Middle Tennessee Needs Gaming! Monthly Versus Tourneys - Antioch, TN

[Milln]

For the record, Yosuke isn't rush down. He's neutral game in-n-out mixup. He hates being in people's faces unless they're not blocking.

Then again I don't think Akihiko is rush down either.

Labrys is crossup+spacing

Yukiko is Zone+spacing

Elizabeth is, in Volpe's paraphrased words "gimmick zoning"

Naoto is zoning, anti-neutral game

Teddie is.... I don't even know. Teddie is Faust in bear form.

Before I get jumped on, everyone has elements of everything, the anode is just what feel

Their strong points are

Edited September 21, 2012 by Milln

[LastStarSaviour]

Surpised the list wasn't:

Me/Mitsuru - Neutral game w/anti-zoning tools character (Little to no bad match-ups)

Bishop/Chie - Rushdown character with amazing Oki

???/Yosuke (we have like 3 of them?) - Neutral game character with Anti-zoning tools and strong mix-up

Woz/Shadow Labrys - Rushdown/puppet character with strong mix-up (Not many people know how to fight her)

Volpe/Elizabeth (because we have no Naoto or Yukihoe players) - Zoning/grappler with scary mind-games and damage

Edit: Yup, because the reason Akihiko has anti-zoning tools that don't work that well and no range is because he's not a rushdown character. I'd leave Teddie as a neutral game character due to his various items and spacing tools.

Edit again: Okay, before we try to put these characters into classes, can we first establish what all of these classes are? I swear there's like a dozen of them.

Edited September 21, 2012 by LastStarSaviour

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

For the record, Yosuke isn't rush down. He's neutral game in-n-out mixup. He hates being in people's faces unless they're not blocking.

Then again I don't think Akihiko is rush down either.

Labrys is crossup+spacing

Yukiko is Zone+spacing

Elizabeth is, in Volpe's paraphrased words "gimmick zoning"

Naoto is zoning, anti-neutral game

Teddie is.... I don't even know. Teddie is Faust in bear form.

Akihiko is the embodiment of rush-down.

Yukiko is pure zoning. Spacing would typically be implied by zoning.

Elizabeth is more like a gimmick mix-up rush-down puppet master that grapples and zones. Looking back on that. . . wtf elizabeth, lol

Teddie is spot on.

I don't know enough about Naoto to say anything.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Seiki]

It's an anime fighter, rushdown dominates. And the fact that these rushdown characters have answers to zoning means they get to play their game most of the match. What I mean by variety, is I suppose each character's unique ability to stop zoning.

I wouldn't say Kanji's anti-zoning tools warrants them as legitimate threats to zoners... The lighting is slow and predictable and his dive attack doesn't work well against yukiko and naoto. Kanji overall is more like anti-rushdown just because it's really scary to be near him.

Shadow Labrys can ruin Naoto's zoning by making her shadow block shots and hit traps for her. In that matchup she is anti-zoning.

And, Akihiko is the epitome of a rushdown character. He has to stay close to his opponent in order to establish his game and he has to be aggressive about it.

I agree Yosuke isn't purely rushdown. He is hit and run.

[Urichinan]

I would say that Shadow Labrys is a good pick to counter Naoto and Yukiko. She gets killed by Yosuke and Teddie though.

[LastStarSaviour]

Actually, thinking about it now, what we need is people based on their player skill, not the characters themselves. Top 5 anyone?

[Milln]

Mm, lemme clarify. My personal description of rushdown is being able to get from full screen easily to the opponent's face and stay there for the rest of the match while limiting the opponent's escape options. Akihiko has a little trouble getting in and controlling the flow of the match, which is I, personally, wouldn't put him completely in the rushdown category. Once he's in he's fantastic and the Soul of a Boxer.

Classifying by current Player skill could be inaccurate in the upcoming months. Also if we take top placers, double elimination brackets can be inaccurate.

[LastStarSaviour]

Soooo....Chie isn't a rush-down character either then?

[Milln]

Soooo....Chie isn't a rush-down character either then?

Chie is. She doesn't really have a problem getting in and establishing her gameplan. If she gets knocked away, she can get in without much trouble and definitely with less hassle than Akihiko. Especially with Meteors.

[LastStarSaviour]

Akihiko has a fullscreen super as well even though they both have to be in awakening. She has normals with slightly better reach but nothing that puts her too far ahead of Akihiko. What she doesn't have is a command move that can shoot her full-screen like Akihiko's kill-rush. Honestly, i'd say Akihiko is more of a rush-down character than Chie. His pressure if you ask me is on par with Chie's minus Chie's retarded oki.

Edit: I see what you mean. I just feel that we shouldn't establish teams based on characters now that i'm starting to process and break things down.

Edited September 21, 2012 by LastStarSaviour

[Milln]

Akihiko has a fullscreen super as well even though they both have to be in awakening. She has normals with slightly better reach but nothing that puts her too far ahead of Akihiko. What she doesn't have is a command move that can shoot her full-screen like Akihiko's kill-rush. Honestly, i'd say Akihiko is more of a rush-down character than Chie. His pressure if you ask me is on par with Chie's minus Chie's retarded oki.

If we're comparing Chie to Akihiko, Meteors only take 50 meter, while Akihiko Maziodyne > OMC (This is what you're referring to, right?) takes 100. Kill Rush isn't a move that needs to be used raw like that very often. As a Yosuke player, if I smell one coming, i'm going to low profile it or just give him the 5C boot since the punches don't come out till he reaches the player character.

You can't just cut out Chie's okizeme like that to say that Akihiko is on par with her without it, because she -does- have it.

[LastStarSaviour]

But Chie doesn't have Kill rush, that's what i'm getting at. She has to rely on running and jumping to get in, as to where Akihiko has A MOVE that throws him at the opponent swinging his fists! You can sweep someone who's running in the same way you can sweep someone mis-using Kill rush. She has no moves that cover space in such a quick amount of time.

Yeah, he has to spend more meter, but the fact of the matter is, if he uses it with 100 meter, he gets in for free. Which is the purpose. Not to get a hit, or to gain anything other than favorable positioning. There are ways to work around Chie's meteors because they don't cover the entire screen. With Akihiko's full-screen super, you HAVE to block and let him get in.

[Seiki]

Mm, lemme clarify. My personal description of rushdown is being able to get from full screen easily to the opponent's face

If a rushdown character can do that...then they aren't balanced correctly. The way a character who is rewarded greatly for being in your face is balanced is that they struggle to go in against a character who can controls space who in turn struggle to keep someone out once said character goes in. What you are saying is an overpowered rushdown character, a character with both the ability to neglect keepaway and is able to rape you up close. But generally, a rushdown character is supposed to have a weakness, like any other type of character, and that is the ability to go in on someone who can control space.

Akihiko can be in your face really quickly but those tools are inherently risky. He can use duck special which is fast but he is vulnerable throughout the whole thing and it doesn't dodge all projectiles since it's only upper body invincible i.e. Liz disruptor can hit him when doing it. He can ex corkscrew which is super fast, moves him a great distance, is an attack, plus it has guardpoint/super armor only problem is if they block it's extremely punishable. But he isn't a rushdown character because of those things. He is a rushdown character because he has a lot of great close up tools that forces the opponent to block and guess. That is what makes a character a rushdown type.

Also lol at raw killrush. It has little to no priority. You can jab him before he gets to punch you and it's really easy to miss with it. The punch animation activates when he gets in a certain proximity of the opponent and it's easy to bait someone who likes to do raw killrush as a go in tool and make the punch animation activate and whiff by just moving around the screen (like you aren't doing that already).

Edited September 21, 2012 by Seiki

[LastStarSaviour]

I'm not talking about wether the move is good or not, i'm talking about the fact THAT HE HAS THE MOVE!! HE HAS THE MOVE!!!

Yes, it does carry risk, like a proper rushdown character should, as you've stated Naimat. What i'm trying to point out is that, in terms of tools to get in, Akihiko has what Chie lacks and they both have about the same tools once they're in.

My god people are making this hard.

[Seiki]

Chie's meteors are way better than Akihiko's Zio. Meteor's allow Chie to go in and last long enough for her to do a safe mixup off it. AKihiko's super doesn't have enough blockstun for him to get a mixup from fullscreen. It only gets him next to the opponent. If you are midscreen/close you get an unsafe mixup 100 heat for an unsafe mixup isn't worth it to me...And if you are wasting 100 meter to establish a mixup off Zio the opponent can just spend 50 heat to Counter Assault. You lose two things: 1)the opponent spent 50 heat to your 100..so you lose the meter battle and 2)most counter assaults push you far away...so you wasted 100 meter to be put back in the same situation you were in before.

[Milln]

Before I get jumped on, everyone has elements of everything, the anode is just what feel

Their strong points are

I'm being misunderstood, and my definition of rushdown is more or less the same as you all's but it's different enough to where I'm being looked at like i'm in the wrong. Just gonna leave the above quote and back out with I didn't actually say what archetype of character I think Akihiko is, I only said he wasn't full-on rushdown.

We should also come up with a three-person loadout should it come to pass that a state isn't able to bring a full five. (As in we might have to donate the Tennessee player that loves Michigan the most to be on their team under the moniker Undercover Spy)

[Seiki]

I guess I understated how terrible killrush is as a gap closer...unless you are doing something super slow from far away (which idk why you would) or are jumping and I do killrush really early...like way before you decide to jump...then you shouldn't be hit by it. Meaning you can't argue it's a viable tool...it can be used to punish things like a bad moon assault by yosuke or his kunai throw, A bad Ceasar slash by akihiko, maybe a whiffed b move by mitsuru (but you wouldn't be able to punish on reaction) but it's not a reliable gap closer by any means. I'd rather use ducking since it does the same thing, is faster, covers more distance, and i won't risk looking like an idiot when killrush activates the punch animation and its me whiffing a flurry of punches for 50 or so frames asking to be fatal countered.

[LastStarSaviour]

Again, you aren't getting what i'm saying. You aren't using the moves to establish "safe mix-up". You're using the moves to get next to your opponent. In that regard, Akihiko's Zio works better. If a chie throws out meteors, you have the option to jump them, roll them, or get hit by them. If you jump block them, you negate her mix-up. If you roll them, depending on where you are when they come out, you can get out of the situation safe.

With Aki's Zio, no matter where you are on screen, you get hit. If you roll, you get hit (no matter where you are on screen and now you're paralyzed), if you try to jump, Aki gets in for free and now you're forced to block him.

[Seiki]

if you are wasting 100 meter to establish a mixup off Zio the opponent can just spend 50 heat to Counter Assault. You lose two things: 1)the opponent spent 50 heat to your 100..so you lose the meter battle and 2)most counter assaults push you far away...so you wasted 100 meter to be put back in the same situation you were in before.

You aren't forced to block so long as you have 50 heat. And if you argue that you can punish CA if you read it...is it really worth it...for 100 meter to have to do two layers of reading? One for the CA and after that another for a mixup? And his mixup game is not very strong without atleast 25 heat so technically a setup that requires 125 heat? That's too expensive. If I am going to have to do two layers of reading I'd rather ex corkscrew and omc for 75 heat instead. And Again FULLSCREEN DOESN'T have enough blockstun. So you aren't forced to block him. You can roll, dp, or press a button to counter hit him if you think he is going to try to throw. It's an equal risk for both parties. Nothing in favor of Akihiko and it costs 100 heat?? Zio OMC mixup is only useful if you do it midrange or closer and excorkscrew omc can do the same thing.

Chie can move in to about 3/4 of fullscreen and do meteors. Even if you jump not enough meteors reach you to keep you in the air but enough hit you to force you to block on the ground.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Seiki

[LastStarSaviour]

If you know the counter-assault is coming, why not simply All-Out Attack? It eats counter-assaults, most DPs, throws, and pokes. If they roll they aren't in a position where they can punish your All-Out Attack for much (depending on what character you are). As for Aki's mix-up game, I can't say much about it without meter, but he does have really strong DP and roll-safe pressure, if you're fundamentally sound. He easily is able to lock someone down just as effectively as Chie.

Edit: Leaving this little bit here and then i'm done with this conversation. On reaction to Chie's Meteors, you can run up and roll through them. No matter where she is on screen. On reaction to Aki's Zio, you have to block, no matter what.

Edited September 21, 2012 by LastStarSaviour

[Seiki]

Uh...akihiko's all out attack is 27 frames. It's reactable so throwing it out raw doesn't help and it's not like Yu's where there is a giant stream of lightning covering his ass you can see akihiko. The super armor on all out attack isn't until a few frames into the move, meaning a preemptive attempt at stuffing it with a standing jab works if they predict you are going to overhead (just tested it with chie), but they don't have to. A raw all out attack is fairly easy to see coming and you can block and punish. If a dude is going to DP due to wanting to stuff your attack attempt (all out attack or any attack for that matter) he/she will hit you before the super armor activates since the dp hitbox activates much faster than the super armor and this is refering to hit type dps like mitsuru and yu. If it's a counter type dp they'll just counter your all out attack.

I just tested the Chie Meteors thing. What do you mean run up and roll? I always get counterhited out of my roll No matter where I am on the screen. Even if you are a few feet away from her and you do it you end up on the other side of her but she has meteors that cover part of the area behind her and you are forced to block or you get hit out of the roll. Unless you are literally right next to her can you roll out safely and end up far enough behind her to where the meteors don't hit but why would she use meteors when you are right next to her...

Yes you have to block aki's super but it doesn't matter when the mixup he gets off of it is really weak...and not worth the meter...

I'm going to bed.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Seiki

[Lord Knight]

you guys sleeping on akihiko....

[Tophatmoffet]

Holy shit its LK. I should probably pay attention to this akihiko discussion.

[Jackie Chandler]

> Sees LK post in the thread

> Immediately starts caring

On a side note, I love it when Arc fighting game celebrities pop out of nowhere to comment here. Now I just need SKD to post for "Dustloop Celebrity Bingo."

[Milln]

Pretty sure we aren't sleeping on Akihiko when the character makes up a good percentage of the character spread in the area. Talking about Akihiko's weaknesses doesn't mean anyone is sleeping on him.