surprising initially, but mostly you'll just open holes in your offensive which make your pressure no longer dp safe. You'll sacrifice damage for the same end that you'd've gotten with your old oki set-up, and the surprise will only work once, and even that is unreliable. Uncommon moves might be more helpful, but the moveset in Persona is actually quite small. Each has their own individual use. Oki set-ups are for initiating block strings and thereby rock-paper-scissors games, or punishing mash. It doesn't make sense to try and surprise an opponent mid combo unless they've got poor observation skills, in which case your tactics are wasted over-kill.

It's all subjective. It depends on what you're doing, who you're facing, what characters the two of you are playing, and what kind of resources you both have. They need to be applied to the context of a situation to be deemed effective or ineffective- you can't just say stuff like this will "only work once," "sacrifice damage," or "no longer be DP safe," because depending on the situation, they easily won't. And even if they are, fighting games are ALL about risks and rewards. The most efficient things in fighting games are always the least risky approaches that get rewarded the most. But sometimes if you want to get an opportunity for damage at all, you have to take a riskier approach that gets rewarded less. And sometimes, it'll actually be easier to catch your opponent that way.

@Jackie Full screen DP works. A couple characters can swag through entire-field hitting supers with their reversal. =D

Yeah, I love how Yukiko's is basically like "oh, you're doing a super? Here, let me heal like half my health bar really fast." XD

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

It's all subjective. It depends on what you're doing, who you're facing, what characters the two of you are playing, and what kind of resources you both have. They need to be applied to the context of a situation to be deemed effective or ineffective- you can't just say stuff like this will "only work once," "sacrifice damage," or "no longer be DP safe," because depending on the situation, they easily won't. And even if they are, fighting games are ALL about risks and rewards. The most efficient things in fighting games are always the least risky approaches that get rewarded the most. But sometimes if you want to get an opportunity for damage at all, you have to take a riskier approach that gets rewarded less. And sometimes, it'll actually be easier to catch your opponent that way.

Yeah, I love how Yukiko's is basically like "oh, you're doing a super? Here, let me heal like half my health bar really fast." XD

I get exactly what you're saying. I know the whole risk reward deal, it's a staple of fighters. I'm just saying some characters benefit more from it (like Elizabeth) She's ALL about risking everything for that gimmicky set-up or tricky mix up. I just don't see how it could help Mitsuru, since in the end all you have to do is -block- it and wait for an opening. The riskier your approach with her, the more holes there are and the more you waste what makes her A tier. But in the end I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree, since neither of us truly understand Mitsuru. For all we know, Star might be cooking something up right now that will surprise me and validate your point.

@Milln: -Flourish, bow.-

edit - Finally got out of my PSR rut and got my A rank back. Time for S.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Grimstar]

sup dawgs. I haven't played Persona once since the last tournament.

Blame Disgaea :d

[Astaroth136]

I finally got up to A rank earlier too (finally broke 100 ranked matches too lol). It's fun ranking people down in the process. Makes me yell, "Begone knave! Your peasantry ways are unwanted here."

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

A+. Nowhere to go but up. Just wish I'd get matches faster. :@ And yeah, it feels so good to rank people down, especially when they're bad match-ups. I've downloaded this one Mitsuru and dragged him out of A+, and he used to be S. Baiting his bursts and punishing him for 6k feels too good.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Milln]

Jackie and I must be the only ones with the position "I'm sorry, but I can't lose!" when we make someone rank down. I sent apology letters to each of the two people I bumped down and they were met colloquially.

[Boss]

Very interesting topic on character potential guys. I can agree with everything Volce is saying regarding Brosuke. I feel like he's one of those characters that can be unbeatable in the right hands same for Aigis, Yu, and Naoto. Yes. Naoto. All 4 of those characters I feel have literally everything they need to completely dominate in the right hands. Mitsuru I feel is a "good" character but only gets over because of her ridiculous damage output. Without that, what does she have that will make you afraid of her?

Naoto on the other hand I feel is really slept on. She can completely control the pace of the match with her full screen gun shots and traps. You have to deal with those things. There is no way around it. Get hit, dispose of the trap, wait for it to go away, or try to dodge it. All the while she is free to do as she pleases. Things like that are excellent for strategy. Not to mention her damage is pretty dumb as well and she can instant kill you in combos. Screw the low health con. Everyone dies fast against the tops.

Aigis. She's unblockable AND she kills you when she touches you. The amount of mixup potential in that character is ridiculous and they all lead to half life combos. She might as well be in Marvel 3.

Yosuke. If this guy was a little easier to play, he would be right under Aigis(who i think is literally the best in the game) only because he has low damage output. However, if you can consistently use the "glide" tech then what is anyone gonna do to him? You can't catch him, he'll dodge your projectiles, and good luck trying to react to whatever he tries to do when he does attack. That however is just one playstyle. He can play real basic and still get the job done with his good normals, walk speed, and excellent DP. He's underrated as well imo.

Yu. He has everything. Just nothing overly spectacular but that's okay. He has the tools and that's all he needs.

Persona is a really great game guys. Everyone is viable and everyone can definitely win in the right hands. More people need to realize this and play this damn game.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Boss

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

That moment when you can't apply FULL SCREEN OKI to a Mitsuru because she has 100 heat. . . Nevermind what I said about useless ultimates, lol.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio