[CS2] Tsubaki vs Makoto

[Ginseng]

Discuss the Tsubaki vs Makoto matchup here.

[HajinShinobi]

Need a good descriptive overview of this matchup, seeing as how I got my ass handed to me against this really solid and aggressive Makoto player. -_-

[BatousaiJ]

Err... for starers be wary of her overhead gatling, and her 3C which will go right "under" any and all 236x moves.

Watch out for the infamous tail when she's in the air as that'll change the timing of when you should intercept with 2C. Know what moves of her's is + on block and respect it and don't try to just mash her out unless you're calling out a overhead or crossover transition.

Makoto's DP is pretty good as well with good invinc so bait and punish just as you would inferno divida.

It takes a long time to catch on to Makoto's mix up option and getting caught in the corner against her can often times spell doom so this is a match up where it's all about getting used to her gatlings and mix up options(make sure you use barrier to push away and counter assault when you find yourself locked down in the corner) while not getting baited to using 236x as they'll just 3C that all day to your dismay.

Makoto's the only character that can effectively and easily shut down our 236x and 2C option with relative ease so this is a tough, tough match up through and through. Just get used to fighting her and hope for the best.

I'll add something more here after I get some matches against Omniscythe.

[HajinShinobi]

.It takes a long time to catch on to Makoto's mix up option and getting caught in the corner against her can often times spell doom so this is a match up where it's all about getting used to her gatlings and mix up options(make sure you use barrier to push away and counter assault when you find yourself locked down in the corner) while not getting baited to using 236x as they'll just 3C that all day to your dismay.

^This.

It was really the mixup game that was getting me alot of the time, trying to be wary of 6B, 2B and Astroid Vision kept throwing me off quite abit. I can see moves just fine, but my reaction time in fighters are quite off abit (pretty much have been playing Gears of War 2 and Beta3 for the past 4-5 months), so I'm working on that. I caught after about 2 matches but the Makoto was better sooooo.....

And I didnt know her 3C could go under the 236X series. That's good to know, hmmm..

All I can really say is that I need to do alot more studying now, but thanks for the advice.

[Airk]

Makoto's 3C will go under 236X if done on reaction, but the move itself is kinda weird - it can be hit out towards the end of its active frames, but you don't really want to play that game.

Try to get in the habit of countering Furry Tail with 623B, and you'll have less to worry about from a jump-in perspective, because you won't have to worry about clashing 2C.

Try to figure out where your opponent likes to go for the overhead - Makoto's overhead is the fastest in the game unless you count stuff like Rachel's winded j.A, so a lot of players get really predictable with it. 5A>5B>5C>5CC> 6B/2C is the Makoto scrub blockstring of choice, and you can DP it without instant block after the 5CC regardless of which option they pick. You can also jab them out of the 2C, but mashing jab will result in you getting Counterhit from the 6B option, so it's not really recommended.

Don't try to do anything after blocking 3C - it's +2 on block, and you'll just get a jab in the face. Try to use 2A or 2B to stuff 3C before it hits instead.

and like BattousaiJ said - counterassault your way out of pressure as often as possible.

Edit: Another thing I've noticed Japanese players doing against Makoto lately is bursting the combos that would put them in the corner, rather than waiting and then bursting a corner combo. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not, but it might be worth thinking about.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Airk

[Eshi]

Makoto's DP has an awful low hit box. Against most regular characters, if they do a well-spaced meaty that lowers their hitbox Makoto's DP will completely whiff. I'm not sure what Tsubaki can do to take advantage of this yet, I'd love to know.

Like Tsubaki, Makoto is extremely scary up close but is countered hard by barrier guard. If she's pushed back far enough she has no choice but to take a risk to get close again, which is when you 5B her face. Be aware that she can delay a bunch of her strings for frame traps, so mashing out of strings is way too dangerous otherwise.

Always be on the look-out for 6B and 2C. ALWAYS. Getting complacent and eating a 2C = you lose but it's so easy to avoid. Makotos love to throw out 6B after landing from the air and after doing some 2A's, it's easy to block when you look out for it.

[EdWORLD]

I wouldn't recommend doing 623X on furry tail on wake up since Makoto will completely destroy it if she's completely above you. Also, I'm not sure if it changed in CS2, but Tsubaki's crouching jab used to go OVER her 3C and would completely whiff. I would also watch out for Makoto's DD where she does a huge punch during j.214, as I've seen a lot of Makoto's bait with it. Makoto's will also astral vision above you or behind you mid string when they notice you've been using barrier a lot. Gonna go out on a limb and say this is probably one of the worst if the not the worst match up for Tsu.

[Airk]

Agreed - never use 623X on ANYTHING when the opponent is directly above you.

2A SHOULD hit 3C at any point. The hitbox isn't THAT low, and it's only invulnerable to head/body (THIS is actually why so much stuff 'whiffs' on it - it's not the hitbox, which isn't really much lower than Makoto when she's crouching, but the fact that the move has head/body invulnerability for most of its lengthy startup. 236D, for example, hits low enough to the ground than it can OTG the entire cast, but it'll 'whiff' on Makoto's 3C due to the invulnerability frames.). Unless someone has experience with it not hitting, I think it's safe to assume that it does. (I don't see a lot of Makoto 3C in high level play. This is probably why. Most Makotos will reserve this move to try to hit you out of 236X on reaction.)

[EdWORLD]

Agreed - never use 623X on ANYTHING when the opponent is directly above you.

2A SHOULD hit 3C at any point. The hitbox isn't THAT low, and it's only invulnerable to head/body (THIS is actually why so much stuff 'whiffs' on it - it's not the hitbox, which isn't really much lower than Makoto when she's crouching, but the fact that the move has head/body invulnerability for most of its lengthy startup. 236D, for example, hits low enough to the ground than it can OTG the entire cast, but it'll 'whiff' on Makoto's 3C due to the invulnerability frames.). Unless someone has experience with it not hitting, I think it's safe to assume that it does. (I don't see a lot of Makoto 3C in high level play. This is probably why. Most Makotos will reserve this move to try to hit you out of 236X on reaction.)

I play a Makoto regularly, and in CS1 Tsubaki's 2A ALWAYS whiffed on 3C. Will have to try it out now though, hopefully it doesn't as 3C gives me a lot of problems in this match up.

[Airk]

I play a Makoto regularly, and in CS1 Tsubaki's 2A ALWAYS whiffed on 3C. Will have to try it out now though, hopefully it doesn't as 3C gives me a lot of problems in this match up.

I don't know what to tell you; I just TRIED it, and 2A hits 3C out everytime, whether you do the 'default' 3C, or the extended duration spinny 3C. For the heck of it, I backdated myself to system version 1.02, verified that, yup, it was 1.02 because I could charge all the way to 5 stocks just by holding D, and tried 2A vs 3C... and 2A won every time except when I hit it too late and got counterhit.

So... I don't know where you're coming from - 2A has always worked on 3C as far as I can tell, and it certainly does now.

[Eshi]

the hittable box on 3C is slightly higher in CSII, so that's not too surprising if it's a new thing. Still it's nice to know it works, kind of annoying how many normals 3C goes under.

[Airk]

So you're saying that even backdating the system data doesn't actually undo this change? Seems sketchy.

[Eshi]

So you're saying that even backdating the system data doesn't actually undo this change? Seems sketchy.

no, just saying it would make sense why it might not work all the time in CSI but works all the time in CSII. I barely played tsubaki in CSI.

[BatousaiJ]

After taking some time getting blown up by omniscythe, I've learned a few things.

Apparently, 214D whiffs over 3C. I knew 236 did but I had no idea 214D did. I totally called out the use of 3C, broke out 214D -> whiffed and got hit.

Pretty mind blowing stuff.

Also, most of her fully charged drive moves seem to break primers so you gotta keep an eye out on your primers, especially after you burst.

I've also noticed that her block string has a lot of room for frame traps that will get you hit with a counter if you try to break the string with a 2A or something so it's often times better just to barrier block and push away. You can DP your way out of her gatling into her overhead but you'll mostly trade so it's not a free ticket out. I started getting a feel of when he would option select to do the teleport(crossover or regular) which you can beat out with a jab if you see it coming.

It's going to take a lot of match up experience before I can formulate a good offensive strategy against Makoto but this is certainly a uphill battle.

[OmniSScythe]

I like to mention that Makoto's current 3C can only be used at a reactionary move now, only the first spin will low profile and second spin is even open to 5B.

[Kiba]

Apparently, 214D whiffs over 3C. I knew 236 did but I had no idea 214D did. I totally called out the use of 3C, broke out 214D -> whiffed and got hit.

If I'm correct, 214D has a head and body attribute. It doesn't cover the foot attribute so that's why Makoto's 3C may go under it. This explains why 236X whiffs too.

You can throw Makoto out of 3C, or on reaction 22X works netting you a CH.

Edited June 4, 2011 by Kiba

[Airk]

Played a pretty dangerous Makoto today, and only pulled out a win because he really wasn't watching his primers. That said, if Makoto is actually using drive moves in blockstrings to try to break your primers, for heaven's sake, PUNISH. She can't cancel them with anything other than a rapid, and she'll be at negative something-teen. I find they're more likely to try to use Break Shot to er...break primers.

And yeah, Kiba is spot on about why 214D misses - it's NOT a hitbox thing. Makoto's 3C has the same type of invulnerability that our 214X moves have. 214X doesn't "whiff over it" it just gets ignored because of the invulnerability.

The other thing I learned from this match is, holy cow, counterassaults are your friend.

[Eshi]

Er, we more or less already know that Jin's sliding hitbox is wonky and therefore stuff will miss on him. I guess we should put a note in the combo compilation though.

Edit: Related to earlier stuff, do we think the Tsubaki vs Makoto matchup is really much worse than anyone else vs Makoto? Makoto doesn't really have anything super weird or special, she just blows you up way worse off the average hit. (Really hoping someone asked Mori the "So what did you -do- with the final loktest results, since we already knew Makoto was crazy good?" question. :P )

Edit again: No Hazamas, TWO Lambdas? Clearly, the Japanese are proving that the tiers are tight in this game. :P

in regards to makoto vs tsubaki, it feels pretty much even to me, just takes some getting used to. I haven't gone into makoto's frame data yet to figure out how to exploit all of her weaknesses yet. But regardless, they both play almost the same except their strengths are a bit different. Both have strong mixup with fantastic frame traps, really strong anti airs, short range on pokes, etc. The main difference is that tsubaki has much better mobility while makoto has waaay better average damage.

[BatousaiJ]

I'd have to disagree with you on the match up thing with Makoto Eshi.

The problem with makoto is that she has tools to make some of Tsubaki's best aspects difficult to utilize.

Starting off the 3C factor and how it slides under 236x/214x attacks. Makoto can also DP without IB in between Tsu's 5C© < 6B link in reaction and continue the DP CH combo.

Makoto's parry adds another factor for adding more trouble to what we can do with max range corner pressure with 5B as well as making Tsu players generally watch out for any attacks that you might "expect" like landing j.C hits and the like which becomes the same kind of mind game you have to play vs Haku.

We generally also lose out against her in the air to air fight with her j.B/C being a better option than what we have all the while they have a j.B CH hit confirm that's one of the easiest to land after the fact.

Then there's the furry tail which changes her speed and angle of falling which makes 2C annoying to land and if you do land it, it will often times just clash getting you no where.

Makoto's quick enough to keep pressure on Tsu to keep her from getting charges easily and add to all this her incredible antiair, poke, corner carry and damage... it's fairly obvious that this is a match up in the favor of Makoto.

I'm in the process of formulating a decent strategy against Makoto so maybe if I can get one down that works, I'll change my mind in the future but as things stand, it doesn't look all that great.

[Airk]

I don't think 3C is THAT big a factor. The timing on it now is at least somewhat precise - they HAVE to do it on reaction. If they anticipate, at least on 236X, there are enough active frames to hit them before the move ends.

DPing after 5CC is a problem with anyone who has a frame 1 DP, but can be baited by charge cancelling if they get overly happy with it. The damage from successfully baiting is about the same as the damage from the DP combo, overall, I think.

Parry is definitely a concern though, as is Furry Tail and that STUPID airborne hitconfirm.

I give this a 4.5

[Eshi]

Play less predictably if her DP is a problem, just like against any character with a DP including tsubaki. jB isn't a big problem as long as it's respected and don't stay above makoto for too long. I had no idea 214D lacked foot attribute, but omni's right, that's just on the first spin. If 3C was used that early then you have enough time to block it at least.

I'll have to take time out in training mode to experiment with j2C at different heights. It is pretty annoying. Makoto is a strong character that requires adaptation but I don't feel like she shuts down important options hard enough to be at a notable advantage (6-4).

[BatousaiJ]

She doesn't shut down things outright but she limits them and makes you wary of using them enough of them to make me think that it's about a notable disadvantage.

By how much is something I can't say so sure but it feels like a uphill battle all the same.

[Agent P]

Why is so difficult to accept that mak has a good advantage against tsu? She’s the god tier this year after all and I’m not complaining, tiers are just a part of any fighting game after all.

Mak parry and air tail alongside her great pressure and damage input makes her an uphill battle from my point of view too. I’m trying Tsubaki against Makoto and it doesn’t matter much that I know her and can block most of her strings (after all I used her a lot in CS1 so I know her pretty well) she only needs one moment to hit with something that ends in at least 4k damage and when I’m the one applying the pressure she has DP and parry to break it

I’m also trying to think in something truly effective against her and not in strategies that depends more in good luck and mak’s own mistakes. If someone has any ideas please let us know lol.

[CrescentSaber]

Makoto's pressure always seems to trip me up. For some reason I find it hard to recognize the overhead and end up eating it more often then not. I also found that it's much easier to avoid comet cannon than to simply block it. You should only block it if you can't jump over it in time because even if you block it, it removes primers and gives Makoto a chance to rush in immediately afterwards.

[Kiba]

The parry only bugs me during 5CC.

For example I'd IB 5CC and then go in for pressure. Then they'll start doing 5CC - parry, and btw, I only went in for pressure because I have this continuous thought that I can punish it on IB but I'm always proven wrong.

Apart from that you shouldn't really worry about the parry unless you're predictable. The parry loses to lows.

What Omni said in the previous page is useful too because there were times where I managed to land 5B and was clueless as to why that happened.

You're slightly ok at neutral. She has 5B to beat ours at max range I think; she has 3C to use if you're getting predictable and she could use asteroid vision to jump in. You shouldn't get too focused on charging at this range. You'd want to either find ways to get in, or get out.

From far you should be fine, but the only problem you have is comet cannon. If you block it you usually give time for Makoto to come in and rush you down, especially if you jump and block it. You can easily get over this by reacting with an air dash and getting a hit with JC - combo. Obviously she won't always shoot it, or even shoot it that far so you gotta keep an eye out.

Watch out for resets she can do too during asteroid vision, and as a matter of fact you should always block high after the 1st hit. You'll block the overhead if they do it, and unless they slightly delay the low or RC after the hit, they can't combo from it (but the latter still puts you in a defensive position).

This is another matchup I'm not particularly fond of, and I definately don't think it's in Tsubaki's favour. Tsubaki only has the tools in this matchup to get in, and she can't even afford to try to keep her out with 5B. Makoto does more damage, better pressure, possesses good oki in the corner.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Kiba