Middle Tennessee Needs Gaming! Monthly Versus Tourneys - Antioch, TN

[Urichinan]

@uri: It seems to me that Julia's damage is not that great, but her ability to open opponents up is pretty solid. High execution, stacks of options. Do you think that is accurate?

Somewhat, she's pretty meter intensive when it comes to scoring high damage. Thanks to EX Arrow causing a wall-bounce now she can get around 400+ for only a single bar from cr.MP hit-confirms and the like. I do agree that she's all about opening people up though, as she has such good range and frame advantage on her normals, sadly she received some pretty heavy nerfs in the patch, and that hurt her pressure game a fair bit. Some aspects of her game I feel were improved overall though, especially in terms of hit-confirming.

She does great as a tag parter too, since she can score such huge damage from a tag cancel with F+HP > MP > cr.HP > Tiger Strike. She also has amazing combo potential with a lot of characters due to the flexibility of her move-set. Overall I think she is one of the stronger characters in Ver. 2013, but I don't play the game competitively at all, so I can't really say anything of value in terms of character strength.

EDIT: I have never played Persona in a competitive setting outside of the KotB tournament, so the only experience I have ever had with the game has come from netplay. Because of that, I can't judge match-ups well. I rarely fight against people of a strong level, and when I do, netplay does it's thing and makes it hard to take anything away from the experience. Having said that, what little I have been able to take away from some good players I have fought online, I can say that there are some pretty terrible match-ups in this game. I don't completely agree with the notion of Mitsuru vs. Liz being 7-3, but I'm not going to argue against it, as I haven't seen two top players go at it in a competitive atmosphere, making it hard for me to determine anything definite about the match-up. I do think it is in Mitsuru's favor though, as most of her match-ups are.

I am pretty comfortable with the notion that Chie vs. Labrys is 7-3 though, I have seen that match-up MANY times in countless different settings, and I see no way for Labrys to ever win that fight.

This discussion does interest me, though I'm going to sit out of it past this post, and let you guys go at it. While you are all discussing this, I'd also like to hear what you guys think of Shadow Labrys's match-ups, and who you think she is the best/worst against. (In my opinion, Chie and Teddie are her worst match-ups, and Yukiko and Naoto are her best)

Edited February 18, 2013 by Urichinan

[Anne]

I'm not so sure Liz belongs in the bottom tier anymore. The problem with Kanji and Labrys is that on top of being bad characters in the first place, they're also simple characters so they couldn't develop any new strats. Players have to rely on pure fundamentals. Liz has poor tools but there's been some ridiculous discoveries with her over time that make her significantly more reliable and tricky. I'm hoping that I'm good enough to show it at Winter Brawl.

I agree. I've been trying so hard to find anything with Labby and she just doesn't have enough to get creative or be effective with. I've noticed all sorts of new Liz stuff lately, she's definitely not up there but probably above where Lab/Kanji are at.

Edit: I was also wrong about FE: Awakening at dinner, it's some thing that happens with Chrom -_-

Edited February 18, 2013 by AnneIFrank

[tret_tree]

ITT: People like to argue but not really. lol

Great tournament, great experience. This past weekend was fantastic. These tournaments are getting better and better the more I go. I played quite a bit of Gear and got quite a bit of varied matchup experience as a result.

Thanks to Milln for housing us and setting out an alarm for us... that nobody got up for. I'd come out to Kaos Theory a lot more than I do if I could split the cost of gas with the poor college kids I take as passengers, I've immensely enjoyed every opportunity I've had to go.

Thanks to The Bearded One for the Slayer experience, Anne Frank for the Bridget experience, Last Star for the Millia experience, and Naimat for the words of encouragement and the Johnny experience.

Getting bodied by Phil is revealing. I freaked out so hard when I won a round on his May by just spamming knee rockets at him to the point that I didn't notice he wasn't falling for it after the first couple of rounds. I feel like I really underrepresented myself there. :C

Sid vs Wes is still a bad match-up for everybody involved. Salty seas ahoy.

I've begun actually attempting air combos I've practiced off of random hits, I've pushed fewer bad buttons in neutral, and my pressure is slowly getting less braindead, particularly when I catch myself auto-piloting 2K 2S 2D. On the flip side, my rare attempted combos are usually dropped or inefficient, I've picked up a bad habit of being a bit overzealous with risky knee rockets and 5HS FRC at neutral, and my pressure is still mostly braindead. Overall, though, I've felt a general improvement all around on . I feel like I'm getting closer to breaking down a few of my current developmental barriers.

[Klein]

Thing is the 7-3s in this game don't look anything like 7-3s in any other game. SF 7-3s are much worse than anything I've seen in this game.

This is something I've never really understood. SF players treat matchups like 5-5 is okay, 6-4 is hard as shit, and 7-3 is completely unwinnable. I don't get how the ratios work out, lol.

Also, I don't play Persona Ultimate in matchups arena, but I know we don't need to get personal over matchup discussion, keep it in your pants Star and anyone else wanting to do such behaviors.

[LastStarSaviour]

Also, I don't play Persona Ultimate in matchups arena, but I know we don't need to get personal over matchup discussion, keep it in your pants Star and anyone else wanting to do such behaviors.

I won't argue with you...

[Anne]

This is something I've never really understood. SF players treat matchups like 5-5 is okay, 6-4 is hard as shit, and 7-3 is completely unwinnable. I don't get how the ratios work out, lol.

Also, I don't play Persona Ultimate in matchups arena, but I know we don't need to get personal over matchup discussion, keep it in your pants Star and anyone else wanting to do such behaviors.

I don't get the ratios either. When I look at something like Gief - Sagat it's a 3-7 on most MU charts but almost everybody agrees it's more like 8-2 but refuses to say it. Even the most extreme MUs like Blanka - Hawk or Hakan - Dhalsim people will say are basically unwinnable because one character nukes every tool the other character has, but it's still a 7-3 for some reason. I get not wanting to have huge disparities in MU charts, but it's weird to actually look at.

Edited February 18, 2013 by AnneIFrank

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

At this point I wouldn't be able to contribute anything to this discussion, only echo better players than myself. Still, when the best Liz players agree that we're sleeping on the Mits' match-up, I tend to listen. Especially when they fight Satoichi, LK, Star, etc to reach this conclusion.

@Star - the burden of proof lies on the claimant. While match-up discussions aren't exactly a science, you need to back your position up or simply refuse to argue from the beginning.

@Zomb - If you seriously believe that a certain match-up requires a counter-pick, how can you turn around and still believe that character is competitively viable? This doesn't make sense to me.

Regardless of the match-up's arbitrary value, next time I'm going to stuff Zomb's pocket Mitsuru.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Kyle]

VSAV Quickies #4 Throws Advanced

[Astaroth136]

I don't get the ratios either. When I look at something like Gief - Sagat it's a 3-7 on most MU charts but almost everybody agrees it's more like 8-2 but refuses to say it. Even the most extreme MUs like Blanka - Hawk or Hakan - Dhalsim people will say are basically unwinnable because one character nukes every tool the other character has, but it's still a 7-3 for some reason. I get not wanting to have huge disparities in MU charts, but it's weird to actually look at.

I think it's because even in the worst matchups, the underdog can truly pull out those wins 30% of the time. Remember, all it takes is that one knockdown/grapple to completely turn the match around.

In CT, people said Nu/Tager was 8-2, but I felt it was more 7-3 or 7.2-2.5. Hell, it was harder fighting Litchi and her instant overheads in CS.

[LastStarSaviour]

@Star - the burden of proof lies on the claimant. While match-up discussions aren't exactly a science, you need to back your position up or simply refuse to argue from the beginning.

I won't argue with you....

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

I won't argue with you....

There's nothing to argue about this, it's a basic rule of debate. . . There's no point in making your point if you aren't going to back it up, so why say anything in the first place?

On another note: fuck the sun and its gay ass bullshit. I feel sorry for you poor bastards who had to work.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[LastStarSaviour]

There's nothing to argue about this, it's a basic rule of debate. . . There's no point in making your point if you aren't going to back it up, so why say anything in the first place

I won't argue with you...confrontation is bad

[Urichinan]

I won't argue with you...confrontation is bad

Confrontation is the only way anything can ever be resolved.

I typically try to be nice around the forums, but Star, you've been making yourself look really moronic and petty lately. Not only have you been extremely opinionated and hardheaded, but you refuse to have a conversation with anyone who disagrees with you. From my point of view, it seems that you don't want to admit you're wrong about anything.

If you're going to start throwing around crap, bashing/praising games, or try to prove/disprove something, you need to start backing yourself up with some information, as Volpe said. Otherwise you just look like an angry dude who likes to throw around meaningless opinions.

[Mr.Minionman]

This discussion does interest me, though I'm going to sit out of it past this post, and let you guys go at it. While you are all discussing this, I'd also like to hear what you guys think of Shadow Labrys's match-ups, and who you think she is the best/worst against. (In my opinion, Chie and Teddie are her worst match-ups, and Yukiko and Naoto are her best)

I'd be interested in opinions here as well :o

At risk of sounding salty on matches with Cookeville peers (Pap, Bane, Tret), I think Teddie is her worst by a large margin. He trivializes and even benefits off of any attempt to control space with Asterius, and completely ignores nearly all of her oki tools with going timing on his dp. After Teddie, just Mitsuru and maaaybe Yosuke are bad, but they certainly feel much more fair to me. For most of the rest of the cast Slab seems to be capable of just playing the neutral well and excelling, I agree Naoto and Yukiko seems rigged in our favor, and I'd include Akihiko and Labrys in her positive matchups as well. I really haven't fought enough Chies to have much of an opinion on her, but the rest of Slabs matchups seem fair. Elizabeth is tough, but I know most of my troubles I've had with her are my own fault. Yu can be silly to fight too, but he gets hit by 2C as much as anyone else :P

[Bane]

Ggs to everyone this weekend. I may have gotten enough salt to keep my foods seasoned until the next time I come up there.

Shout out to Milln for being a boss. Thanks for organizing everything and giving us shelter. Keep up that Yosuke tech.

Shout out to Phil for kicking my ass in gear. I wish I could have taken more out of it other than realizing my own inability to not get hit by everything. Jam combos and frame data, I know. Blockstrings, mixups, gimmicks, and neutral? Much work is needed.

Shout out to Klein for teaching me what Slayer is capable of. Hopefully I won't get bodied as much next time.

Shout out to Papstr for being the wonderful scumbag he is. Seeing ABA get riot stomped several times in a row right after being instant killed may have been the highlight of the weekend.

Shout out to that Hakumen (I think it was skeletal?) who made me realize just how much work I need in Blazblue to play on a competitive level. I'm inclined to go buy extend once I have access to my PS3 again. I feel like this is the series I want to main.

Shout out to Sid for making me fear the air so much that I literally went through a match without jumping. Eventually I'll figure out how to not suck. Until then, keep grabbing and forcing me to stay on the ground.

All in all, it was a wonderful weekend. I hope to see you all again soon.

[Alphakami]

@Uri: I agree with most everything you said. My only problem is I can't find a reliable way for Julia to set up King for his 9+MK Rising Knee move, other than off of an EX Lunging Arrow, and then it's not worth using the 2nd meter as far as I can tell. You mind taking a shot to see if you can find something?

I had some kinda fucked up dream last night. It was Alladin themed, Milln was the genie, but he just looked like his normal self but talked like Robin Williams, and Star was Iago, Jaffar's bird. We all wanted to go to a tournament in Japan, so Milln turned Star into a gigantic version of Iago and told everyone to climb on his back. No one wanted to fly Star Air to Japan and I remember hearing Robin Williams in my dreams saying "I'm not arguing with you" so everyone got on the bird plane and we flew to Japan.

[ZomB]

@Zomb - If you seriously believe that a certain match-up requires a counter-pick, how can you turn around and still believe that character is competitively viable? This doesn't make sense to me.

Regardless of the match-up's arbitrary value, next time I'm going to stuff Zomb's pocket Mitsuru.

I can't even find where I said that. Well I don't think that Liz has any other matchups that demand a counterpick, but competitively viable characters and even top tier chars have had shitty matchups in the past(SF especially)

You COULD win the matchup with Liz, and I would certainly encourage everyone to try, but on the other hand I think the matchup more or less revolves around Mitsuru making a mistake - which isn't something that needs to happen. In the end, each player has to make their own decision though. I'm of the opinion that we won't see any Liz winning majors without a pocket char for the Mits matchup.

I look forward to my Mitsuru's impending death.

On Shadow Labrys:

Teddie is pretty bad for her, but it's not unwinnable. Some other chars might be annoying, but I don't think she has any other real problem matches. Chie does have some strong tools against her, but also has some of the worst defense against her setups.

Edited February 18, 2013 by ZomB

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

I can't even find where I said that. Well I don't think that Liz has any other matchups that demand a counterpick, but competitively viable characters and even top tier chars have had shitty matchups in the past(SF especially)

You COULD win the matchup with Liz, and I would certainly encourage everyone to try, but on the other hand I think the matchup more or less revolves around Mitsuru making a mistake - which isn't something that needs to happen. In the end, each player has to make their own decision though. I'm of the opinion that we won't see any Liz winning majors without a pocket char for the Mits matchup.

Nah, I'm not saying you said that. I'm just saying that when tiers are discussed, everyone seems to be like "Liz is viable, BUT. . ."

To me, being viable means you can win tournaments. You didn't seem to believe Liz isn't competitively viable, so when you said you should counter-pick Mitsuru, it seemed contradictory to me.

I had some kinda fucked up dream last night. It was Alladin themed, Milln was the genie, but he just looked like his normal self but talked like Robin Williams, and Star was Iago, Jaffar's bird. We all wanted to go to a tournament in Japan, so Milln turned Star into a gigantic version of Iago and told everyone to climb on his back. No one wanted to fly Star Air to Japan and I remember hearing Robin Williams in my dreams saying "I'm not arguing with you" so everyone got on the bird plane and we flew to Japan.

Holy shit, lmfao.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Jackie Chandler]

@Matchups Discussion: We could assess the strengths and weaknesses of characters all day, and still each come up with different matchup numbers. Matchup charts and tier lists aren't facts- they're educated judgements based on a person or group's personal outlooks, which are all completely subjective. It's easy to come to a consensus and say "wow, it's really hard for someone playing that grappler to beat a good player playing that zoner," or "man, that character doesn't have as many good options in that situation as other characters." But when you try to assign arbitrary point values to those judgements and try to play your numbers off as fact, you're inviting people to disagree with you.

I respect Star's decision to state his opinion and leave it at that in this instance. There's no sense in having a heated back-and-forth over opinions, especially when it's clear that you aren't going to change people's outlooks, and there's absolutely no reason to try goading someone into doing so to the point that he needs to reiterate his stance for five consecutive posts. If you think someone is wrong in his conclusions, there's nothing stopping you from stating why you think so, and either leaving it at that or picking up the discussion with someone else. But in my book, you don't win any brownie points by treating someone like an idiot when they don't explain why their opinion is different than yours.

To be clear, I'm not saying I condone the spread of unsupported opinions as fact. What I'm saying is, you can't expect people to always elaborate on why they feel a certain way about something, even when you can share plenty to show why you feel differently. And when they don't, I don't think it's right to keep egging them on about it.

Just my two cents.

[ZomB]

Well, I wouldn't be afraid to counterpick my Mitsuru against any Liz, if my Chie didn't work out. By your definition of winning a major tournament solo, no I don't think she's competitively viable. It might still happen, but I would be genuinely surprised. If I heard a Liz player who picked chie/yosuke/naoto/slab w/e vs Mitsuru won, I would be less surprised.

Edit: shoutouts to Jackie's outlook being reasonable despite his play style being completely unreasonable. I'd like to think I try to keep things from getting too heated talking about this stuff, I'm not going to egg on Star, even if he said the matchup was Liz favor, I would just be more curious to talk about tools. The truth is most Mits and most Liz players could definitely still improve at the matchup. So it's probably a little soon to talk about "endgame"

Edited February 18, 2013 by ZomB

[Urichinan]

@Uri: I agree with most everything you said. My only problem is I can't find a reliable way for Julia to set up King for his 9+MK Rising Knee move, other than off of an EX Lunging Arrow, and then it's not worth using the 2nd meter as far as I can tell. You mind taking a shot to see if you can find something?

I had some kinda fucked up dream last night. It was Alladin themed, Milln was the genie, but he just looked like his normal self but talked like Robin Williams, and Star was Iago, Jaffar's bird. We all wanted to go to a tournament in Japan, so Milln turned Star into a gigantic version of Iago and told everyone to climb on his back. No one wanted to fly Star Air to Japan and I remember hearing Robin Williams in my dreams saying "I'm not arguing with you" so everyone got on the bird plane and we flew to Japan.

Sure, I can do some testing. Your best bet is probably a Tag Launch cancel (I don't know the exact term for it, but you cancel a meterless tag launcher with a another tag, stopping the huge recovery and unscaling the damage by a large margin) or a HK DP Tag Cancel.

I'll try some stuff out later on today and get back to you with my findings, and I'll tell you if I find anything else new.

Also, that dream sounds amazing. Milln talking like Robin Williams is something I want to see in person.

EDIT: I totally forgot to mention that I bought a bunch of my favorite PS1 and PS2 games Saturday. Ty the Tasmanian Tiger 1, 2, and 3, Jak and Daxter 1, Capcom vs. SNK 2, Soul Calibur 2, and 3, Croc (PS1 game), and Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep (PSP game), for only $100! It was a good day.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Urichinan

[Anne]

I study game design so I find MUs and tiers to be fascinating ways of evaluating the game and certain design elements. P4U is especially neat with it's small roster and a lot of the design choices being geared towards normalizing the cast as far as options go. So please, talk about it without getting heated with some reasonable stuff to say. I could talk about the poor, sad story of Labby or the hilarity of Aigis all day if need be but I don't think there's much to be said.

[Alphakami]

Sure, I can do some testing. Your best bet is probably a Tag Launch cancel (I don't know the exact term for it, but you cancel a meterless tag launcher with a another tag, stopping the huge recovery and unscaling the damage by a large margin) or a HK DP Tag Cancel.

I'll try some stuff out later on today and get back to you with my findings, and I'll tell you if I find anything else new.

I didn't know Launcher Cancel unscaled damage at all! Derp.

[Urichinan]

I didn't know Launcher Cancel unscaled damage at all! Derp.

I don't think it completely unscales the damage, but I remember there being a whole video about it stopping the huge proration that gets thrown onto a Tag Launcher, allowing for better combos.

[Bane]

@slab v bear: Asterius being there makes many of the things Teddie does safe. There's no real risk for throwing out a 5B poke as long as Asterius is in the way, because hitting him makes it cancelable into anything. If slab is trying to antiair Teddie with Asterius nearby, Teddie can jB Asterius to avoid falling into the airunblockable and possibly get a CH jA on the way down. This is on top of the fact that Teddie can abuse Asterius to make sure slab doesn't have persona cards. His DP also nullifies slab's oki, which is another plus for him.

This is not to say she doesn't have ways to work things in her favor. Minion has taken plenty of games off me. It mainly involves mindgames, though. I'd go into further detail if I had the time.