Middle Tennessee Needs Gaming! Monthly Versus Tourneys - Antioch, TN

[Milln]

I've said it once, I'll say it again. Videos of new games are the new "Hey, I heard..." "Hey I read..."

[LastStarSaviour]

There issn't really much of a point to talking about fighters with you guys is there?

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

@Tad: I can dig it.

@Milln: I feel like that may be true on a person to person basis, but I still think you can learn things from vids. The meta is ALWAYS going to be developing, so things are always going to change even after we get the games in our hands. What works now may not work a few months from now. But it'll still work until we learn it doesn't.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Anne]

Fighting Games? I thought this was a men's health and fitness board, you might wanna try SRK.

[Urichinan]

Fighting Games? I thought this was a men's health and fitness board, you might wanna try SRK.

Bro, do you even lift?

Speaking of FIYTEN GAEMS Squigly has been fully funded for Skullgirls and will now be added into the game!

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/333003/

[Anne]

I don't even lift ;_;

But for real don't take things too seriously. I'm working on getting back to focusing on fun more in FGs and playing some other games to get my head on straight before being super competitive again. Go play some other stuff or get outside and run around for a bit and have fun. Play for fun and talk about it like it's a fun thing, not like it's SUPER SERIOUS BUSINESS GAIZ.

On another note I'll be hanging around Game Galaxy as usual tonight if any of you guys find your way there.

[Milln]

@Tad: I can dig it.

@Milln: I feel like that may be true on a person to person basis, but I still think you can learn things from vids.

You can learn things, yes. You can learn things from hearsay or articles, too. There's a flaw with videos, Especially, however, in that it directly depicts something. People (not necessarily you or I every time) can never recognize a match video for the metagame.

[Seiki]

There issn't really much of a point to talking about fighters with you guys is there?

Not when you say and think things likes this. No, there really isn't much of a point in talking to you about fighters.

[LastStarSaviour]

Not when you say and think things likes this. No, there really isn't much of a point in talking to you about fighters.

Why? Elaborate.

[Papstr]

I don't even lift ;_;

But for real don't take things too seriously. I'm working on getting back to focusing on fun more in FGs and playing some other games to get my head on straight before being super competitive again. Go play some other stuff or get outside and run around for a bit and have fun. Play for fun and talk about it like it's a fun thing, not like it's SUPER SERIOUS BUSINESS GAIZ.

This. Once you fools embrace the glory of "fuck everything I do what I want" you'll have an outlook in life about as awesome as mine. *Riot stomps out the window*

[Klein]

Do you mean like when I play slayer and grab you more than a Japanese girl in a train station? Phil's immune to my lewd ways.

Also, I'll start practicing for FR for reals soon, I promise <3

[Milln]

Do you mean like when I play slayer and grab you more than a Japanese girl in a train station? Phil's immune to my lewd ways.

Also, I'll start practicing for FR for reals soon, I promise <3

You said this a week ago! XD

[Tophatmoffet]

This. Once you fools embrace the glory of "fuck everything I do what I want" you'll have an outlook in life about as awesome as mine. *Riot stomps out the window*

Oh god I laughed harder than I should have.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

You can learn things, yes. You can learn things from hearsay or articles, too. There's a flaw with videos, Especially, however, in that it directly depicts something. People (not necessarily you or I every time) can never recognize a match video for the metagame.

The things you learn through hearsay are only as reliable as the person you heard them from. The flaw you bring up with videos isn't a flaw with videos; it's a flaw in a person's ability to analyze those videos. They are different from hearing something works because when you watch a video you can see that until a counter is developed, this tool WILL work in this situation, or this answer DOES work to negate this character's set-up.

As for your second point, that's the whole point of the term meta. Your perception of the match-ups, options, or tools that a character has shouldn't come from a single video, but rather a multitude of videos depicting the situations with slight variations so that you can get a firmer grasp on what's happening. This is why I make the distinction between Japan and America. Japan has a lot more higher level players than we do, and they fight far more often. They simply have much, much more data than we could ever hope to compile.

This is also why I respect the way Tad approaches this. It's a lot easier to get a feel for your options with your character when you're facing those situations yourself and experimenting, as opposed to compiling a shit ton of videos displaying that situation.

@AF - Yeah, I like to discuss stuff seriously. It helps me realize the flaws in my ways of thinking, it helps me to understand the way other people think, and it's just overall interesting to talk about. It doesn't mean I'm not gonna be laughing when it comes time to play the game, it's just food for thought, y'know?

Edited February 26, 2013 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Seiki]

Why? Elaborate.

When you say that there is no point in talking to us about fighters it reflects your mentality and approach to our opinions. It reflects your close minded neglect for criticism and opinions of others.

A quote to reflect on: "A good sailor does not fight the tides, he/she navigates them"

When Milln or anyone criticizes you have some balls and swallow it. You might learn and grow from it if you don't just dismiss what someone says upfront. The way you absorb knowledge right now Star is hindering your ability to become a better player, in my honest humble opinion.

[Milln]

The things you learn through hearsay are only as reliable as the person you heard them from. The flaw you bring up with videos isn't a flaw with videos; it's a flaw in a person's ability to analyze those videos. They are different from hearing something works because when you watch a video you can see that until a counter is developed, this tool WILL work in this situation, or this answer DOES work to negate this character's set-up.

As for your second point, that's the whole point of the term meta. Your perception of the match-ups, options, or tools that a character has shouldn't come from a single video, but rather a multitude of videos depicting the situations with slight variations so that you can get a firmer grasp on what's happening. This is why I make the distinction between Japan and America. Japan has a lot more higher level players than we do, and they fight far more often. They simply have much, much more data than we could ever hope to compile.

This is also why I respect the way Tad approaches this. It's a lot easier to get a feel for your options with your character when you're facing those situations yourself and experimenting, as opposed to compiling a shit ton of videos displaying that situation.

@AF - Yeah, I like to discuss stuff seriously. It helps me realize the flaws in my ways of thinking, it helps me to understand the way other people think, and it's just overall interesting to talk about. It doesn't mean I'm not gonna be laughing when it comes time to play the game, it's just food for thought, y'know?

I'm going to briefly reword your first two paragraphs and put them against videos:

The things you learn through videos are only as reliable as the person you're watching. Take King of Fighters. I play Mature. She has a weak frame trap after light clawdash (the single swipe. It's 214+B) that I get people with constantly. I've caught JFord, Patrick, Naimat, the people I played against in Final Round last year, Arson, G-Ram, Jason, Shinblade, everyone with it back when I played. If you saw videos of this, you'd think, "Man, just block. Nothing gets through it." but almost anything faster than 8 frames beats it and that's a lot. Pretty much any DP (they come out in 4) beats it, most supers, and heck most Close C's will beat it out. It's just a weird timing thing because the blockstun is misleading. It's a very weak frametrap, but I do it until it stops working. Watching me do this over and over on videos, you wouldn't know. You'd have to play.

Meta shouldn't come from a single video or even a multitude of videos. It shouldn't even come from you, me, Jackie, Star, Tad, Phil, high level players, or low level players even PLAYING. Meta, and by association tiers, should come from results. Full bracket results from cumulative tournaments gathered together and used as statistics. Of course, Meta is 'how' a game or character plays, so what I mean by that is if a current character played a certain way(as concluded from results) is winning consistently, then that's a shift in the meta.

However, I think you might have taken what I said about videos being he said she said to its logical extreme. That's not what I intend. Videos, matches, playing, tournaments, results, all that mess. It's all -part- of the circumstances that create a metagame. I'm just saying the same thing I always say. Don't gush too much over videos from a game you can't play because you(plural, i'm speaking to everyone and I mean this neutrally) have no way of knowing what's actually going on. All we see is a counter hit.

[Papstr]

I had a beautiful idea that ended up terrible. Figured I would share.

and another here:

http://i.imgur.com/r5QnoV7.jpg

This thread was due for another terrible photoshop :U

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

>Meta, and by association tiers, should come from results.

What else would a large sample size of videos of mid-high level play be?

>Meta is 'how' a game or character plays

To my understanding, meta is how all of the characters in a game interact in the form of match-ups and tiers. If a character played certain way is winning consistently, all it tells us is that players are utilizing the tools a higher tiered character has efficiently. A true shift in the meta would be when new technology is found which strengthens or weakens a character's grasp on their current tier, or at least improves/worsens one of their match-ups.

>It's all -part- of the circumstances that create a metagame.

That's all I ever meant to say. I'm not trying to say vids of high level play give us a full understanding of the metagame, only that they let us see character's tools pitted against each other, witness tournament results, and compile match-up results. It isn't a logical extreme to take your words at face value. When you say that it's demoted to the status of hearsay, that means it's pretty much worthless. Anecdotal evidence is typically considered unreliable, whereas actual data is the heart of scientific integrity.

>All we see is a counter-hit.

We also see which characters win most often, what kind of technology is at their disposal, and how match-ups are shaping up at this point in time.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Mr.Minionman]

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Metagame

My thoughts on meta developed from what I remember watching nothing but SC/SC2 for nearly 2 years. Good game, this article is mildly relevant. Point being, even though RTS' have a bit more variety in available options in any given match, tactics change and so do players. Even excluding artificial meta changes via balance changes, we can't expect what we see to be what we get. Not to mention there being the individual meta.

Also gg's Volpe, I'm becoming increasingly more comfortable with that matchup, I think I mainly need to work on getting more damage off of confirms when I get in, and watching for that dp. 'xXp4aplayerXx' was trolling me so hard with it lol >_>

[Milln]

>Meta, and by association tiers, should come from results.

What else would a large sample size of videos of mid-high level play be?

Not necessarily accurate results. Especially if they're all one-shots. Especially if 60% of the entrants decide to be silly and all append -kaka to their names and play Tao. Or the recent Azrael.

>Meta is 'how' a game or character plays

To my understanding, meta is how all of the characters in a game interact in the form of match-ups and tiers. If a character played certain way is winning consistently, all it tells us is that players are utilizing the tools a higher tiered character has efficiently. A true shift in the meta would be when new technology is found which strengthens or weakens a character's grasp on their current tier, or at least improves/worsens one of their match-ups.

Nuh, the term metagame depicts not only in-game stuff, but also what could happen outside the game, usually in terms of knowledge. There's been a big shift in League meta over the years with how supports are "supposed" to be played. Minion's reply is also good.

>It's all -part- of the circumstances that create a metagame.

That's all I ever meant to say. I'm not trying to say vids of high level play give us a full understanding of the metagame, only that they let us see character's tools pitted against each other, witness tournament results, and compile match-up results. It isn't a logical extreme to take your words at face value. When you say that it's demoted to the status of hearsay, that means it's pretty much worthless. Anecdotal evidence is typically considered unreliable, whereas actual data is the heart of scientific integrity.

Hearsay isn't worthless. If I hear some players talking behind me that x isn't really safe, or that x is happening soon, i'm still going to keep it in mind, but i'm not going to bank on it. They also don't truly show us character tools pitted against each other because it's a human piloting. Videos are just as anecdotal as someone talking about it.

>All we see is a counter-hit.

We also see which characters win most often, what kind of technology is at their disposal, and how match-ups are shaping up at this point in time.

Which is why it's part of the whole shebang, not all of it.

My replies in bold.

we can't expect what we see to be what we get. Not to mention there being the individual meta.

Minion does a good job summing up what i'm attempting to say.

[Klein]

I love Renekton Badguy

[Alphakami]

This. Once you fools embrace the glory of "fuck everything I do what I want" you'll have an outlook in life about as awesome as mine. *Riot stomps out the window*

If I have an illegitimate child I hope it's you.

[Papstr]

If I have an illegitimate child I hope it's you.

Feel free to marry my mother.

[Milln]

I love this community.

[Bane]

I love this community.

^^