A.X.I.S. Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) Iron Tager Height: 240 cm Weight: 550 kg Blood Type: Natural Oil Origins: Unknown (doesn't remember) Birthday: November 27 (date of creation) Hobby: Bottle-ships Likes: Kokonoe (his creator) Dislikes: Salt Water Originally the leader of a battle unit which revolved around physical combat, Tager was forced to withdraw from the front lines after sustaining a mortal wound in the Ikaruga Civil War. He was brought back from the brink of death at the hands of the scientist "Kokonoe" and revived as a cyborg, and is currently assigned to a combat unit under the direct control of Kokonoe. He seems to be pursuing Ragna, though his goals are entirely unclear. Guide Information This guide represents the combined efforts of all contributors to the Tager board. Special thanks to Mike Z, Manta, and everyone on these boards, I couldn't have done it without you. Combo thread: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?11174-The-CSII-Iron-Tager-Combo-Thread. Tech trap guide/Gimmick guide: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?9743-Tech-Traps-and-Resets-Guide-Compilation Table of Contents FRAME DATA! http://dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/tager.html Brief change listMove list at a glanceNotationThe Good and the BadTager's Normal moves DriveSpecial MovesDistortion DrivesBasic combosStrategyprimer on Gadget Finger A few words from Axis The change list! Can cancel XYH into 720.Most normals (If not all) are air unblockable.J.C has more untech time on normal hit.J.D has less pull.5D only pulls during active frames.4D has same magnetic pull as 5D.720 pulls before the flash and its really strong.360A leaves enemy closer allowing for follow up combos.360B can be followed up with more stuff.5C has 100p13C has more p1.j.2C is easier to follow up.6B gains fatal property and forces crouch on CH, also has more base damage6A projectile invul is replaced with super armor, P1 and base damage decreased, cannot be jump canceled, can be held to pull in enemies. NOTE: Super armor starts on frame 18, its not a reversal.Sledge follow-up now moves you forward a bit and has projectile auto guard. Note: It seems D moves continue to pull on hit/block. Bad things:Collider damage reduced by 200.6B has 70p1 (was 85 in CS1.) and does not break a primer2C can only be gattling into 3CMove List at a GlanceSpecial Attacks Gigantic Tager Driver (360+ or ) Atomic Collider (+) Sledge Hammer (+ or ) Additional Attack (+) Spark Bolt (+) Voltic Charge () Gadget Finger (:d:+ on downed opponent)Distortion Drives Magna-Tech Wheel (+) Terra Break (+) Genesic Emerald Tager Buster (720+)Astral Heat King of Tager (1080+)Notation In BB the buttons are A (weak), B (medium), C (strong), and D (drive) as for inputs imagine a number pad on a desktop keyboard in other words the inputs will look like this: 7 8 9 4 5 6 1 2 3 Assuming you are facing right it will be 2 for down and 6 for forward, 4 in this case will also be back. So the sledge being 236A would mean 2 (down) 3 (down forward) 6 (forward) A (weak). Some of Tager's moves have received nicknames. These are:Gigantic Tager Driver: 360, Tager BusterAtomic Collider: Collider, ACSledge Hammer: SledgeAdditional Attack: Follow-Up, HammerSpark Bolt: Shot, Tager Shot, SparkVoltic Charge: Charge, VTC, XYH(Cross your heart)Gadget Finger: Gadget, FingerMagna-Tech Wheel: Spinny-super, MTWTerra Break: TerraEGadget: [j.C(whiff) j.2C(lowest)>22D]BGadget: [236B, 22D]Genesic Emerald Tager Buster: 720, GETBKing of Tager: AH, AstralThe Good and the Bad The Good:Easy to pick up and Learn.Good Damaging combos.Highest Health and Primers in the game.Good close range pokes.Fastest projectile in the game.Magnetism helps with closing in on foes.Plenty of useful tricks and gimmicks! Good mind games! The Bad:Has a hard time with zoners.Pokes generally lose to longer ranged or faster pokes.Huge hitbox allowing for "Tager specific combos and Blockstrings."Lacks mobility. (Double jump/Run/Dash/air dash.)Grabs can be broken during hit or blockstun. Tager's Normal attacks As of CS2 all of Tager's ground normals except for 5A and 2A are air unblockable. Normal's are non D attacks FYI. [*]5A: Tager's fastest poke, good at stuffing slower pokes, bad run ins, setting up tick throws, and tech traps [*]slower than most 5A's but has better range to compensate. [*]2A: This poke's primary use is as an anti air or combo filler for crouch loops. [*]6A: This move pulls in magnetized foes and as of CS2 have been given super armor! Meaning it can beat DP's and other reversals, you can also hold it down and it will draw people closer on release. [*]J.A: Fast aerial poke use it to force tech or bring down aerial foes when you have them in block stun. [*]5B: Decently fast poke that hits low. Use it to set up tick throws and OTG combos. [*]2B: Great low poke being +5 on block, having many uses as a tick throw set up and for doing higher damaging OTG combos. [*]6B: Overhead that has fatal counter and forces crouch. [*]Doesn't break primers anymore and Base damage increased compared to CS1. [*]J.B: Tager's air to ground poke that stays active for quite a while, Good combo starter and can OTG some characters mid screen for higher damage combos. [*]Better proration as of CS2. [*]5C: Good poke for mid range, Does good damage and is safe on block. [*]Buffed with better proration and can lead into some pretty nasty combos. [*]Can combo into 6A now on grounded normal hit. [*]3C: Decent low hitting poke that breaks primer and leads to knock down, use this for OTG combos or or for guard crushing. [*]Better p1 and p2 than CS1 allowing for higher damage combos. [*]2C: The usual anti air, use it only when you know its gonna hit. [*]Breaks 1 primer and on CH lasted until your opponent hits the ground. [*]Has fatal counter property on counter hit. [*]Can only gattling into 3C now. [*]6C: Long range primer breaking overhead, main use is for combos. [*]Beware this move has 55% repeat move proration making it really bad to use with our 40% combo rate. [*]J.C: Tager lunges forward in the air, good air to air and pushes Tager forward a bit while airborne. [*]J.2C: Tager's elbow drop, Stops you mid air before falling down, if you do it close to the ground it becomes instant. Drive Drives in general now start attracting opponents later than in CS1. However, their pull has been boosted in most cases. All Drive moves are level 4 and can be blocked in any way. [*]5D: A long ranged straight punch. Adds 6 seconds of magnetism. Wall bounces on CH, stuns on normal grounded hit and blows away and floor slides on air hit (They can tech before they hit the floor). Due to the reduced active time on the attraction, this isn't the massive attractor it once was. But at the same time, you'll find yourself less likely to pull someone in too close before it goes active and getting the move stuffed. [*]4D: Surprisingly quick attack where Tager just seems to launch his arm backwards. Good active time, leads to wallbounce on CH (easier to combo from than 5D CH), tall hitbox and gives neutral advantage on block (Which is very good for Tager). Very bad if you whiff. Much stronger attraction than in CS1 but otherwise unchanged. Adds 4 seconds of magnetism [*]2D: A sort of Rhino's charge which covers a lot of ground and has long active frames. Just like B sledgehammer, you'll get punished for using this as a command dash in neutral situations. So reserve it for pressure when you have frame advantage, or after Atomic Collider. Unless you catch a CH with this on its last active frames, you cannot follow it up without RC. However, its proration is very good and its initial damage is very high, so it's well worth using an RC in this way. Adds 6 seconds of magnetism [*]j.D: Slow but powerful horizontal poke with a big hitbox. Its attraction makes it a very useful air to air attack and leads to big damage if you can score a counterhit low enough to the ground to follow it up with AC. Adds 6 seconds of magnetism. Special moves Gigantic Tager Driver (360A/B): Command grabs that cannot be throw escaped under normal circumstances. 360A boasts invulnerability (frame 3-11, goes active on the 11th) making it a decent reversal in many situations but at the price of it being slower and less damaging. 360B on the hand comes out faster (6 frames) but does a whopping 3700 damage and it can be followed up with more stuff than A buster. In both cases you will attract magnetised opponents towards you and you can extend this attraction by holding down the button. 360A Can be extended significantly longer than 360B but 360A will only attempt to grab your opponent after you've let go of A whereas 360B will grab them whenever it can, even if you are still holding the button. Atomic Collider (623C): An unblockable Anti air grab which slams your opponent down to the floor on the other side of yo and is untechable for a long time (And thus can be followed up in various ways). Generally used more for the big damage it inflicts in combos rather than as an anti air (It ignores Tager's 40% combo rate and thus is always worth adding into your combos whenever you can). This move pulls in magnetised and airborne opponents, and quite strongly too. just like 360A you can hold the button down to lengthen the attractive time on the move, but also like 360A you must let go of the button to actually perform the grab. Note that while it has Head invulnerability, it starts late you so won't take advantage of it too often Sledge Hammer (236A/B): An advancing strike with an anti-projectile guard point until it enters recovery. The A version is quick but doesn't move very far, and often only sees use inside fatal combos and not much else. The B version has a long startup but covers a long horizontal distance and can easily be followed up on hit, often overused by scrubs as a command dash and frequently gets them punished for it. To reiterate: This move is not a command dash do not use it as such! Additional Attack (236A After Sledge Hammer): The follow up to sledge hammer. Breaks 1 primer and has 100p1, nail a counter hit of 1 of these and you are going to be dishing out some serious Tager hurt. Has Projectile auto guard now and slides you forward, good for reckless zoners. Spark Bolt (41236D): When Tager's energy gauge is full (The one above the heat gauge) he gains access to the fastest projectile in the game! It breaks a primer and magnetizes on hit and block. See below for further details regarding this move. Voltic Charge (214D): (Note the changed input as of CS2) A standing pose with a high/projectile autoguard that can be held for just over a second (Throws and lows still work against you). When the move ends your Spark bolt guarge increases a significant amount (Based on how long you were in this stance). Because it is a special move, you can special cancel into it as a means of baiting bursts, DPs etc, but be wary that it has a a vulnerable recovery which your opponents will take advantage of if you let them. In the first ten frames of this move it is possible to cancel it into Genesic Emerald Tager Buster (See below) which offers a way of performing it without needing to buffer it in some way. Gadget Finger (22D on downed opponent): OTG Pick up that does 100 fixed damage, magnetises your opponent and drops them in front of you in a standing position. It leaves you at +3 frame advantage leaving your enemy in a rather unpleasant situation with no guaranteed escape from what you might do. Since you are at +3 you can actually poke without worry of being out poked or stuff a jump out. It can be rapid cancelled allowing for additional mix up. (See the more detailed analysis below). Note that as well as picking up downed opponents, it can also be used to pick up opponents that are just about to hit the ground as well. This move attracts downed opponents during its active frames and can be held to extend these frames. Distortion Drives Magna-Tech Wheel (236236B): A useful super move that has 50+ frames of auto-guard and throw invulnerability. When used against a magnetized opponent, Tager will gravitate towards them as opposed to pulling them towards you, and you have some directional control of tager during the spinning part of the move. Useful in combos and as a counter to jump-ins. On block, it should be RCed and followed-up with pressure or mind games. Breaks two guard primers. Not afftected by combo rate. Following this move up depends heavily on how high up you opponent was when the last hit strikes, (The higher the better). Terra Break (236236B After Magna-Tech Wheel): Follow up to Magna-Tech Wheel, does really good damage by itself but if you got 50 meter you might as well use it for rapids. Use only for the kill or to gain a health lead in a time out situation. Note that to make sure it hits, you want to input the command so that you press B just momentarily after your opponent starts falling from the previous hit. You can activate it much earlier than this, which typically will make it miss. Often possible to follow up with a quick move but Terrabreak prorates so badly that you won't get any damage from it. Genesic Emerald Tager Buster (720C): A highly damaging super grab, and the super you will probably be using most often. Invincible on startup, and starts attracting magnetised opponents two frames after activation (before the super flash) and can be held like 360A, although it will not be invincible during this time. Unlike 360A, this attack will grab even if you're still holding down the button, which makes it very easy to use. Basic combos to get you started. 5A>5B>3C>22D 5A>2B>3C>2B>2C>623C>B/Egadget 5A>2B>2C>623C>B/Egadget 2b/6A>2C>623C>B/Egadget 5C>6A>3C>2B>2C>623C>B/Egadget 5C>6A>2C>623C>B/Egadget 4B+C>5C/2C>623C>B/Egadget B+C>41236D>5C/2C>B/Egadget With Magnetism. 5A>2B>2C>623Cx2>6B>2C>623C>B/Egadget 2B/6A>2C>623Cx2>6B>2C>623C>B/Egadget B+C>623Cx2>6B>2C>623C>B/Egadget 623x2>236236B>236236B>gadget There is more combos in this thread here if you wanna learn more cool stuff! http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?11174-The-CSII-Iron-Tager-Combo-Thread. Edited May 27, 2011 by A.X.I.S.
A.X.I.S. Posted April 21, 2011 Author Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) Strategy Approaching As Tager your job is to get close and start an offense and your options are: Walking: The normal and safest form of movement for Tager, leaving you with the most defense options.Jumping: Fastest but most risky option for getting close with Tager, since Tager only has one jump you can't really do too much to stuff AA's except for the occasional J.2C.2D: The middle ground between jumping and walking, the bad thing about 2D is that you have to be in range for it to connect, the good thing is if your opponent blocks it they get magnetized and if they are already magnetized you can 2D from further away to get in.Close Range You got in close range! Now we are cooking with gas! Lets light them up! Lets talk about the things you can do once your in shall we:5A: Your fastest poke, generally safe on block, and leads into high/low/throw mix up!Its jump cancelable on block so you can actually jump after people who thinks they can mash jump to get away. Say no to that!5B/2B your lows: 5B is great for buffering 360/720 since its not jump cancelable and gattlings into 2B, while 2B is safe on block and can also be used for throws and frame traps.4D: A safe way to end your pressure and gain easy magnetism, in CS2 its -3 on IB meanng you are safe regardly of your opponent! (unless its Tager churning 720s.)6A: This move is used for many things: drawing people in for tick throws and primer breaking is only a couple of things you can do with this move, use sparingly as it lost jump cancel property.Throws: 360/720 are your primary choices although regular throw is fine too! man up and throw them!Long Range Oh wow you are away from your opponent what to do now? Spark bolt is your only long range move either to punish wrecklessness or to gain magnetism so you can Work your way in. When your opponent is Magnetized you can use 5D to "zone" your opponents since magnetism messes with spacing...learn when you should 5D and where, knowing when to do it can lead to victory or utter defeat.Defensive Oh wow you are not the aggressor well have no fear we can talk about what you should do in these situations!Blocking: get good at this and fast, block overheads and practice IBing blockstrings, this creates gaps in other wise safe pressure, also makes moves thats hard to punish actually punishable.5C: A poke for defense? Yes 5C has a nice large frontal hitbox and used right makes your opponent think before charging in full force on CH it combos into 2D allowing a free in.6A: if your opponent is jumping around magnetized then use them to pull them in, in some situations they fly right to the corner...right where you want them.2A: Its a situational anti-air use it on poorly spaced jump in's, mess with it in practice to learn its hitbox.2C: Primary anti air! risky but effective, land this and you are gonna put on some hurt and gain a lot of heat!Atomic Colider: The yomi anti air, Use it on obvious jump in's when you are feeling psychic, keep in mind its not invulnerable on frame 1. Gadget Finger As Okizeme goes, Gadget finger is probably the most obvious one of them all due to the length the move takes to perform. In that regard you will probably find quite a few opponents who know how all of the different options out of the mixup and you'd do well to know these options yourself. However with the exception of one case, nothing they do is 100% safe and generally revolves around a nasty game of rock-paper-scissors (Albeit somewhat more complicated). Here are the things they can try and do and what moves of yours beat it: (Please note that there is a 4 frame gap after they are free to move where all throws you do are purple throws) They try: Mashing A It beats: You using collider, 5C or 6A. You beat it with: Your own A mashing (you have frame advantage), MTW or 360/720, with the added bonus that if you hit them too early with the grabs (and get purple !!s) they can't tech it because it's a throw counter. They try: Jumping away and using barrier It beats: Throw attempts of all kinds, Goes neutral: if you use a normal since it forces them to land. Using gadget finger again will catch them. You beat it with: Atomic collider, Air throw. MTW RC can lead to its own mixup but MTW on its own very much loses here. They try: Backdash It beats: 360B, Goes neutral: with A mashing, Gadget finger. You beat it with: Varies on backdash, but held 360s can beat it and a held 720 almost certainly will. They try: Reversal move (DP, Super or Gold burst) It beats: everything except blocking and MTW, which beat it unless they can rapid cancel (This is the safest option they have, if they even have it). They try: Jumping at you and attacking It beats: Throws, You beat it with: Mashing A, blocking might let you squeeze a 2C in for big damage. Gadget finger is a interesting move as it is not affected by proration and you can rapid cancel it allowing you to go for even stronger mix up. We have a guide on it you should check it out when you get down the basics. Big Tidbits. From Manta: Spark bolt It comes out fast, wallbounces, adds magnetism, always lets you combo into it and from it, travels at an insane speed and demolishes all non-super projectiles on its way, yet the best use for spark bolt is often not to use it at all. If you're wondering how this makes any sense, think about it. Your opponent can see you have the best projectile ever charged and ready to use in the blink of an eye, they're now forced to respect you from any range, why throw away such a powerful threat just to have it blocked? Use the fear to advance upon your opponent instead like the glacier you are and use spark bolt at some unexpected time instead. Just as a quick reference, the following times are NOT unexpected: [*]Immediately after your opponent techs[*]Immediately after you tech[*]At max range (They can just see it coming)[*]After a poke (5D is particularly obvious) Writing a list of when spark bolt is unexpected would rather defeat the point, so it's up to you to be creative as the situation demands. B Sledgehammer Whilst it looks like a heavier version of A sledge and shares its useful projectile guard point, you'll find their purposes to be quite different. This move is functionally little different to CS1, but its interaction with additional attack has been improved slightly (see below). However, in a bid to reduce Tager scrubbiness everywhere I must make this point; what remains true of B Sledge all the way back in CT remains true now... B Sledgehammer is not a command dash! Do not use it in neutral situations to cover ground as you WILL get punished for it To clarify, Sledgehammer only has a projectile guard point, any other kind of attack will beat it and with its long recovery and big startup, don't be surprised if you get hit with a fatal counter combo for your recklessness. This move is actually pretty bad in combos too, with very poor P1 and P2 values (70/70) and a repeat proration of 55% so don't expect to gain massive damage from it. This doesn't mean never use it as it does punish reckless projectile use and is advantageous on block. As well as all things that are obviously projectiles (Jin's ice swords, Lambda's drive etc), here are some attacks that Sledge's guard point will protect against even though they don't look like they are projectiles. [*]Noel's Bolverk attacks (That yellow muzzle flash you often see)[*]Anything Nirvana does[*]Tsubaki's DP moves[*]Jin's drive moves[*]George XIII's electric attack[*]Lambda's 5C attack (But none of her other C moves)[*]Rachel's 5B and 2B (as of CS2) Additional Attack Additional Attack now also has projectile guard, meaning your opponent now cannot simply wait for sledge to end and hit you with a projectile for a free punish since you may or may not do additional attack. This obviously doesn't help you if they have a well ranged non-projectile poke but can catch people off guard if you use this move sparingly. Unlike Sledgehammer, this move has excellent proration values and on counterhit it is possible to follow it up with some pretty big damage. Despite its appearance, it has a deceptively long active time (16 active frames!) which means it sometimes hits opponents that think you've entered the move's recovery. From your lovely mod: To do 360s standing you just need to start from a desired direction (usually right or left) and spin the stick in a 270 degree angle. You can also do this with 720 as well but you still need to spin the stick in a 360 before doing so. Meaning you don't have to do a complete 360/720 to get the move out. XYH can cancel into 720 now which is a good gimmick when your opponent thinks you are open with 50 meter. It also makes it possible for you to do a near instant 720 on the ground without the crazy buffering. Edited May 5, 2011 by A.X.I.S.
A.X.I.S. Posted April 21, 2011 Author Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) Hello old players and new players I am A.X.I.S your everyday co-mod. I am here to tell you a few things: First off I may seem rough at times but I am here to aid you in your learning, I will provide you with any basic info you need but I cannot make you learn. How far is it that you want to go with this game? do you play it for fun? Do you mash buttanz? Do you want to be competitive? These are things you have to discover for yourself. Now on to my side of things. I have very few and simple rules. If you need help or just don't know something then ask, I cannot bite you for asking nor can I yell at you. I can of course tell answer your question as best as I can. We right now do not have a free for all thread, it was removed for the sake of saving space on DL, besides no one really posts here. Simply put you can be a newb or noob, I am obligated to help you but for gods sake don't act a fool here. I never had to use mod powers and I hope I never will. So without too much delay let the games begin and I hope you enjoy the crazy rage filled life of Tager. The Tager life is the life for we! the Tager life is the death of me! May edit this post again for softballing. Edited April 23, 2011 by A.X.I.S.
Astaroth136 Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 Why does Tager look so retarded in that picture? Actually, you know what. It sums up his in-game options quite nicely... clunky and retarded.
Darlos9D Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 Yeah, he looks like a big stupid overdressed monkey. I kinda like his older "just standing there" picture better. But hey, its the CS image, and this is a CS guide, so... I'd ask how he bends over that far, but I have a lot of questions regarding how he does certain things (like how he fully bends his arm with a huge gauntlet in the way), so it's probably best not to go there.
A.X.I.S. Posted April 21, 2011 Author Posted April 21, 2011 I'd give you guys a free for all thread. AKA Tager general but no one posts in this forum.
Astaroth136 Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 Yeah, he looks like a big stupid overdressed monkey. I kinda like his older "just standing there" picture better. But hey, its the CS image, and this is a CS guide, so... I'd ask how he bends over that far, but I have a lot of questions regarding how he does certain things (like how he fully bends his arm with a huge gauntlet in the way), so it's probably best not to go there. It's not even that. His right foot is facing us, while his entire upper body is facing our left. It looks like he's fumbling and just about to fall over. Anyway, nice guide Axis. I'll post my input once I actually play CS2...
Manta Posted April 24, 2011 Posted April 24, 2011 I can't help but feel much of the notes are all a bit textdump and could do with some decent formatting and paragraphing. Like bolding moves names, turning lists of statements into flowing prose and giving a readable structure to it that lends itself to a reference as well as an in depth read (Most people who will read this will want certain headings quite clear). I could rejig some and PM it if you like.
A.X.I.S. Posted April 24, 2011 Author Posted April 24, 2011 If you can do that it will be wonderful. As far as writing goes that is one of my weaker points.
Brice Posted April 24, 2011 Posted April 24, 2011 the guide is pretty cool. I like it keep up the good work!!! I think there's a mispelling in the defensive part where you talk about j.D and you follow up by saying that 4D has 100p1 and that you can follow up for some nasty combo. and also that you can get hit by AA using 4D. am I wrong? also you might wanna say that 6A super armor cannot eat lows since it's not a full body super armor. same with voltic charge. it's a cool guide can't wait to play cs2 now that the guide is up
Manta Posted April 24, 2011 Posted April 24, 2011 If you can do that it will be wonderful. As far as writing goes that is one of my weaker points. Watch out for your inbox.
Manta Posted April 24, 2011 Posted April 24, 2011 Still quite not organised the way I meant, any way I can just edit your post and sort it out?
A.X.I.S. Posted April 24, 2011 Author Posted April 24, 2011 Alright then, just PM me how it should be and I'll make it wonderful. I don't mind reformating the original post. Oh and no sadly you can't. Not without that star. ><
TagerTime Posted April 24, 2011 Posted April 24, 2011 Some things that i did not see listed that should be noted: 6A is special cancellable into 360A and 360B Tagers backdash now beats Ragnas inferno divider clean In the Gadget finger section: They try: Reversal move (DP, Super or Gold burst) It beats: everything except blocking and MTW, which beat it unless they can rapid cancel (This is the safest option they have, if they even have it). You forgot to add Voltic Charge as it is Tagers primary way to beat all reversal DP/Gold bursts and most reversal supers after gadget. Now with its new input punishing reversals after gadget with voltic charge followed by 360/720 is so much easier and fun to do, especially againts Jin and Ragna. I have CS2 for the Psp so if you have anything you want me to test about Tager then let me know.
Osuna Posted April 25, 2011 Posted April 25, 2011 Some things that i did not see listed that should be noted: 6A is special cancellable into 360A and 360B Tagers backdash now beats Ragnas inferno divider clean In the Gadget finger section: You forgot to add Voltic Charge as it is Tagers primary way to beat all reversal DP/Gold bursts and most reversal supers after gadget. Now with its new input punishing reversals after gadget with voltic charge followed by 360/720 is so much easier and fun to do, especially againts Jin and Ragna. I have CS2 for the Psp so if you have anything you want me to test about Tager then let me know.I don't think backdashing ID can be described with those terms. Since it doesn't beat ID unless the frames line up such that we dodge it. Normally when we say something beats something clean we mean that it's properties just straight out win head to head. Also XYH isn't how we should beat reversals that can be rapided, since it pretty much gives them a free CH into combo. Or Bursts since it can't be canceled past frame 11 and it's too slow to punish a burst in CS1, so unless bursts are slower it still won't punish a burst unless they are in the air when they burst. So voltech charge is quite bad for those situations, not even close to being our primary punish.
TagerTime Posted April 25, 2011 Posted April 25, 2011 I don't think back dashing ID can be described with those terms. Since it doesn't beat ID unless the frames line up such that we dodge it. Normally when we say something beats something clean we mean that it's properties just straight out win head to head. Also XYH isn't how we should beat reversals that can be rapided, since it pretty much gives them a free CH into combo. Or Bursts since it can't be canceled past frame 11 and it's too slow to punish a burst in CS1, so unless bursts are slower it still won't punish a burst unless they are in the air when they burst. So voltech charge is quite bad for those situations, not even close to being our primary punish. At close range Ragna cannot use inferno divider to hit tager out of his back dash anymore. Its very easy to back dash this move now without getting hit. Here is one example that works great: You Gadget Finger Ranga and he has 50% heat. Usually Ragna would Inferno Divider and Rapid on block to dash out or attack. In CS2 Tager would now simply back dash the inferno divider forcing it to whiff therefore Ragna is unable to rapid cancel and has no choice but to get grabbed by your back dash 360/720/1080. In CS1 this would not work because you would immediately get hit out of your back dash by inferno divider. Voltic charge always beats gold burst after gadget and you can immediately 360/720 them out of their gold burst recovery. Also many Ragnas and Jins you face will try to DP you after Gadget without them having 50 Heat to rapid. Anyway regardless of them havign heat to rapid or not the reversal section of Gadget finger is incorrect since it should say "It beats: everything except blocking, Voltic Charge and MTW" I think i see where you are confused, im not talking about canceling voltic charge start up into 720. i was talking about buffering 360 and 720 immediately after voltic charge. its so fast and easy with the new 214D input, it works like a charm.
Isorropia Posted April 25, 2011 Posted April 25, 2011 At close range Ragna cannot use inferno divider to hit tager out of his back dash anymore. Its very easy to back dash this move now without getting hit. Here is one example that works great: You Gadget Finger Ranga and he has 50% heat. Usually Ragna would Inferno Divider and Rapid on block to dash out or attack. In CS2 Tager would now simply back dash the inferno divider forcing it to whiff therefore Ragna is unable to rapid cancel and has no choice but to get grabbed by your back dash 360/720/1080. In CS1 this would not work because you would immediately get hit out of your back dash by inferno divider. That isn't 'one example', it's pretty much the only example you'll find. Gadget finger is a static situation where both people know the frame data and their options. More likely, a dp will come in the natural flow of a match, and if you backdash and they don't DP you sacrifice momentum and if you backdash too early you eat the ID anyway. Not to mention even in the gadget finger scenario.....he can just delay the ID and beat your backdash. He's not forced to do it with reversal timing. Doesn't work against DP rapid cancels. If you play better players you'll quickly find that the X number of recovery frames on XYH are significantly more than the 0 recovery frames of a rapid cancel and hence you will eat a counterhit into combo. Using XYH to take a gold burst is nice but....risky.
A.X.I.S. Posted April 25, 2011 Author Posted April 25, 2011 Funny note you can actually backdash ID after a gadget but its tricky, you actually have to walk back a step and late backdash. Still not a good idea. You can backdash all of Jin's DP's no problem, its always been like that and I would actually support it since Jin Likes swinging his D DP around after he blocks something. Also we can 360A through 3 of Jin's DP's...Now why I mention this? I don't know I am still groggy. VTC and back dash are situational. After gadget and you are not gonna do it without yomi being on your side. That post was showing the basic answers from gadget which it does just fine. Now I have to organize the thread soon so it wouldn't look like I giant wall of text to new users.
Osuna Posted April 25, 2011 Posted April 25, 2011 (edited) snipOk, I know people have sorta covered this, but I feel the need to respond because your counter argument wasn't addressing mine exactly as I intended my arguments to be seen. So I'm thinking I wasn't clear enough so I'm going to try and make things crystal clear. You can and I still do, backdash ID in CS1, your goal is to match up the invulnerability frames against the active frames, which is easier to do now because ID has fewer active frames, but it's not like you can just backdash whenever and win. So backdash doesn't 'beat' it but can Sometimes be used to Dodge it. That is an important distinction. When we say ID beats overhead attempts clean we mean there's nothing they can do to make the overhead win. It just simply can't happen. Also, I haven't heard anywhere that bursts got slower, since they might have I didn't say anything but I'm a little more confident now that you are mistaken. In CS1 you can XYH through gold or blue burst and they could hold up and you would not have enough time to get them even with a 720. If it works like a charm you need to set the CPU to jump, or tell your opponent how to escape it. Though someone feel free to chime in and tell me I'm wrong because I'd love to hear about any more buffs we got in exchange for our totally unnecessary nerfs. To me it looks like a best case scenario of a 4 frame advantage (likey less) and a worst case of just eating a huge combo. For that reason I don't think it should even be listed, but as you may recall, my original contention was that it wasn't our primary method of dealing with those options and realistically it deals with neither reliably. I think I have made my case clearer than before. Edited April 25, 2011 by Osuna Snipped the quote
TagerTime Posted April 26, 2011 Posted April 26, 2011 (edited) Ok, I know people have sorta covered this, but I feel the need to respond because your counter argument wasn't addressing mine exactly as I intended my arguments to be seen. So I'm thinking I wasn't clear enough so I'm going to try and make things crystal clear. You can and I still do, backdash ID in CS1, your goal is to match up the invulnerability frames against the active frames, which is easier to do now because ID has fewer active frames, but it's not like you can just backdash whenever and win. So backdash doesn't 'beat' it but can Sometimes be used to Dodge it. That is an important distinction. When we say ID beats overhead attempts clean we mean there's nothing they can do to make the overhead win. It just simply can't happen. Also, I haven't heard anywhere that bursts got slower, since they might have I didn't say anything but I'm a little more confident now that you are mistaken. In CS1 you can XYH through gold or blue burst and they could hold up and you would not have enough time to get them even with a 720. If it works like a charm you need to set the CPU to jump, or tell your opponent how to escape it. Though someone feel free to chime in and tell me I'm wrong because I'd love to hear about any more buffs we got in exchange for our totally unnecessary nerfs. To me it looks like a best case scenario of a 4 frame advantage (likey less) and a worst case of just eating a huge combo. For that reason I don't think it should even be listed, but as you may recall, my original contention was that it wasn't our primary method of dealing with those options and realistically it deals with neither reliably. I think I have made my case clearer than before. This is the CS2 thread and i have CS2 and practiced these things extensively. Do you have CS2? It sounds like you don't because you keep talking about CS1. About Backdash: What part of it is much easier now in CS2 to backdash Inferno Divider at close range without getting hit by it compared to CS1 do you not understand? Please Reword it anyway that it makes sense to you. Of course you'll still get hit if you backdash too early which allows him to hit you after your invic frames are over. About Gold Bursts: If they try to jump out after gold burst you can immediately collider them out of the air instead of doing 360/720. Again this also works like a charm. About DP rapid: Obviously you can always choose not to do Voltec charge if they have heat to rapid. It works if you expect that your opponent will try to DP you without having heat to rapid. Besides that if you know what your doing it is possible to beat DP Rapid with Voltec charge if they chose to attck you instead of jumping out, but i wont talk about that here since it is something for the match up threads. I seen MikeZ win tournament matches against Ragna's DP rapid after gadget by doing this even in CS1. In CS2 the new motion just makes it easier to do. The whole point was that Voltic charge is a viable option that works after gadget under the right circumstances, and there fore since this thread is called the complete guide that part about reversals under gadget finger is not complete if Voltic charge is not listed. Ok so it is not a primary option but is still a valid one that people reading the guide should be aware of so they can choose to use it as they see fit. Edited April 26, 2011 by TagerTime removed a mistake about backdash
Isorropia Posted April 26, 2011 Posted April 26, 2011 (edited) About Backdash: What part of it is much easier now in CS2 to backdash Inferno Divider at close range without getting hit by it compared to CS1 do you not understand? Please Reword it anyway that it makes sense to you. Of course you'll still get hit if you backdash to early or from to far away witch allows him to hit you after your invic frames are over. Probably the bit where you have this idea that the distance between ragna and tager has anything to do with whether backdash beats ID or not. It's simple maths of his active frames vs your invinc frames. Range is irrelevant. Tager's invuln on backdash: 19f. Ragna 623C in CS1: 2(4)12 active frames. Ragna 623C in CS2: 2(4)6. We're trying to put together a guide for tager, including strategies for different situations etc. It isn't helpful to list tactics which are in essence enormous guesses and say 'it works like a charm', because it doesn't, and never will. For example it's far safer and in 90% of cases will be a better option to simply 5A/2B on their wakeup and hold back, if you guess they will gold burst. Because that way if you guessed wrong you're still in a decent/advantageous situation rather than eating a combo because you tried to XYH>collider on their wakeup. Edited April 26, 2011 by Isorropia
Maho Posted April 26, 2011 Posted April 26, 2011 No one said XYH isn't an option after gadget, i guess most people find it somewhat stupid, seriously if you think they'll DP and can't RC, why would you not just block instead to not be exposed to a CH punish in case they don't DP? About Gold Bursts: If they try to jump out after gold burst you can immediately collider them out of air instead of using 360/720. Again this also works like a charm. If you always do the thing that beat what your opponent do, of course it'll work...
Osuna Posted April 26, 2011 Posted April 26, 2011 snipI don't know why this is, but people tend to drop claims they have made in exchange for taking up claims that I made. I already said that it is easier to backdash ID. However it does not "Beat it clean" The language you used is not a synonym for what happens. It actually means something and you were misusing it. That's all I said about that. Also how is backdashing from "too far away" get you hit by an ID? Next, you claimed that you grab people out of the "recovery frames" of Burst. Now you're claiming you just get a redo of gadget finger mix up, which is what I claimed in the previous post. Also that's almost exactly the same as instant blocking it and way more dangerous. What the heck, guy? You've backed out of all of your claims, and just agreed with me over and made even more silly claims while trying to make it look like you are arguing with me from a position of authority. I brought up CS1 because it made your claims weird. You claimed that backdash beats ID clean now. It used to beat ID in CS1, the only change is that it is a little easier now, which is not the same as saying "It beats it now" which also implies that it didn't before and does so consistently now. Example 2, bursts can't be punished with XYH unless there were changes, which you now seem to agree with. Also your claim that "if you know what you're doing" XYH beats ID rapid is wrong and it says so right in your explanation. It's not if you know what you're doing, it's if they Don't know what they are doing. It's not a punish if it only works when they make a mistake, XYH is not a reliable punish for DPs and it isn't a punish At All for grounded bursts and RCable DPs. So even though you changed your claim from XYH being our primary way to beating those moves to that it Can beat those moves you're still wrong. Maybe you were misusing the jargon and didn't realize it. Heck maybe you just misspoke, it happens. Whatever it was, I'm not the only one who disagrees with you, so where does all this confidence come from that makes you think you can talk down to me like that? With those conclusions you can't stick to, you decided to get mean. Not cool. I can't believe someone got confrontational with me with weapons like those.
TagerTime Posted April 26, 2011 Posted April 26, 2011 Probably the bit where you have this idea that the distance between ragna and tager has anything to do with whether backdash beats ID or not. It's simple maths of his active frames vs your invinc frames. Range is irrelevant. Tager's invuln on backdash: 19f. Ragna 623C in CS1: 2(4)12 active frames. Ragna 623C in CS2: 2(4)6. My mistake in my distance tests i realized i was back dashing to early when i was doing it at a further distance which caused me to get hit. For example it's far safer and in 90% of cases will be a better option to simply 5A/2B on their wakeup and hold back, if you guess they will gold burst. Because that way if you guessed wrong you're still in a decent/advantageous situation rather than eating a combo because you tried to XYH>collider on their wakeup. I was specifically addressing the part where osuna said: Also, I haven't heard anywhere that bursts got slower, since they might have I didn't say anything but I'm a little more confident now that you are mistaken. In CS1 you can XYH through gold or blue burst and they could hold up and you would not have enough time to get them even with a 720. If it works like a charm you need to set the CPU to jump, or tell your opponent how to escape it. Im only talking about using Voltic charge after Gadget finger. Not about wakeup form a tech. In CS2 you do in fact have time to get them with collider when they jump out after gold burst after you block it with Voltec charge.
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