[CS2] Iron Tager Complete Guide

[Osuna]

Im only talking about using Voltic charge after Gadget finger. Not about wakeup form a tech. In CS2 you do in fact have time to get them with collider when they jump out after gold burst after you block it with Voltec charge.

Yeah that's true in CS1 also and in any situation remotely similar to GF. The problem is that You in no uncertain terms said that you can 360 people out of the recovery frames of a burst if you XYH. Which I then claimed was impossible, then you brought up collider which came out of no where and proved my point that it isn't a punish, but rather a GF esque mix up.

[TagerTime]

I don't know why this is, but people tend to drop claims they have made in exchange for taking up claims that I made. I already said that it is easier to backdash ID. However it does not "Beat it clean" The language you used is not a synonym for what happens. It actually means something and you were misusing it. That's all I said about that. Also how is backdashing from "too far away" get you hit by an ID?

Next, you claimed that you grab people out of the "recovery frames" of Burst. Now you're claiming you just get a redo of gadget finger mix up, which is what I claimed in the previous post. Also that's almost exactly the same as instant blocking it and way more dangerous. What the heck, guy? You've backed out of all of your claims, and just agreed with me over and made even more silly claims while trying to make it look like you are arguing with me from a position of authority.

I brought up CS1 because it made your claims weird. You claimed that backdash beats ID clean now. It used to beat ID in CS1, the only change is that it is a little easier now, which is not the same as saying "It beats it now" which also implies that it didn't before and does so consistently now. Example 2, bursts can't be punished with XYH unless there were changes, which you now seem to agree with.

Also your claim that "if you know what you're doing" XYH beats ID rapid is wrong and it says so right in your explanation. It's not if you know what you're doing, it's if they Don't know what they are doing. It's not a punish if it only works when they make a mistake, XYH is not a reliable punish for DPs and it isn't a punish At All for grounded bursts and RCable DPs.

So even though you changed your claim from XYH being our primary way to beating those moves to that it Can beat those moves you're still wrong. Maybe you were misusing the jargon and didn't realize it. Heck maybe you just misspoke, it happens. Whatever it was, I'm not the only one who disagrees with you, so where does all this confidence come from that makes you think you can talk down to me like that? With those conclusions you can't stick to, you decided to get mean. Not cool. I can't believe someone got confrontational with me with weapons like those.

I already clarified what i meant about back dashing in my second post. I guess that wasn't good enough for you since i don't know why you want to keep bringing it up over and over. It sounds like you want me to apologize for saying it incorrectly the first time for some reason. My previous post covers everything else in your silly post that is actually worth addressing.

Also, now i know one of the reasons that Mikez is the best american tager player. Unlike some of you he is not afraid to use all of the options at Tagers disposal to win.

Funny note you can actually backdash ID after a gadget but its tricky, you actually have to walk back a step and late backdash.

Still not a good idea.

I didnt catch this before but it sounds like you are talking about CS1 because in CS2 you do not have to walk back a step and late backdash. It is not tricky, you can back dash at the same time he does ID and not get hit by it. Hower you will get hit by it if you do it too early after gadget.

Edited April 26, 2011 by TagerTime

[A.X.I.S.]

I seriously love you guys.

This is actually discussion in here.

<3 to all of you.

@ Tagertime: Well its tricky when your opponent varies the timing of their DP and I have never beaten ID at close range without doing it late.

Nor have I ever beaten it at a distance doing it at the same time that statement was for CS1.

But in CS2 if you feel a ID coming out and you don't want to block it then I don't see too much a reason to not backdash it but of course this means you have yomi, which in the end is just a hunch. -_-

Oh and on the subject of burst.

If its gold and they are grounded do not VTC it, you are gonna get shreded for it.

IB it if you can or just block it, in fact if you have yomi you can MTW it but again that varies on the opponent and its more yomi than anything else.

I'd like to make note that this is only after gadget when I make the previous statement because if they are in the air you just have to do it.

Either way VTC isn't a very smart move unless you are on netplay.

Then it's all derp.

LOL at Bringing Mike Z into the argument.

You know why Mike Z wins?

Extremely random.

Insane yomi.

I love you too Mike.

Edited April 27, 2011 by A.X.I.S.

[A.X.I.S.]

Double posting.

On the subject of The match up threads:

Do you guys want the normal match up names or just some comment for them like:

Science and Bees! a epic confrontation Tager vs Arakune.

Except not as lame.

Oh and Leave the thread creation to me unless you guys wanna edit the post.

1 more thing.

It will be done similar to the Litchi boards, well at least how Lk does it.

So something like this:

General Matchup:

This can be a hard matchup or annoying matchup for Litchi. Bang's extra aerial option, his incredibly safe pressure and varied pressure options make this a real test of your skill with Litchi.

Fullscreen:

-Good idea to set the staff.

-Against fullscreen nails: sj > ib nails (be prepared to jA)

-Bang has jump > dj > airdash. Be careful

-Against poison nails: Launch staff, or ib them. Let him waste them.

Midscreen:

-Against midscreen nails: jump, get hit by them. Set staff with 5D if you have time (applicable above as well).

-Against jump in > j.AA > cmd grab: Barrier block the j.A When he command grabs, thanks to the added blockstun, it will be a purple throw. Staffless: IB j.A > jHatsu.

-At this range, Bang has to choose between nail approach or aerial approach.

-Litchi's anti-airs: rising jA, 5A, 2A, launch staff, airthrow. Judge what to use based on his height. For 2A, you want to crouch under them and punish their landing (Bang players like hitting buttons)

-Against dash 5B: 6D[m], or 2B staffless.

Bang's Pressure:

-Against 5A > 2A > 2A: IB the first 2A, jump out.

-Against 5B: IB it, hit 2A. 5B > 2B is tight, 5B > 2C is tight. 5B > 5C, 5B > 6A, you will 2A and get a CH.

-Against 2B: Watch what they do. If they like doing jump over j4B, airthrow them out of the start up.

-Against D nails: IB them, barrier jump. Unless they do the fastest possible dash 5A or 5B, you will escape.

Litchi's Pressure:

-Beware of his D button. Most Bang's really like 2D, so be ready to preemptively 3C or use a string that you can easily jump away from the guard point.

-2A>2C and 2A > 5C are effective against mashing.

-Try to restrict use of Daisharin okizeme against Bang. Although his reversal options are baitable, you get very few mixup opportunities to bait them all.

-The staffless 3way okizeme is preferred.

-Don't use Kokushi against him.

[Manta]

A lot of the matchups against Tager involve a significant gameplay shift for many characters because Tager himself has a very slanted playstyle, it would be important to list what these shifts are. E.g. Tsubaki is basically prevented from doing any ground strings against you on fear of 360A and therefore has to use a lot of well-spaced 5B and 22[D]s. Some characters like Lambda obviously aren't changing their style at all.

[TagerTime]

I seriously love you guys.

This is actually discussion in here.

<3 to all of you.

LOL at Bringing Mike Z into the argument.

You know why Mike Z wins?

Extremely random.

Insane yomi.

I love you too Mike.

MikeZ is LIMIT BREAK!!!!!!!

We love you to AXIS (No Homo)

[evilben]

i cant stand the lot of you! (joking)

but you should name the boards

Fight Science: Arakune

Fight Science: Bang

etc etc.

as far as VC after GF... maybe once as a mind game, but if you actually try this often you are going to get smashed hard for it. just look at the options...

back dash, block, jump, attack, special move, super. VC loses to back dash, block, jump, some attacks, some special moves. i know that some people get up jabbing but if they see you do VC you better hope you can finish your 720 before they can switch to 2a

[Osuna]

snip

You misused the jargon and don't seem to understand the difference or how backdash interacts with ID as evidenced by the fact you even did a distance test (and did it wrong on top of that), which any of us could have told you was a complete waste of time. The things you don't seem to understand are a bigger deal than if you had just misspoke. You apparently don't know what a punish is, and can't see the difference between throwing someone out of their recovery frames and having enough time to collider them (which itself is a thoroughly confused statement). Also, the line "too early after gadget" is wrong, but that could be just an english mistake.

I'm guessing you are kinda new to this whole higher level thing, which is cool. We were all new once and all have things to learn still. You misused a few terms and made a mistake or two regarding the game's system. That's not a huge deal, people do it all the time (especially with tager), but you're really arguing for some of it against some of us who have been examining the game data and competing seriously since CT, or before that if you want to count other franchises. When we all seem to disagree with you, you can (and I encourage you to) take it as an opportunity to learn something.

I recommend you question where your confidence comes from and go ahead and ask someone if you have a question. Even when what you mean is correct you weren't really able to express it in fighting game terms and I wasn't the only one who let you know that your backdash bit and your first attempt to explain it were both said in ways that didn't convey that message at all. There's a lot to learn and there kinda always will be. That's ok. We work together, we ask questions, and we correct each other when we make a mistake. We learn from and teach each other.

I'm sorry if I offended you by talking about weak arguments and stuff. I used to be on the debate team and get kinda irritated when people get confrontational without a solid parliamentary style argument to back it up. That's pretty much a flaw in my personality and it has gotten me into fights before. Not every disagreement has to be a debate; I'm just weird, but I'll do my best to work with you politely, if you work with us too.

BTW Tager mains, I love you guys.

[TagerTime]

snip.

You really need to get over yourself, you seem to have a superiority complex or something. Its not worth my time to get dragged into an internet argument and point out all the things you said that you are wrong about. Unlike you i have better things to do with my time.

Btw, i always root for tager to win but this made me sad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ystF1vE5OEE&feature=channel_video_title#t=341

[A.X.I.S.]

But TT Osuna only post when someone is wrong or when he thinks they are wrong.

That's just what he does.

Right wrongs and sound really really jaded while doing so.

I love you Osuna.

[Osuna]

But TT Osuna only post when someone is wrong or when he thinks they are wrong.

That's just what he does.

Right wrongs and sound really really jaded while doing so.

I love you Osuna.

Thanks Axis. Since he's no longer defending himself I guess I'll just leave it at that. I'm not the only one who noticed what he was getting wrong, so I guess I don't have to worry about misinformation spreading.

Oh and also, there's a funny story about that video. Ok, so when it first went up the related videos were all hispanic music videos (Osuna is a spanish surname) And one of them was something along the lines of

DJ LADIDA and PACO

OSUNA- BEING FREE

Emphasis mine

Akicon was fun though. Getting to grand finals impressed the hell out of the guys from Canada and made Huey saltier than I've ever seen him (He got 3rd).

Edit: Oh wait he linked the winners finals, which I won. Grand finals I lose and that's where I saw the related video.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Osuna

[TagerTime]

Thanks Axis. Since he's no longer defending himself I guess I'll just leave it at that. I'm not the only one who noticed what he was getting wrong, so I guess I don't have to worry about misinformation spreading.

your a funny guy, you probably feel like you deserve an award for winnng teh internetz lolz.

Osuna- Being Free

Sounds like a pretty accurate description after watching the grand finals videos.

[FlyingVe]

Dude, drop it, you were having a reasonable discussion here a while ago, now you sound like a little baby. Saying something wrong, or off, isn't a bad thing. Everybody does it, and all of us made assumptions when we were new to the game that were just flat wrong. It's really no big deal. But when your gonna try to prove the whole community wrong, you'll need better evidence or credentials than an "I said so". In the end, we can and do work together to figure this stuff out. So... grow up, which should be easy considering you can be whatever age you want on the interwebz.

Also, I watched the grand finals, he did fine.

Lol. Osuna is one of the nice ones.

[Nini Heart]

Osuna's got a hatter. Which canadian guys btw? Toronto?

[Osuna]

Osuna's got a hatter. Which canadian guys btw? Toronto?

Naw, Akicon was in the pacific northwest. I mostly played a billion matches with Cakewasbannedd. Till like 7 am. There's a good photo of me from the morning after, someone has it hosted somewhere but I downloaded it and didn't bother to save the link.

[A.X.I.S.]

Osuna your Tager is solid.

You also have that "I don't give a fuck" feel to your Tager.

Good stuff.

[Astaroth136]

I just watched Osuna matches. I always thought he was one of those "all training mode and frame data, no actual play" players. The videos proved me wrong. lol

Great stuff Osuna!

[Osuna]

lol TagerTime made me popular.

More seriously, I noticed in the guide that it said all normals, aside from drive were air unblockable, but I reasonably certain that 5A and 2A aren't air unblockable. That would be too cool. Even though you couldn't really combo from 5A that way.

[Manta]

Oh, a comment worth adding somewhere in the guide which I believe is true (Needs a quick test):

Whenever a throw goes active at the same time as your opponents attack, and both should connect at the same time, the throw attempt will always win. This has useful applications against attacks that have invulnerable startup but go active on the same frame they become vulnerable again (Hazama's Jayakou Houtenjin, springs to mind). This has the great effect that if you hold down a 360B or 720C (But not 360A since that only goes active when you let go of the button) you will cleanly beat it and laugh in your opponent's face.

Also that bit about combo proration I wrote should probably go just above the combo section of the guide.

[A.X.I.S.]

When I get back from Casuals tomorrow I will edit the posts.

first post will have the links to the other thread and explanation on Tager's normals and basic combos.

Second post will be notes and the strategy section.

third post we be for extra stuff.

Expect a update tomorrow night, If not then I am sorry.

[A.X.I.S.]

I moved some stuff around so it looks a bit more neat I guess.

I will have to change the strategy section.

Break it down a bit so it wouldn't look so wall of texty.

Any suggestions?

[FlyingVe]

Use more bulletpoints, don't use a paragraph when a sentence will do.

Some of the explanations are wordier than they really have to be.

[A.X.I.S.]

Ok I just redid the strategy section.

Tell me what you think and anything else I should change.

I will be in the combo thread changing stuff...

Also CS1 links will be removed just a FYI.

I will need someone to do the CS2 combo recordings or I will find a way to do them...I have my methods if needed.

[Manta]

Forgot to mention on the gadget finger notes that you can beat backdashes with 5C and 6A. You might want to note Hakumen/Makoto's counters.

[Karsticles]

There is a (seemingly) misplaced bracket before "The change list!"