[CS2] Tsubaki vs Tager

[Ginseng]

Discuss the Tsubaki vs Tager matchup here.

Things to watch out for:

5C

2C

6A (beats your DPs and catches your backdash if magnetized), also has super armor now.

360s/720s

Gadget finger into mixup in his favor.

Sledge (beats your DPs)

If you get magnetized, you usually have to block and accept it.

Things you can use:

You have more time to charge.

2C if he jumps in on you.

5B pokes with charge cancel/jumping.

Use j.D to bait out spark bolts.

Dead angles if you can't get out of magnetized pressure.

Combo into 236236C to get him away from you.

[BatousaiJ]

With the change to IB along with Tsubaki's normals, you can pressure Tager better now without worrying about getting 360/720'ed constantly.

623D is now no longer a projectile only and will hit Tager out of his sledge(projectile invinc) so use that to your advantage if you need to DP him out of your face.

Abuse the fact that 6A doesn't have armor against lows with 2B if you see them abusing it.

Be wary of Tager's j.2C(people's elbow) as it'll screw up your anti-air 2C timing. Often times it's simple to bait the elbow and wait for him when he lands for a free combo of your choice.

Getting charge against Tager is easier than ever and with smart charge use, you should always be + on block. I predict this match up will now more or less be in Tsubaki's favor- a stark contrast from CS 1 where it was in greatly in favor for Tager.

Bonus pro troll tip-

Wait for spark bolt.

22B that shit out of the air.

Feel like a boss.

[Airk]

Kiba's trick of cancelled 5B into 22D is still applicable, and moreso, because you have more charge, AND if you want, you can cancel into different 22 moves now. 22A comes out super fast now, and while it's -9 on block, there's not really much Tager can do there. 22C is basically a minor frame trap and leaves you at plus on block. So I expect a lot of 22X is going to be happening in this match.

[Kiba]

Although this is applicable to all characters I'll specify here to help.

Tager players may use 5D - 236B

In this case, you can beat the sledge by IB'ing the 5D and retaliating with 5A.

[Kiba]

Ok I'm going to elaborate what I said in my above post. It's useful so be sure to look out for the chance!

If Tager uses 5D - 236B, you can beat it out with 5A only.

If you IB the 5D HOWEVER, you can use 5B - 6CC - 214D into IAD combo which is easy 3.9K midscreen. Alternatively you could use 5B - 214D/22D/236D. The timing for getting 5B in is quite tricky, you can't mash it out otherwise it's very likely Tager will score a CH. You need to input it just before Tager slides forward from his 236B.

ALSO, if you IB the 5D, you could even use 214D instead :3. You could also use 214A/B. If he's further away 214A works extremely well, whereas 214B works best if he's very close to you. 214D works in both situations however. The input for the 214X has to be done very early.

Just make sure you pile stocks!

Edited July 20, 2011 by Kiba

[TD]

lf you have charge and tager is jumping, it's a free charged 22d. you can space yourself within max 22d range and do this.

[Errol]

I've had pretty good success with that too. I have a feeling jd might be close though.

[Kiba]

I've found it to be a really effective method.

Although do be aware that late input and not properly measuring distance can get you 720'd. It happened to me the other night.

So we basically have more tools to make Tager's life miserable. I'll take it.

[Airk]

GGs.

I actually used Tager and Platinum because I wanted to see how you would cope with other characters.

For one thing against Tager, there were times you would do 5BB - 5CC and do nothing, in which case, I used 360B. Even if you added 22X, you would still get thrown. On a side note, I didn't know how tight 5CC-2C is. I tried to 360 you on all ocassions but it didn't work. It's good to know that though.

Actually, it depends. If you do 22A after 5CC you're safe as long as you're not magnetized (but you're at disadvantage) - there's no gap there. And I'm not sure, but I suspect strongly than 22B is also a gapless string, and much safer on block than 22A.

The best option would be to block on wakeup or if you have stock use the 623D so just in case it's block you can make it 'safe' with J236D or surprise with J214D.

You should be able to use those options with 623A as well? Unless you're worried about getting hit out before you can exercise them?

[Kiba]

Actually, it depends. If you do 22A after 5CC you're safe as long as you're not magnetized (but you're at disadvantage) - there's no gap there. And I'm not sure, but I suspect strongly than 22B is also a gapless string, and much safer on block than 22A.

I can't seem to remember now if he did 22A/B. I think I may have caught him with 22A, although my good memory is very debatable.

You should be able to use those options with 623A as well? Unless you're worried about getting hit out before you can exercise them?

Yea you can, although we've both seen what 623A is capable of....

[Airk]

I can't seem to remember now if he did 22A/B. I think I may have caught him with 22A, although my good memory is very debatable.

Well, if he's in range of a grab (or magnetized) after a 22A, you'll get him, but you wouldn't be able to get him after 5CC. And I'd expect that the pushback there would be enough to keep him from being in unmagnetized range, but I've never tried it. x.x

I'd really just suggest 5C or 5CC > Charge Cancel > Jump or backdash. That beats most of Tager's options and once he starts try to stick out normals or sledge or something to catch those, you can go Charge Cancel > 2A for a combo.

Yea you can, although we've both seen what 623A is capable of....

The hitbox is pretty weak, but the the real problem is that people can beat it by jumping "almost" over it (i.e. over the part that HITS.) OTOH, I don't think it's possible to do that on reaction, so really it's not much worse than having your DP blocked.

[Kiba]

Well, if he's in range of a grab (or magnetized) after a 22A, you'll get him, but you wouldn't be able to get him after 5CC. And I'd expect that the pushback there would be enough to keep him from being in unmagnetized range, but I've never tried it. x.x

I didn't mention that I Ib'd 5CC. Apologies. Maybe on normal block you can't but I was doing it all the times he ending with 22X and if he didn't do anything afterI remember now.

I'd really just suggest 5C or 5CC > Charge Cancel > Jump or backdash. That beats most of Tager's options and once he starts try to stick out normals or sledge or something to catch those, you can go Charge Cancel > 2A for a combo.

I wouldn't advise 5CC on Tager at all LOL. Coming from personal exp it's not hard for the player to understand how you operate. His 5C can catch your BD and AC will beat our jump on reaction + IB of 5CC. All you need against Tager on block, is 5B for poking, 2C for AA, and unblockables. :3 It's pretty much a boring rinse and repeat process.

The hitbox is pretty weak, but the the real problem is that people can beat it by jumping "almost" over it (i.e. over the part that HITS.) OTOH, I don't think it's possible to do that on reaction, so really it's not much worse than having your DP blocked.

I dunno, ever since I saw that Ragna player do it, I've been seeing it happen much more often. They would knock Tsubaki away and jump just as she's waking up. It's depressing.

[Airk]

I didn't mention that I Ib'd 5CC. Apologies. Maybe on normal block you can't but I was doing it all the times he ending with 22X and if he didn't do anything afterI remember now.

22A should STILL be safe. Even on IB, 5C or 5CC has 15 frames of blockstun, and 22A comes out in 10. That said, I would be surprised if Shrui was doing 22A (or even 22B.) because most people prefer to end strings with 22C, which leaves a gap even on normal block, though I think it has to be IB'd for Tager to counter with 360A.

Edit: 22B might actually be a frame trap for Tager's trying to 360A you, because on IB, 22B will hit 2 frames after Tager gets out of blockstun, and 360A goes invulnerable on frame...3.

I wouldn't advise 5CC on Tager at all LOL. Coming from personal exp it's not hard for the player to understand how you operate. His 5C can catch your BD and AC will beat our jump on reaction + IB of 5CC.

I'm confused. Why do people complain about Tager having such a bad anti-jump game if you can AC jumps on reaction? @_@ Yes, he has things he can do to catch both options from a charge cancel, but he has to guess. I don't think either can be done on reaction? I mean, can you 2C people who are trying to jump out on reaction? 2C is faster to come out than AC and doesn't require a complex input. (Yeah yeah, AC reaches further up, but still.). Though obviously all this changes if you're magnetized. x.x

All you need against Tager on block, is 5B for poking, 2C for AA, and unblockables. :3 It's pretty much a boring rinse and repeat process.

Z.z

I dunno, ever since I saw that Ragna player do it, I've been seeing it happen much more often. They would knock Tsubaki away and jump just as she's waking up. It's depressing.

But all they're doing is just that - jumping on your wakeup. They're committed to that action as a guess, they're not doing it in response to a DP.

[Errol]

basically, they eliminate your dp as an option, so they can pressure you on wakeup. if you just try to block a dp, you're giving up pressure

[BatousaiJ]

I'm confused. Why do people complain about Tager having such a bad anti-jump game if you can AC jumps on reaction? @_@ Yes, he has things he can do to catch both options from a charge cancel, but he has to guess. I don't think either can be done on reaction? I mean, can you 2C people who are trying to jump out on reaction? 2C is faster to come out than AC and doesn't require a complex input. (Yeah yeah, AC reaches further up, but still.). Though obviously all this changes if you're magnetized. x.x

You never... really played Tager much, have you?

As far as the Tager discussion goes, just watch out for your timing with 2C AA when they go into people's elbow. It'll change their timing for when they're coming down to ya and often times it's not the best gamble to make as j.2C CH can hurt quite a bit and leave you at the end of it in a tight spot. I think of AA'ing Tager the same way as I do Makoto with her tail as they work in the same way except if you block Makoto's she's + and can continue with whatever you wants, not the case with Tager.

[Airk]

basically, they eliminate your dp as an option, so they can pressure you on wakeup. if you just try to block a dp, you're giving up pressure

I... guess I'm still not following. They're not doing anything that blocking the DP doesn't do. If they're not reaction to your DP with the jump, then if they "try to jump your wakeup DP" and you don't do one, they are at least giving up pressure. It seems like in both cases (Jump over, and "just block") that the options are:

A) Opponent blocks/Jumps over, you DP, you get hit

B) Opponent blocks/jumps over, you do nothing, they give up pressure/get hit.

C) Opponent does not block/jump over, you DP, you hit them out of whatever else they were doing.

D) Opponent does not block/jump over, you don't DP, you are still in pressure.

Unless we think that this is something that can be legitimately done on reaction to a DP, it's still them committing to something on your wakeup. I guess this DOES mean that you can no longer DP-A and make it 'safe' with a D-cancel, but if you have a charge to do that, you can beat their jumpovers with DP-D because of the hitbox differences (I think, anyway. I've never seen any evade the D DP like this.). So I guess if you have only one charge, this makes a wakeup DP more dangerous, but with zero or two+ charges, it's pretty much the same? Or am I missing something that this maneuver does that blocking a wakeup DP doesn't do?

[Airk]

You never... really played Tager much, have you?

As, or against? I play AGAINST him plenty, sadly, and I'm not very good at it, but atomic collider is almost never a factor in that unless I tech sometime stupid. =/ I've never had a Tager reactively AC collider me out of a jumpout. It's always been a guess. (Proof that it's a guess is that I can do the same thing later in the match and watch them throw out a random AC trying to catch the jump I don't do.) My problem against Tagers is usually that I don't jump ENOUGH, and therefore leave them free to throw me. =/

I think of AA'ing Tager the same way as I do Makoto with her tail as they work in the same way except if you block Makoto's she's + and can continue with whatever you wants, not the case with Tager.

I'm sure you know this already, but Furry Tail is only + on block if it hits fairly near to the ground. If she hits you at head height, your blockstun will be mostly gone by the time she gets to the ground. This is technically true for Tager as well, but since he's so damn massive, he hits you at max height pretty much of the time.

[Kiba]

Edit: 22B might actually be a frame trap for Tager's trying to 360A you, because on IB, 22B will hit 2 frames after Tager gets out of blockstun, and 360A goes invulnerable on frame...3.

Just tested it on the PSP so I may not be truly right, but you're right dude. I didn't know you could frame trap Tager with 22B. I guess it gives us another option against Tager

I'm confused. Why do people complain about Tager having such a bad anti-jump game if you can AC jumps on reaction? @_@ Yes, he has things he can do to catch both options from a charge cancel, but he has to guess. I don't think either can be done on reaction? I mean, can you 2C people who are trying to jump out on reaction? 2C is faster to come out than AC and doesn't require a complex input. (Yeah yeah, AC reaches further up, but still.). Though obviously all this changes if you're magnetized. x.x

Well this would boil down to player specifics. It's a guessing game at first, but once they can figure out your tendencies, it becomes harder unless you bring something new into it. This is where doing things on reaction come in.

On a side note, if you use 214D and Tager IBs it, he can 360B you.

[Airk]

Just tested it on the PSP so I may not be truly right, but you're right dude. I didn't know you could frame trap Tager with 22B. I guess it gives us another option against Tager

Holy carp, I found something useful. Look at me guys, I'm contributing!

Well this would boil down to player specifics. It's a guessing game at first, but once they can figure out your tendencies, it becomes harder unless you bring something new into it. This is where doing things on reaction come in.

Well, yes, the idea would be to mix it up and maybe even throw in jabs or something. Heck, would Atomic Collider even catch a non-magnetized jump back?

On a side note, if you use 214D and Tager IBs it, he can 360B you.

If you have a 2nd charge, an immediate D-cancel to 22D would keep him in blockstun, and a very slightly delayed one would maybe CH. Very slightly delayed. x.x

[Kiba]

Holy carp, I found something useful. Look at me guys, I'm contributing!

LOL.

Heck, would Atomic Collider even catch a non-magnetized jump back?

Yup.

If you have a 2nd charge, an immediate D-cancel to 22D would keep him in blockstun, and a very slightly delayed one would maybe CH. Very slightly delayed. x.x

Yea, I've been doing that. However, Tager can counter the delayed 22D with 360/720. Anything else he does would yes, indefinately result in us getting a CH. Also, Tager can outpoke the 22D he IBs the 214D with 5A. He could even IB the 214D, use 214D to block our 22D and then grab us.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Kiba

[Airk]

Yea, I've been doing that. However, Tager can counter the delayed 22D with 360/720. Anything else he does would yes, indefinately result in us getting a CH. Also, Tager can outpoke the 22D he IBs the 214D with 5A. He could even IB the 214D, use 214D to block our 22D and then grab us.

Well, 720 is gonna blow you up because of the invulnerability, but I don't think there's enough window to do much of anything else.

214D is 15 frames blockstun on IB and can be D-cancelled at any point. If you D-cancel immediately on hit (which shouldn't be TOO hard, since you have the hitstop window of 14 frames to do it in.) then it's 14 frames before 22D hits. Which means Tager is still in blockstun and you're at +3 when he gets out (Even if he IBs the 22D as well). If you D-cancel a frame or two late, or if you hold your 22D for a frame or two, it'll give him enough time to start up 360B, or start a jab (6 frames and 7 frames respectively) and get CH'd out of it. Under no circumstances should he be able to jab or 360 you out unless you do your 22D late, or maybe if he uses 360A (Which he would only be doing if he anticipated the D-cancel, I think.) The same thing applies to using Voltec Charge - it doesn't get its guardpoint until frame 6, so anything that would CH a jab or a 360B will also hit him out of that.

Assuming you are fairly precise about timing your 22D, you should be able to beat anything he throws out except DDs - both MagnaTech Wheel and GETB will blow you up.

[Kiba]

Dunno if anyone knows this.

You can purple throw Tager after he blocks a 236D. It's not impressive but it does stop you from getting 360/720/MTW'D.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Kiba

[HajinShinobi]

That's good to know.

Oh yeah, I managed to hit a Tager out of his Magna Techwheel Distortion with 214D at the startup of his Distortion. I meant to test this out in training last night but I fell asleep lol.

[Airk]

Dunno if anyone knows this.

You can purple throw Tager after he blocks a 236D. It's not impressive but it does stop you from getting 360/720/MTW'D if you decide to apply further pressure.

Really? That doesn't seem right. Or rather, it should stop MagnaTech wheel, because it has guardpoint, not invulnerability, and it'll beat 360B because you'll grab him before he grabs you (Should actually produce a throw counter purple throw?) but 360A and 720 should both be invulnerable by the time your throw lands.

Beating Magnatech with 214D seems... unlikely too because that move has SO MUCH guardpoint on it. Frame data says it starts at frame 1 as well, so the only time you should be able to hit him out with ANYTHING should be towards the END of the move, and if you're free to act at that point, you might as well let him finish. Dunno though. Something weird coulda happened!

[HajinShinobi]

Beating Magnatech with 214D seems... unlikely too because that move has SO MUCH guardpoint on it. Frame data says it starts at frame 1 as well, so the only time you should be able to hit him out with ANYTHING should be towards the END of the move, and if you're free to act at that point, you might as well let him finish. Dunno though. Something weird coulda happened!

It was kind a "Wtf moment", because I was approaching with 214D after a 236B, and the Tager did Magna Tech Wheel. 214D literally hit Tager out of the startup (this was by the corner by the way), so I just reacted to it and did 5.4K damage lol.