[CSE-CP] Tsubaki Yayoi Simple Questions and Answers thread! Version 3!

[Adam0812]

214D is really good against people who throw themselves at you, i get haku's and ragnas with it all the time, after doing the IAD part i would keep the combo on the ground and finish with the BBB ender or CAB, or if you do take it into the air, dont double jump, just IAD j.CC > 5C > 2CC > j.CC > 236A > 214C. you can then charge with j.D and air dash j.CC for more pressure.

[Vosetri]

I've been looking at my matches for what I'm doing wrong, and from what I can tell I don't know what to do when I'm in neutral.

I don't do much of anything except back-dash or try for a

j.C

, I'm sure there is a lot more that I can do I just don't what it is.

And then whenever I have a chance to start pressure I always back out and wait for them because my hit-confirms are horrible and I don't know any mix-ups. I've been trying to get charge canceling down but it feels like it's way slower than it should be.

BTW what are some basic mix-ups, the best I can think of is:

5B > 2B > 6A > 5C > 5D > dash.5C > 2C > j.B > j.236C

(should cross-up).

And thanks for the help Kiba, Airk, and Adam.

[BatousaiJ]

I only use j.236C cross over if I want to style on someone and believe they don't know the match up.

Even then, after you do it once they should catch on making it mostly useless.

Still, you can get good damage off of it off a RC in the corner if you can get that going.

You're going to want to use 6B gatling in there for that frame advantage to continue pressure and also introduce a tricky looking low in the mix.

One of my favorite is alternating between 5B(B) > 6B/6A to keep them guessing.

Blockstrings should also include a healthy amount of throws and know how to force TRM(throw reject miss) on those who like to throw reject prematurely instead of reacting.

Then, you move on to the frame trap to catch people mashing by knowing what gatling has small holes and what moves you can delay.

Once you grasp these various techniques and concepts, at that point it's just a matter of mixing things up and cracking your opponent's defense with proper mindgames where the real meta game begins.

[Vosetri]

I only use j.236C cross over if I want to style on someone and believe they don't know the match up.

So when I'm pressuring I should avoid jumping moves since that just means all my moves are going to be overheads till I hit the floor. And for mix-up ideas I should just check the frame data on the wiki right?

Any suggestions for neutral or would I find that stuff in match-up threads?

Thanks for the help.

[Kiba]

Yea anything mixup, blockstring related can be found in the wiki. Here.

You don't have to avoid jumping moves but I would advise you to avoid relying on them. You'll find that j.CC(delay) can be very useful against those who are not too familiar with Tsubaki's delay. You can find information of the wiki too.

In terms of what to do in neutral in usually depends on the matchup. For example against Valk I would not be charging in neutral because he can get to you pretty quickly, while against Carl I may be more patient with getting in and just get back to gain more stock.

[Airk]

I'm pretty bad at neutral myself, but there are a few tips I can give:

5B is still your best space control tool, and it still comes out pretty fast, but you need to be extremely careful with how you space it and what you follow up with, because at max 5B range, pretty much every gatling you can do off it will whiff. At max 5B range, your options are:

• 5B > CC > stuff. Where stuff can be dash in 5A/5B/5C, or backdash, mostly)
  
• 5B > jump cancel. Forward or backward, generally)
  
• 5B > 22X. This will get you a knockdown on hit and allow you adjust your spacing or get some charge, and it's mostly safe-ish on block. You can also try to catch people out with 5B > 22D (hold)
  
• 5B > 236D. This sets you up for a decent combo on hit, but on block it leaves in an awkward spot, where your only real options are block or sometimes backdash.
  
• 5B > 3C. This won't actually combo at max 5B range, but if you have heat to RC with, it can catch people offguard since most people aren't prepared for a low at that range.
  
• 5B > 6C > Probably a jump cancel. This isn't really very safe, but it's an option.
  
• 
  
  
  From OUTSIDE 5B range, your only real options are:
  
  • Try to close ground by either dashing in or jumping in. Don't forget that you can bait anti-airs by jumping forwards, then double jumping straight up late in your jump arc). Also remember that you can empty jump in with barrier to bait AAs (just watch out for air throws) or without barrier to go into an immediately low or throw. (You can also 'whiff' a j.C by doing it very close to the ground. It'll start to come out, then you'll land and it'll be cancelled.). And as mentioned, j.CC can surprise people after they block j.C and autopilot to low block.
    
  • Try to make space by backdashing/jumping back/backwards air dash. More useful against some cast members than others, but creating space gives you an opportunity to get charge, and also to use some of your defensive options (Tsubaki's 2C is a pretty fierce anti-air and can lead into decent damage.) if your opponent chases after you. Sometimes backwards jump j.CC or backwards airdash j.CC can result in people running right into your air attacks.
    
  • 236C/D - not as good as they used to be, but if you have another charge for 214D mixup, or 50 heat for rapid cancel, you can zip right up into their face and surprise a lot of people. Be careful using 236D when your opponent's back is to the corner, because you'll corner yourself, and be cautious with 236C in general, but you need to represent these moves a couple of times during the match to keep your opponent honest. Be careful of opponents neutral jumping over these, or hitting your with projectiles or counters though.
    
  • 214X - mostly really only 214D. You can do 214A/B if you have charge or heat to cancel with, but they don't really lead into enough damage to be worth the risk most of the time. 214D can lead into pretty good damage on a raw hit and beats a lot of characters poking options. You don't want to be too close when you use it though, or you increase your chance of getting 2A'd out of it, or of getting hit by a poke before the invulnerability kicks in.
    
    
    From 5BB range or less is when Tsubaki's pressure and mixup starts being a little dangerous. The most important thing at this range is to be aware of how far your attacks reach, because you really don't want to whiff something. But if you are close enough for 5BB to hit, you can start doing:
    
    • 5B(B) > 2B - A low
      
    • 5B(B) > 6A - a High
      
    • 5B(B) > 2B > 6A - a low then a high
      
    • 5B(B) > 2BB - two lows
      
    • 5B(B) > 6B > dash 5A - a weird delayed low that gives frame advantage for a dash in
      
    • 5B(B) > Charge Cancel > Stuff
      
    • 5B(B) > 2B > Stuff - you don't actually want to charge cancel 2B - it makes your frame advantage worse, but 2B is only -1, so it's a pretty safe place to try to reset your string/dash in as long as your opponent isn't expecting it.
      
    • 5B(B) > (2BB) > 5C© > 6B(B) - the "long string"; Vulnerable to barrier pushback and kinda predictable, but occasionally still worth doing to keep your opponent honest. If you do 6B at the end you can dash to try to extend pressure, if you do 6BB at the end your only real option is to do a 22C or something and end your pressure, but if someone autopilots trying to jab you out of a 6B > dash 5A, 6BB will stuff them. You don't get much for it without charge or corner though.
      

    Most of your max range 5B options also remain relevant, but remember you can't jump cancel 5BB on block. 2B/6A stuff -may- not work at the extreme edge of 5BB range, though 2B actually has more range than it looks like it does.

    Once you reach 5A/5C range (Technically I think 5C has slightly longer range but it's pretty close) then options really open up, because you keep all your 5BB range options above, and add:

    [*]5A(5A)(5A) > Throw

    [*]5A(5A)(5A) > Dash > Stuff (Basically anything from the 5A area)

    [*]5A(5A)(5A) > Jump cancel > stuff

    [*]5A(5A)(5A) > 5B(B) > Throw

    [*]5A(5A)(5A) > (5BB) > 2B > Throw - The 5BB is entirely optional. A low into a throw.

    [*]5A(5A)(5A) > 6A - A high again

    [*]5A(5A)(5A) > delay 5B/5C (This is a frame trap, for people who are trying to catch you dashing in)

    [*]5C©>6B - slower, frametrappy, and a low. Also, 5C and 5CC are big damage starters.

    Okay, that was a long arsed list of stuff, and it doesn't even include a lot of the fancy stuff, but the general gist is - understand what will REACH (this is actually one of the hardest things for me), get them to block whatever it is, then go into...something that will continue to make them block. Work your way in until you have better mixup options, then vary throws, highs and lows, using charge cancels and 6B, along with strings of irregular length, to keep them guessing.

[Vosetri]

BEST DAMN WALL OF TEXT EVER

Thanks so much I'll make sure to remember this stuff and get a better feel for the neutral stuff against the CPU.

Training mode for the rest of the day!

[Airk]

Glad you liked it. The one thing I left out that I kinda feel like I should've included is that naked 3C is viable pretty much anytime you're in range for it if you have 50 meter. If you don't, I would say that you should probably refrain unless you feel like you've got a great read.

[Wild Candy]

I'm sure you get this question asked tons, when are the best times to charge with Install? And when are the best times to use those charges?

[Kiba]

Yes, and they are listed in the FAQ.

Questions 5 and 10.

[ninetysixgoals]

I've been playing BBCS2 for a while, but I just got Extend yesterday and I'm looking to see how much Tsubaki has changed.

1. Is she overall better or worse than before? Where is she roughly on the tier list? (not like tiers matter at my level anyway, I'm just curious)

2. What notable changes to her moves/combos should I be aware of? The only things I've noticed so far are that 5B has slower recovery, and 5CC can combo into 6BB now. I don't need full frame data or anything like that, just anything that might have affected her BnBs from BBCS2.

[Airk]

I've been playing BBCS2 for a while, but I just got Extend yesterday and I'm looking to see how much Tsubaki has changed.

1. Is she overall better or worse than before? Where is she roughly on the tier list? (not like tiers matter at my level anyway, I'm just curious)

She is significantly weaker than she was in CS2; In CS2, she was pretty much the middle of the tier list, in Extend she is in the unofficial bottom tier. (The last "official" tier lists have her in B tier, asserting that she's not any lower in the list than say, Jin, or Litchi. I think these lists are underestimating just how much better the really good Tsubaki players need to be to compete at the level they are competing at.)

2. What notable changes to her moves/combos should I be aware of? The only things I've noticed so far are that 5B has slower recovery, and 5CC can combo into 6BB now. I don't need full frame data or anything like that, just anything that might have affected her BnBs from BBCS2.

Actually, 5CC comboed into 6BB in CS2, but only on crouchers, which is the same way it owkrs in extend.

The biggest changes in terms of moves are:

Pretty much all specials are now minus on block. In CS2, properly spaced 236X, 236D, 22C and 22D were plus on block. Now all of these are minus to varying degrees.

5B is slightly slower to come out, and has markedly more active and recovery frames. It is no longer plus on block, nor is 2A.

5C is now significantly faster.

3CC now adds bonus proration

The biggest changes in terms of combos are:

DP whiff combos are no longer really practical in Extend. Technically there's a 623B > j.214b (whiff) > superjump combo, but it's an air ender and rarely used.

Counterhit 22A no longer allows a full IAD combo.

There's a lot of other stuff, but the general gist is "You'll be doing less damage, and your neutral is less safe."

[ninetysixgoals]

She is significantly weaker than she was in CS2; In CS2, she was pretty much the middle of the tier list, in Extend she is in the unofficial bottom tier. (The last "official" tier lists have her in B tier, asserting that she's not any lower in the list than say, Jin, or Litchi. I think these lists are underestimating just how much better the really good Tsubaki players need to be to compete at the level they are competing at.)

Actually, 5CC comboed into 6BB in CS2, but only on crouchers, which is the same way it owkrs in extend.

The biggest changes in terms of moves are:

Pretty much all specials are now minus on block. In CS2, properly spaced 236X, 236D, 22C and 22D were plus on block. Now all of these are minus to varying degrees.

5B is slightly slower to come out, and has markedly more active and recovery frames. It is no longer plus on block, nor is 2A.

5C is now significantly faster.

3CC now adds bonus proration

The biggest changes in terms of combos are:

DP whiff combos are no longer really practical in Extend. Technically there's a 623B > j.214b (whiff) > superjump combo, but it's an air ender and rarely used.

Counterhit 22A no longer allows a full IAD combo.

There's a lot of other stuff, but the general gist is "You'll be doing less damage, and your neutral is less safe."

Good to know, thanks. It looks like it's going to be an uphill battle for Tsubaki and me...

Another question. I usually use dash 5B and airdash j.CC to approach to enemy; are these still my best options or is there something safer/better I could use?

[Airk]

Good to know, thanks. It looks like it's going to be an uphill battle for Tsubaki and me...

Another question. I usually use dash 5B and airdash j.CC to approach to enemy; are these still my best options or is there something safer/better I could use?

No, those are still good tools (be careful airdashing too much, it makes you predictable and easy to anti-air), though dash 5A, dash 2A and dash 5C are all legit as well. (5A and 2A were better in CS2 but still work in Extend because they're fast, 5C was not a good plan in CS2, but is pretty quick in Extend - only two frames slower than 5A and two frames faster than 5B.)

There are other options that are available (236C RC, 214D at certain ranges, 3C if you have 50 meter, etc) but they are all more niche.

In fact, just see my post at the top of this page. x.x

[Kakimori]

So is there ANY point in using 236X anymore except (a) in a combo or (b) a couple of times a match as you said to keep them honest or © to extend the distance of 214D? Even spaced properly, you're still pretty screwed on block and there's not much difference anymore between 236A, 236B, and 236C.

[Airk]

So is there ANY point in using 236X anymore except (a) in a combo or (b) a couple of times a match as you said to keep them honest or © to extend the distance of 214D? Even spaced properly, you're still pretty screwed on block and there's not much difference anymore between 236A, 236B, and 236C.

Sure; If you have 1-2 charges, you have a rekka-style mixup - you can catch lots of people with 236C > 214D or 22dD on block. Neither of those is strictly safe, though, so if you're seriously worried about a punish, you may want 50 meter too. Similarly 236C > RC is free pressure if they block it.

Also, 236C is strong backdash punisher - if you can call out a backdash, it gets you up in their face for some damage and more pressure, so if you can identify where your opponent likes to backdash, you can punish, chargeless.

That said, the most important thing about 236C is to get your opponent to respect it so that you can then not do it.

[TheGreatReptar]

I wouldn't really call 236C a strong backdash punisher considering its terrible proration values. It works as one, but I wouldn't really call it strong, especially considering it's unsafe if it's just blocked. Someone's really unlikely to backdash unless you're on top of them while they're getting up already, so run up 5B's almost always going to be a more effective and safer option for trying to catch a backdash (and 3C's way better when you have 50 meter to burn).

Personally, I hate 236C/D for approaching people. I just about never use it against Ivysaur or Eshi. They react to it and DP me out of it all the time. The risk/reward just isn't worth it against good players. It's largely just an intermediate gimmick.

[Airk]

I wouldn't really call 236C a strong backdash punisher considering its terrible proration values. It works as one, but I wouldn't really call it strong, especially considering it's unsafe if it's just blocked. Someone's really unlikely to backdash unless you're on top of them while they're getting up already, so run up 5B's almost always going to be a more effective and safer option for trying to catch a backdash (and 3C's way better when you have 50 meter to burn).

It works at any range though, so if you are encountering, say, Ragna players who liked to backdash after long range 2D, or Lambda/Mu players who backdash at neutral under certain circumstances, this connects when other options won't. 3C covers a lot less ground and a lot less quickly, so it's easily possible to whiff it, which leaves you in a bad place.

It's DPable, yes, though you can beat many DPs with a 214D cancel too. The biggest problem is people jumping over it, really.

[Kiba]

I would highly advise against using 236C as a backdash punish. Attempting so can lead to guessing for the low reward through the high risk of getting punished and placed in a disadvantageous position. Though fair enough it can be covered with 214D/22D, but again if they're blocked you're in for it. It's only really useful for drive follow ups to catch players off guard and to punish opponents whiffing attacks at long range. Even then 236D is better, and as TGR said even 3C will suffice if they are not that far provided you have the heat to compliment it.

236C is also useful for getting under players if you have to. It's also extremely useful against valk players who like to run around in .

[Kakimori]

Yeah, basically the only things I use 236C for are punishing obviously punishable moves if my opponent does something stupid while feeling safe because of distance and going under jumping opponents. I've learnt that I tend to get blown up when it's blocked.

But I mean...in CS2 there was A POINT to 236A, 236B, and 236C. They rewarded optimal spacing with various degrees of frame advantage or disadvantage. Now, why would you ever use anything other than 236C except for the SLIGHTLY faster startup? It's just bad game design...I hope they change this in Extend but I'm not holding my breath.

[Adam0812]

Yeah, basically the only things I use 236C for are punishing obviously punishable moves if my opponent does something stupid while feeling safe because of distance and going under jumping opponents. I've learnt that I tend to get blown up when it's blocked.

But I mean...in CS2 there was A POINT to 236A, 236B, and 236C. They rewarded optimal spacing with various degrees of frame advantage or disadvantage. Now, why would you ever use anything other than 236C except for the SLIGHTLY faster startup? It's just bad game design...I hope they change this in Extend but I'm not holding my breath.

If your close to your opponent when they whiff, 5c CH > 6c > stuff is probably the best punish in terms of reliability. If you have 50 and 1 charge, 5c CH > 6c > mugen > 623d > j236d > j214d > 2cc > IAD > jcc > 5c > 2cc > 236c > 214a > 22b (hold more for more untech time) does about 5.5k. You can do slightly more with an air combo ender, but for me it's not worth giving up time for a charge and/or oki after.

To sum up 5c > 6c =

[Airk]

If your close to your opponent when they whiff, 5c CH > 6c > stuff is probably the best punish in terms of reliability. If you have 50 and 1 charge, 5c CH > 6c > mugen > 623d > j236d > j214d > 2cc > IAD > jcc > 5c > 2cc > 236c > 214a > 22b (hold more for more untech time) does about 5.5k. You can do slightly more with an air combo ender, but for me it's not worth giving up time for a charge and/or oki after.

To sum up 5c > 6c =

I think you missed his point about "punishing where they feel safe due to distance" - sometimes people whiff punishable moves all the way on the other side of the screen and there's absolutely no way you are getting there with a dash anything, nevermind 5C, which has very short range.

Kiba's right though, 236C is great for Valk players who like to wolf out and run around on the ground.

I agree that it's pretty stupid of them to have reduced the other 236 options to combo filler, but honestly, I still feel like most of the decisions they made for Extend Tsubaki were dubious to poor, so this one doesn't particularly stand out.

[Errol]

It's just bad game design...I hope they change this in Extend but I'm not holding my breath.

CS2 was bad game design. CSEX Tsubaki is just a bit too weak.

[TheGreatReptar]

Yeah, basically the only things I use 236C for are punishing obviously punishable moves if my opponent does something stupid while feeling safe because of distance and going under jumping opponents. I've learnt that I tend to get blown up when it's blocked.

But I mean...in CS2 there was A POINT to 236A, 236B, and 236C. They rewarded optimal spacing with various degrees of frame advantage or disadvantage. Now, why would you ever use anything other than 236C except for the SLIGHTLY faster startup? It's just bad game design...I hope they change this in Extend but I'm not holding my breath.

I use 236A at fullscreen sometimes to see if the other person is looking to punish a 236C. I do it on Hakumen a lot actually. That's the only real use that I can think of for A and B outside of combos though.

[Airk]

I use 236A at fullscreen sometimes to see if the other person is looking to punish a 236C. I do it on Hakumen a lot actually. That's the only real use that I can think of for A and B outside of combos though.

Yeah, you can occasionally do some dirty stuff to Hakumen players who like to push D when they hear the voice sample for shield rush. 236B > 22D is humorous.

CS2 was bad game design.

Care to elaborate? Because generally moves being more useful is better design than "these moves are just combo filler", in which case they might as well not really exist at all.