Manta Posted June 11, 2011 Posted June 11, 2011 It's written somewhat vaguely in the system guide section. That's how I interpreted it.
HolyOrderChipp Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) Yeah, the system guide did seem to say that. Apparently it even carries over from round to round, and maybe match to match? Really weird. But that's what it seems to say. And I was surprised about throws having priority over strikes. I guess they didn't entirely hate throws when they made this game. Also, if B Sledge is + on block, what makes it so awful as a dash? I mean, sure, attacks beat it... But shouldn't you be able to use it close enough that they can't reaction block it? And mix up with A Sledge. When they realize you're doing A Sledge, start throwing in its followup to CH them. And I <3 Sledge against Lambda. Edited June 23, 2011 by HolyOrderChipp
Osuna Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) Yeah, the system guide did seem to say that. Apparently it even carries over from round to round, and maybe match to match? Really weird. But that's what it seems to say. And I was surprised about throws having priority over strikes. I guess they didn't entirely hate throws when they made this game. Also, if Sledge followup is + on block, what makes it so awful as a dash? I mean, sure, attacks beat it... But doesn't the followup at least usually beat attacks used post-Sledge? I'm not a good Tager player, but this is just my experience. Also I <3 Sledge against Lambda.Because sledge follow up isn't plus on block. It's very minus on block. Even meaty it is minus on block. It's also no fully projectile invulnerable and very punishable on whiff. (There is also an 8 frame gap minimum between Bsledge and follow up) Edited June 23, 2011 by Osuna
HolyOrderChipp Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 Yeah, checked the frame data and realized it was the B Sledge itself that was + on block, then edited my post.
Osuna Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 Yeah, checked the frame data and realized it was the B Sledge itself that was + on block, then edited my post.Bsledge has 35 frames of start up, which is very reactionable, but if by "close enough" you mean close so that they don't know if it is Asledge or bsledge then it isn't being used as a command dash. The classic/current problem with that is that they can optionselect punish Both sledges if they suspect 1.
HolyOrderChipp Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 Yeah, I guess they just need to stick out a Ragna 5B or something and you're screwed... Is 2D so much better because it beats things? Seems like it would have fairly similar problems. Also, man, what's with Tager sucking game after game? It's not like they can't figure out how to make a good grappler; Potemkin was awesome in AC. I hate seeing match videos where Tager gets timed out because he just can't catch up to people.
Osuna Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) Yeah, I guess they just need to stick out a Ragna 5B or something and you're screwed... Is 2D so much better because it beats things? Seems like it would have fairly similar problems. Also, man, what's with Tager sucking game after game? It's not like they can't figure out how to make a good grappler; Potemkin was awesome in AC. I hate seeing match videos where Tager gets timed out because he just can't catch up to people.They are doing it on purpose because strong grapplers are discouraging to new players, but they are doing it the wrong way, is what I hear. And no 2D is no good either outside of combos. We have no safe or effective ways to chase people. Edited June 24, 2011 by Osuna
HolyOrderChipp Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 So then how would you make a strong grappler?
Osmond Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 For one properly balancing said grapples, since his busters do 2.7k for A and 3.7K for B which are average damages for full combos. It's their reason for making him so slow and such an easy target and making his actual combo damage degrade faster then any other character twice as fast to be exact.
Manta Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 What Tager therefore needs is moves that a strong on a Yomi layer (To say that rude word) that's above what new players operate on. Heck, it'd probably be better if all of his strengths were anti-airs and his ground to ground play sucked. But that's a little extreme.
Osmond Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 I love collider, it's the ultimate screw you anti-air, but I hate how much you have to rely on them to do any sort of damage without a buster. How about some decent defensive options for getting out of pressure, make it harder to turn him into a 500 kilo sandbag? Though, given is ground to ground already sucks so they are half way there already.
Manta Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 Let's compare grapplers's command throws: Potemkin has: A powerful ground to ground throw A powerful comboable air to air throw An unblockable ground to air throw, useful in combos A super unblockable ground to air throw, useful in combos Tager has: A ground to ground throw with some invulernability A ground to ground throw with no invulnerability but good damage A ground to ground super throw with reversal properties and big damage An unblockable ground to air throw, useful in combos and tech traps. Tager just needs some goddamn variety.
Osmond Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 Tager just needs some goddamn variety. Couldn't agree with you more.
Darlos9D Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 (edited) Yup. I always felt like we need a Heavenly Tager Driver or something, with solid reversal properties vs air (unlike any of his other anti-airs). A good air-to-air command throw would be nice too, though perhaps not quite as necessary since he already has a pretty godlike normal air throw. Also, Osmond, your avatar made me lol. Edited June 24, 2011 by Darlos9D
Osmond Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 Welp, that's why I drew it. Wanted to get a few laughs...I've got an interesting sense of humour. Y'know after two years of Tagering, I can finally comprehend the kind of relationship we've been pulled into here. Tager is like that one out of shape, fat guy who made it on the University football team but only because his hot mom is shagging the head coach. He's gets a lot of unwarranted ire for it, but you know him better then that. You wish winning personality was enough to get him through the games and you root for him anyway but you know he really doesn't belong in the roster.
HolyOrderChipp Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 So Potemkin was successful because he could be a defensive monster, and could threaten from a lot of ranges. Everything you did against him was risky. But aside from Tager having up-close problems, there's a larger issue in BlazBlue. You couldn't just plop Potemkin in and have him be successful. That is: There are much better zoning characters in BlazBlue than in Guilty Gear. Potemkin, as the saying goes, would have been the best character if not for Eddie and Testament. But in BlazBlue, a Potemkin-style character can't play that defensive style in a large number of matchups, and has to constantly try to advance. Tager needs to threaten more when people do things at him, and needs to have an easier time getting in. Moves like Hammer Fall that mean you can't just do whatever you want against him. His Tager Busters need to be faster. He's got to be scary up close. Now I could argue for instant, or 4-frame, or whatever Tager Busters, but point is, he needs to be able to punish mistakes with them. If they're instant, their damage could go down. (This would help with the grapplers dominate new players issue, 'cos newbies get hit by even slow Tager Busters all the time. The difference between instant and current speed is less, to that player, than the difference between 3.7k and 2.7k.) Thus, A Tager Buster is longer range, B does more damage. Kinda SPD-like. 0F could be problematic because they'd be good reversals, especially since throws beat strikes. So 1F speed could be appropriate. I like the idea from the other thread of projectile invulnerability on Spark Bolt. And the mini command jump. Giving him basically Mega Fist would rock. And he needs more threat range on normals, or for more of his specials to have a longer effective range. Things like 2D being better for advancing. Sledge has got to get better. Just make 'em a bit faster to start up. Maybe something with super armor. Okay, one thing I forgot: Slide Head. A wonderfully designed grappler move, one that allows a threat at any range. If Tager had something like Slide Head, would he work? Just some sort of range-agnostic move that gave him favorable positioning on hit. Doesn't need to lead to damage, just a knockdown or whatever, to let him close. And that's what I'd like for Tager.
Osmond Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 Something that knock them to the ground be nice, might keep them from running like little girls and giving us more time to yank them in. They expect magnetism pull to make up for our speed and bring them to us, but it kinda seems ineffective considering it's nulled out by just backdashing
Osuna Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 People have already brought up slidehead and I think it doesn't work very well in BB since the people who zone can do it airborn (Unless it were crazy fast, half the cast could punish it on reaction), and have tech options GG didn't have and Tager's approach options are slower and crappier. If you Did make it any good, spark would be reduced to a combo extender. People keep coming up with buff that are pretty much "Let's make him nothing like tager", which I admit freely would obviously be a buff, but he doesn't need to Potemgief+vampire slayers character whose name I already forgot. There are changes you could make to tager as he is now to make him a reasonable character. I don't think I agree that potemkin was a defensive monster, on the grounds that he had really good offense and that's what made him dangerous on defense. Pretty much everything led to heat knuckle oki (which was pretty darn good) and built meter. He had a legit and very fast low throw mix up. Hammerfall frc and break had implications for damage, combos, and burst safe stuff, but it also meant that he could kinda rush you down. His meter gain was insane, and he could spend it on all of his combos which weren't That bad meterless. He had a good anti air, and his overhead wasn't horrible. His normals were good on top of it all, his 5P wasn't the fastest but it was far from slow. FDB actually beat projectiles (But not fish). Pot Buster had invincibility on it too. He was just better than tager is in every conceivable way. Projectile invulnerability on spark bolt would make it do what it always should have, but since they aren't giving that to us I would settle for them giving it reasonable proration again. Sledge is almost always terrible anywhere except the end of a combo, so it needs Something buffed for sure. Also I think you need to define the mistakes he needs to be able to punish before you start buffing throw speed to completely unreasonable levels, because I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish. A bit faster 2D and sledge would still suck. Even if you took 5 frames off sledge it'd be 30 frames of start up. It would only make inefficient combos possible. The problem with them is they are bad moves to move forward with, they aren't made to work that way. Not even close. You'll need to completely change them to make them do that which would be the most forced change ever, to turn a move into what scrubs think it is.
A.X.I.S. Posted June 26, 2011 Author Posted June 26, 2011 They should rework Tager's normals and special moves to be more appropriate for a grappler.
FlyingVe Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 Air UB 5A/2A and a faster 5C would go along way towards the conditioning issues Tager has. 360B is really already fast enough to be a tic. Though being able to do anything with an air hit 5A would be nice. Also, Big Bang Smash, that would be so good for Tager, be able to spend meter for a fullscreen presence. The repeatable pressure issue would be really hard to fix.
Tizoc789 Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 (edited) So I FINLLY got CS and updated to CS2 and...I can't do Gadget Finger shenagins. I do GF, do a rapid cancel to set them up for the mind game but they either fall to the ground or get grabbed by Collider. Sorry for asking this late, but how can I utilize GF now? Edited June 27, 2011 by Tizoc789
FlyingVe Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 You can still do it, the timing is just different. Personally, I don't use Gadget all that much, especially now that 5D doesn't really do much.
Manta Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 Funny, I kinda use it more now that it builds so much heat. I don't fling much though.
FlyingVe Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 I mean, it depends on alot of things really, like matchup and screen position, its just the gadget mixup is so weak.
Manta Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 Oh it is weak mixup, but it is also Magnetism, some guarenteed damage and good heat at the end of the combo. The mixup seems secondary somehow. I use it to make people feel uncomfortable, I tend not to get good damage after it. When I want mixup, I find myself going for the 6A > high/low/throw nonsense.
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