[CS2] Hakumen vs Lambda

[Spark]

Place holder

Punishes:

3C - On IB can be punished with 236B, 3C, 2A, and etc.

4B - Really annoying to punish even on IB. 236B might reach, 3C most likely won't. Though if for some reason they don't just hit with just the last hit you can IB the first hit and 6D in between.

j.214D - On IB can be punished with 236B, or 3C. If they do it too high you can punish with slower stuff.

236C - On IB can punish with 3C or 236B.

632146D - If she has 100% meter use 6D otherwise block and punish with whatever.

236236D - Not a punish, but you should 2D or 6D through all of it. It prevents her from getting any mix up from using it. You can do 2D 2 times or do 6D 3 times while the super is out.

Anti-airing:

Lambda jumping in on you shouldn't be super common unless you blocked 236D/DC in which case you can't really anti air her. If she does jump in normally for some reason, 5A should work fine as her jump ins don't have much vertical range.

Zoning:

Lambda is pretty much in control of this fight for the entire match, except for when you either get in or if you cut something and make the orb. If you do manage to get the orb use this chance to get, do not just hide in the orb. If Lambda hits you with a D attack while the orb is behind you the 2nd D attack will likely be absorbed by the orb, so it's likely her combo will drop. So it's good to keep this in mind.

Their game plan:

Basically most will zone with D moves fishing for free damage. When you are knocked down they will either use 236D/DC to force you to block a mix up or use 214D/DC to maybe get a mix up and break a primer.

At mid screen if you block 5C they can do 4B(2nd hit only) overhead or 3C low. Which unless you are in the corner or they have 50 meter they can't do anything off the low. If you block 2C they might be getting ready for a TK j.214D overhead or feign into a 3C, which for either without 50 meter or corner they can't really get anything out of. Also new in CS2 is the 5C > 2C and the 2C > 5C chains, so keep that in mind.

Strategy:

First thing to keep in mind is that as Hakumen using reversal 2D/6D will keep you from ever having to block 236D/DC or 214D/DC on wake up. So you don't have to worry about losing primers to 214D/DC or mix up from 236D/DC.

Regarding 236D/DC you can fit 2 6Ds or 2 2Ds in there if you counter it as soon as you can. 2D is safer, but doesn't go as far and depending on when you actually counter you might not be able to get a 2nd one. 6D is more risky, but you can grab Lambda if they already preemptively jumped at you ready to mix you up.

Trying to get in:

This can be pretty annoying as 6D will hit you out of your dash, air dash, and forward/neutral jump. 5D will hit you out of dash, 623A and forward/neutral jump if you're unlucky. 2D will get you at the end of your air dash if you do it.

Ok so the things to know are that 5D is not jump cancelable, goes into all of her other Ds, is special cancelable and is negative on block and so is it's follow up. So your options on block are:

If she does>

214D/DC: Jump up and cut it (to gain some ground) or 4C her if your fast and she's close enough for a combo.

236D/DC: Jump up and over it for your free j.2C.

6D: If your crouching it should whiff and you get to ground dash in for free.

2D: She'll do this if she thinks your IAD in after blocking the 5D, it's pretty risky and if she whiffs it you can dash in for whatever.

4D: If she's close you can try to 623AA her before it hits you. Or you can 6D or if you're fast 5D it and if she does 4DD it will go through you and you get to IAD/dash in for free. If she does not do anything it's like you just blocked a 5D and the situation is reset.

236A: She's going in for a string into mix up most likely so get ready for it.

236B: You can try to counter it, but it's safer just to IB and start your pressure.

236C: IB and punish.

Nothing: Dash in, but it can be risky because she can do a delay 6D to catch this.

Ok if you block a 6D mid screen it either means you were in the air or you were standing. If you were in the air than she can pretty much get a free guard primer from you by doing some air Ds into j.214D and there's not much you can do about it. If you're on the ground and she jump cancels into her j.2D she can try to break a primer with j.214D, but if you IB it you can 214A at her and punish it if she did it too high. If not than you're still right next to her. If she does the j.214D fake into another j.2D you can 623A in between and this should put you right next to her as she whiffs j.2D.

I didn't mention this earlier, but after IBing Lambda 2C you can 5A which will beat TK j.214D/DC if she's close and is safe even if she AD backwards and does j.2D because you'll recover in time. But be careful as this will obviously lose to 3C.

Even knowing all of this it is important to never give Lambda any free damage, either from trying to cut her 5D/6D/2D which can work is not a very risk to take, or just not blocking them and getting randomly it. Every time you get hit by 6D in the air that's at least 2k damage you're taking that you didn't need to take.

Remember her gravity field is not a DP anymore so you have more freedom to do what you want once you get in.

Getting in is just about taking it slowly(ie. walk forward a little and then crouch to dodge 6D), waiting for her to whiff swords and not taking any unneeded risks.

Char specific details:

If you 236236D her 4D and she does the follow up sword she cannot jump out of the way of the super in time.

Her 5C is considered purely a projectile now, so she can move after you 236236D her 5C.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Spark

[Rudi]

Few things I'd like to contribute if that's ok.

If lambda does a 2C 3C up close, you must IB the 3C to punish it, if she's close, you do 236B to punish her. If she cancels into 214D after the 3C, use 214A to punish it. If you ever see Lambda do 236C, j2C to create a void, it helps so much. Also, while getting in, look out for her 4D (overhead) and Yukikaze on reaction. I think you can Yukikaze her DD too and she doesn't have enough time to jump away from it. Also, if you suspect the lambda will do an airstring into 214D, use 623AA to go under it and counter her.

[Spark]

She has ~17 frames to jump out of the way if you super counter her swords super.

[toanenadiz]

If lambda does a 2C 3C up close, you must IB the 3C to punish it, if she's close, you do 236B to punish her.

You have to be careful about this. Lambda can frame trap you after you IB her 3C by doing her 214A(gravity well) to try and get a fatal counter.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Gravity well is a fatal now? Haven't noticed.

[zreb]

It only has throw invuln now, so you don't see it too often outside combos.

[WolfCrimson]

I've found that:

-At mid-close range, where most swords can't hit, where she would usually try to 5CCCCC, you can do Kishu>enma and combo afterwards.

-You can Yukikaze her overhead sword DD and it'll hit, but after her million swords DD she has time to jump out of it. Does Yukikaze still have that incredible speedy startup when catch is on frame 1?

-Also, since lambda doesn't have meterless DP, after you end a combo in the corner, be wary of them trying to superjump airdash out. If you do air throw, you can do a combo again. Even if they tech it, you can jC afterwards, which even on block would keep them in corner.

Edited June 17, 2011 by WolfCrimson

[Wander]

I remember in CS1 (online), whenever i teched a throw the air and tried to j.C, lambdas aerial Ds always hit me first while the j.C missed. Is that normal and is it the same in CS2?

Another question, after a throw tech are both players neutral with no one having the advantage?

[Spark]

Yeah after air tech her j.D(j.2D?) will win. On ground tech both players are at neutral, but on air tech if you were the one to throw you get your air dash back.

[WolfCrimson]

Wait, really? But Hakumen's jC is faster than her jD and j2D, how is that possible? Is it because of the distance?

[ryokoalways]

Occasionally, you can option select using tk hotaru to beat her charge.

If she does charge A> throw, you go airborne before throw comes out and you win with hotaru.

If she does charge B, you will block it.

If she does charge C, you will dp her with hotaru.

You only get beat if she does charge A into blocking. However, do not overly abuse this as it is stupid to nerf your meter gain and lose 2 star unless you are absolutely sure the nu is going for an attack.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Wait, really? But Hakumen's jC is faster than her jD and j2D, how is that possible? Is it because of the distance?

Not surprising with that 1 frame nerf to jc. Haven't played lambda yet, nice info ryoko.

[WallJumpMan]

fuck i shud have read this thread

when my match against pain is posted i will need lots of advice telling me wut i shud have done

except obviously block swords (i rly rly thot i was but i guess i just held back a couple frames to late)

[someonewhodied]

Lambda's 6D beats almost everything. Just ask Mac Chaos. He experienced my noob spam first hand.

6D picks up Haku's grounddash from about Haku's 4C range.

6D Picks up airdash

6DD>236C gives an air unblockable forcing you to barrier. Lambda can still safely retreat through you with 236A if you barrier.

6D picks up command dash about 1/3rd of the screen away. (Maybe a bit less)

6D comes out faster than Haku's jump and j2A/j5C/j2C (well, faster than if you jump and attack when 6 starts. If you predict it you can still hit it with your sword)

6D ONLY does not pick up a high jump 100% the time. its all based on perfect timing with Haku's high jump.

Using a haku drive counter doesn't help either side.

Lambda can jump cancel 6D so using a counter super is useless.

You can still bind 6D with Haku's 2C but that can be predicted and Lambda's 5D(CH)>236C is big damage. Other than that, there isnt much you can do against a lambda that is spamming 6D AND knows when to stop and get away if you approach slowly.

unless theres some way of approach im forgetting?

[dioxideUniversa]

All these things seem to be sort of implying that the Haku is doing said things at the wrong time, which I feel isn't saying much. Similarly, if the Lambda is using 6D when she shouldn't and whiffing it, it's 45 frames recovery. If Haku is walking forward and crouching, it will whiff if he stays out of range. Since it takes so long to recover, he can easily hop in and begin pressure. This is in Spark's post.

Edited November 16, 2011 by dioxideUniversa

[mAc Chaos]

You just have to wait for your opening.

[toanenadiz]

Waiting is for punks. CREATE YOUR OWN OPENING!

But seriously listen to Mac. Don't be afraid of winning by time out

[someonewhodied]

Mac beats me by timeout most of the time .-.

Heres some tests I did:

6D is still the greatest move for lambda in this moveset.

If you try to crawl forward, lambda can shoot a random 5D.

If you get hit, eat 2K damage

If you bind 6D, Lambda can spam 6DD and the second sword can still hit you.

6DD (Blocked)>236C is NOT a good idea for lambda. Haku is usually out of range if 6DD is blocked and lambda uses 236C. Haku can get a free 3C(CH) or 4C(CH)

Still dont get hit or block 6DD. 6DD(Blocked)>236D~C can not be avoided easily. (Note the easily part) so getting hit or blocking 6DD gives lambda damage or a free mixup.

2B is useless for both characters as pokes or combo starters in this matchup. If you are close enough to do a 2B(either character) in this matchup and its not Mid-Combo, one of the players is doing something wrong.

Thats all of the notes i took during my battles with Mac, what i can read anyways. (my scribbling is sooo hard to read.)

Edit: Wait, more. I feel like an archaeologist deciphering my own writing.

Haku can safely throw out a 5D, 6D or 2D between the following of lambda's links:

5A>6A

5B>5C

2B>2C

2C>5C

5C>4B

5C>6C

Edited November 17, 2011 by someonewhodied

[mAc Chaos]

What's wrong with Haku's 2B? If you're close enough to do 2B that means you're getting in with Haku, so that's good.

[someonewhodied]

Haku being close up means you are close enough to be grabbed >=3. And on netplay, that is a big deal. No one ever grab rejects. Im not experienced at ALL with using haku, but i seem to see that Haku's most effective range is right outside grab range. (unless you are in the middle of a blockstring that will leave you out of that range at the end of it should it all be blocked. if that is the case, then its fine.)

And i could be crazy, but it seems like Haku's 2B has very little range. Enough that you can be grabbed at around that range.

Also like i said, i have no experience with haku. But I dont think 2B gatlings into anything without spending meter though. And meter could be used for much better things than a 214A that is sure to be blocked, a 236B that is also sure to be blocked, and 41236C that you can get hit out of. Or even 623A>Anything as you can be jabbed out of 623A last I checked.

Of course, like I said, i could be crazy, since im just thinking of this stuff. I wont be able to see or test most of it till most likely the weekend.

Edited November 17, 2011 by someonewhodied

[Naphiel]

Considering the amount of waiting and instant blocking Hakumen should be doing in this match up, using what meter you have when you do get in for damage and carrying the opponent to the corner is worth it.

I'm personally having some trouble with this match up. Can somebody give me some advice?

For the most part when I'm playing this match up I start off on the defensive, instant blocking some swords and jumping around a bit to not make myself too predictable. Once I get enough meter, usually around 4 or so, I start advancing. Normally this is just walking and awkward hopping while blocking and trying to avoid swords. If I see a sword whiff, I air dash in and start applying pressure. My main problem is actually managing to get in when Lambda has the life lead and handling the 236a/b/c mix up. Is there any way to predict which one is coming out or do I just have to try and make a good guess?

[IndigoNovember]

My main problem is actually managing to get in when Lambda has the life lead and handling the 236a/b/c mix up. Is there any way to predict which one is coming out or do I just have to try and make a good guess?

Have you tried ryokoalways's advice?

Occasionally, you can option select using tk hotaru to beat her charge.

If she does charge A> throw, you go airborne before throw comes out and you win with hotaru.

If she does charge B, you will block it.

If she does charge C, you will dp her with hotaru.

You only get beat if she does charge A into blocking. However, do not overly abuse this as it is stupid to nerf your meter gain and lose 2 star unless you are absolutely sure the nu is going for an attack.

But yeah, there are no visual indicators of which one is coming until it actually arrives, so you'll just need to read your opponent / make good guesses.

[someonewhodied]

Considering the amount of waiting and instant blocking Hakumen should be doing in this match up, using what meter you have when you do get in for damage and carrying the opponent to the corner is worth it.

I'm personally having some trouble with this match up. Can somebody give me some advice?

For the most part when I'm playing this match up I start off on the defensive, instant blocking some swords and jumping around a bit to not make myself too predictable. Once I get enough meter, usually around 4 or so, I start advancing. Normally this is just walking and awkward hopping while blocking and trying to avoid swords. If I see a sword whiff, I air dash in and start applying pressure. My main problem is actually managing to get in when Lambda has the life lead and handling the 236a/b/c mix up. Is there any way to predict which one is coming out or do I just have to try and make a good guess?

Lambda shouldn't be using a 236 A, B, or C if you block previous attacks in this matchup (Outside of wheel mixups). But if Lambda does, Just Press 1(Block)>BC>3C. If lambda does 236A, you have enough time to grab reject, or grab if you are fast enough. If Lambda uses 236B or C, you will still be in block frames when you press BC and it wont affect your 3C, which will force Lambda to get hit, block, or retreat. And if you get a grab when lambda tries 236A>Attack, 3C wont come out anyways so you wont waste time on a whiffed 3C.

[mAc Chaos]

What do you mean 1 > BC > 3C? Hit them all right after another? Or block the first hit, then try to throw, then 3C? Not sure what you mean.

[someonewhodied]

If you take into account the required timing for each thing, it should be the same as hitting them all right after another.

Its sorta like Lambda's airgrab Oki 2BB>9j.B>3C>236B>5C

If you catch a roll tech, the 2B will gatling into 6B and then J5B will come out, ignoring the 236B command, and j.5C will then come out.

If 2B whiffs, however, 2B will not gatling into 6B, and 3C comes out. You can't gatling 2B into a jump so 3C is the next command that comes out, and then 236B comes out, and you can't combo into 5C command from 236B. Its just putting the timings of 2 or more possibilities together without them interfering with each other.

For haku , 1AB>1BC>3C will make it so, like i explained it, you first time it so that you would have blocked a 236B or C, then hit AB, which will still give you a grab reject for 236A>BC from lambda.Then follow up with a 3C so that, if you grab reject, nothing comes out, if you counter-grab, nothing comes out, but if you blocked 236B or C, a 3C comes out.

Just time it how you feel necessary.

Edited November 18, 2011 by someonewhodied