Trying to break very old habits...and failing

[Luminos564]

Ok, so recently I made the decision to stop playing like an utter scrub and devote as much of my time as I can to learn how to play Blazblue "properly". In my case, to stop playing Haku-men autopilot and to utilise the system. So I dropped Haku-men and decided that I want to learn Makoto (as my main) and have Mu-12 (sub), while keeping Lambda-11 in reserve in case neither work out for me. Even bought a stick since the d-pad started causing my left thumb to seize up in intense matches.

However, things are not going well. I did not expect things to get better quick but after a month of practice on Makoto (the latter 2 are recent decisions), things are not improving in the slightest and I keep falling back to bad habits that I picked up over my years playing:

-Mashing buttons.

-Falling for the same trick over and over again.

-Using the d-pad even though I told myself not to.

...and so on.

In the end it dawned on me; why was I attempting to learn combos and match-ups when I never learned the fundementals of fighting games? I've never played them on a "professional" (always just for the fun of it), so I never learned any of the fundementals that are associated with them. Stuff like oki, hit-confirm, heck I don't even know how to read frame data. So I was wondering if anyone here has some advice for me in order for me to be a better player and remove these bad habits. What should I learn and where to start? I don't need to be a pro, but I truly want to better myself for future fighting games that I plan on playing.

Thank you in advance.

[A.X.I.S.]

Take a break from the game, practice mode a lot, don't play too much netplay.

Taking a break from the game as in don't play it for a few days lets you soak in knowledge, thats what I did when it happened to me.

I can go make a wall of text why netplay ruins you but thats just waste.

[Luminos564]

Take a break from the game, practice mode a lot, don't play too much netplay.

Taking a break from the game as in don't play it for a few days lets you soak in knowledge, thats what I did when it happened to me.

I can go make a wall of text why netplay ruins you but thats just waste.

Oh believe me, I don't frequent BB's online portion often. In general, I wouldn't even touch it if it weren't for the fact that none of my IRL buddies play the game (they're not into it like MvC3 and MK9) and I like to play against someone once in a while.

The odd thing is, I can understand what people say about characters (combos and strategy)...on paper that is. I can understand that Makoto can do a combo that looks something like this (5B>5C~C>6B>5C>5D[lv.3]>2D[Lv.3]>jD[lv.3]) and I can understand how its supposed to look like. But when it comes to the actual implementation of it, be it in practice mode or against the COM/another player, all that knowledge seems to disappear from me. I do take breaks from the game, usually to play the games I've been negecting, but when I come back to BB, I forget how to do things again and have to begin from scratch.

[TD]

lf you want to improve your hitconfirming, just go to training mode, set the dummy to random block, and see if you can do an optimal combo off a random hit. l like to try mixups in this way, so that the moment the foe is hit in a real match, l can instictively do the most optimal combo from there.

and this isnt easy business either, even in training. you have to focus on the blockstring at hand in terms of execution, react to whether or not your foe has been hit or not, and know your options should you get that hit/your foe blocks it. but it's definitely a wonderful skill to have, and will always come in handy especially for a rtsd character such as makoto.

[cookiehours]

I'm with AXIS. Take a break from the game from time to time. One time I did that and did really well when I came back.

[YukiBlue]

I'm in the same boat as the OP, And Info from A.X.I.S and Tempest Dahlia seems Legit.

Off to try that in training mode, Sounds worthwhile.

[MAdBater]

Inexperience and execution sound like your biggest problems. Work on execution first then experience will follow. One thing if you are using a controller and you are unwilling to use a fight stick put the controller in your lap. Use the d pad or analog like normal (personally i prefer d pad over analog even on the xbox worst d pad ever) but use the face buttons not with your thumb but with your fingers. You will be taping the buttons with 3 or 4 of your finger and you may become more conscience of you button mashing and reduce that. When i switched to the arcade stick you can hear the mashing more because when you do bbb 2aaa 236cccc you can hear it. Also if you are mashing combos probably mean you are unsure of your timing for the moves. With practice and discipline you can reduce the mashing.

Also if you are falling for the same thing it is probably is that you are doing something punishable and not blocking. Figure out your moves that are punishable if you take some time thinking about it. Frame data will help but when playing or training just take notice of move with a long stall or which ones do not cancel in to the other one. Like with Hakumen you can do a 5a into 5b but not 5b into 5c. Blocking just practice and experience. If you see someone do this one thing and it is a cross up just learn to block it.

When you practice combos learn their timing and everything but do not look to do that combo. Learn that if you can start that combo with something like 5c then go into the combo which is what they mean by hit confirming. Zoning and footsies are more important to learn at the beginning. Do the challenge mode combos because you can see the combo, learn your character's timings and some of them are bnbs.

Remember Training mode is the most important part of any fighting game.

Edited May 28, 2011 by MAdBater

[Luminos564]

I'm with AXIS. Take a break from the game from time to time. One time I did that and did really well when I came back.

Duly noted. I haven't played the game for the last 2 days due to Challenge Mode frustrating me and my own inability to do them. But I figured I can't sit around doing nothing and since I cannot seem to make progress on my own, I needed to ask for help from others.

Now, to avoid making a giant wall-o'-text, I won't be quoting Tempest Dahlia or MAdBater.

@Tempest Dahlia: Shows just how much of a scrub I am since I never set Training mode dummies to block on random. I'll admit that I didn't even know what hit-confirming is until I looked up the term myself and MAdBater explained it. Sad thing is that I know Training mode is invaluable but all I ever used it for is learning to D-counter the various characters on Hell difficulty with Haku-men. Got none to blame other than myself for that.

@MAdBater: Oh I am more than willing to use a stick. I wouldn't have bought one if I wasn't making plans to use it. But the month I spent practicing it, all it amounted to was me getting used to the Type-B button layout. Still can't dash when I want to and do 623 motions consistently, while the rest of the motions I sometimes do either too fast resulting in the character jumping or miss some so the move fails outright.

But you're right on the money with the "inexperience" and "execution" as my problems. I can do some simple stuff like Ragna's 5B>5C>214A>214D, but if you asked me to add 6A after the 5C and do his JC>JD>Air214C variants, I'd freeze even though the combo looks so simple in theory. In addition, when using the stick, my right hand is very "slow". What I mean by that is that it takes a lot longer for my brain to send the signal to press the button as opposed to the controller. Guess I'll need to up the hours when I come back to Training mode.

You mentioned practicing timing for the combos. Now I know Challenge mode has some BnBs for the characters but the timing for combos has been one of the things I never learned. How would you suggest I prepare myself for that? Should I try to conquer Challenge mode's strict timing or is there a way to do it more gradually?

[A.X.I.S.]

On stick you want to use your wrist to move around, you want to make the most movement with the most minimal effort.

I had troubles with dashing too but someone told me to use my wrist and now I get it about 90% of the time.

If you have a problem with doing combos always break down each part of the combo.

For example if you were trying to the a air combo, practice the basic variation of it, grind it out until its in your muscle memory, then add in a different starter and try it from there, you won't be used to it at first but after you do it the first time you can do it again, you grind it out from there.

I had problems like you and when I try a new character I get those too.

And the timing for combos are not hard to learn, do the combo as slow as you can, if you realize you need a specific timing then you speed up gradually until you get it down.

Then you practice from there.

[Luminos564]

On stick you want to use your wrist to move around, you want to make the most movement with the most minimal effort.

I had troubles with dashing too but someone told me to use my wrist and now I get it about 90% of the time.

I don't want to sound like I'm insulting your intelligence, but how would you use the wrist to make the motions? Perhaps I've been using it but I cannot be certain since this is the 1st time I ever attempted to use a stick (afraid I never spent my childhood near the arcades). As for the dashes themselves, the only time I've gotten them down when I wanted was then I held the 2nd input of either 44/66 for a brief second. But that kills my timing (what little I have).

If you have a problem with doing combos always break down each part of the combo.

For example if you were trying to the a air combo, practice the basic variation of it, grind it out until its in your muscle memory, then add in a different starter and try it from there, you won't be used to it at first but after you do it the first time you can do it again, you grind it out from there.

I had problems like you and when I try a new character I get those too.

And the timing for combos are not hard to learn, do the combo as slow as you can, if you realize you need a specific timing then you speed up gradually until you get it down.

Then you practice from there.

I see. I was always looking at the combos as a whole rather than in parts. Would explain why I never got past the 1st 4~5 commands of the sequence before I started mucking things up like usual. And once again, I'm the fool that didn't use Training mode and instead just jumped into the fray of online play and Challenge mode.

Quick question though: would you recommend I focus on the characters I want to use regularly (in this case Makoto, Mu-12 and maybe Lambda-11) and generally have fun with, or should I pick a character like Ragna who was designed to bring new players in and get them used to the system, in order to get the timing and execution down?

[Blade]

As someone who plays with multiple characters, I'm not what you'd call the type to "drop" a character. Autopiloting can happen to anyone, the first thing you need to be aware of is not so much what you are doing as what the opponent is doing. If you do the same combo over and over throughout the match, and consistently land it on the opponent, that's not necessarily autopilot..the "means" and "method" of how you landed that combo is what's important, even if scrubs complain. You also want to broaden your mental "options" of what your character can do to trick an opponent, if you have only three methods, it's only a matter of time until someone catches on and punishes you, what's more don't lock yourself into practiced strategies alone, be aware of the situation at all times, life bar, guard primers, heat bar, burst, your opponent's state, everything.

When adapting from CS1 to CS2 with Ragna, I learned that a lot of moves I used to use as point of entry for combos needed to stop being used, either due to unfavorable situations post-combo, or I was getting countered a lot for using a certain normal. No matter how much auto-piloting you think you're doing, your body is still capable of learning through trial and error. Make enough mistakes and you'll definitely ingrane what to do and what not to do.

First learn what normals will work the most, then things like high-damage combos come later, when your body is more accustomed to the repitition and strategies and adapting to what an opponent aims to do. I'm actually picking up Tsubaki for the first time, because of this, even though I barely touched her in CS1. Many of her combos are repititious, but her methods to those combos vary from situation to situation, either due to jumping height, spacing, enemy size, or other factors. After playing Tsubaki for a couple hours and getting maybe THREE combos down...I got tired, you know why? Because in a lot of situations she is always "doing" something, be it charging, moving, spamming 5B, or other stuff...she's a very "active" character to play with, and isn't a character you can autopilot with very easily.

She isn't the only "active" character...Carl is another character that requires lots of thinking about the situation, where he is, and where he needs to be for certain combos. Active characters can tire anyone out, hence the desire to autopilot with simpler characters...that's why you need to rest now and then.

Haku-men is not a very "active" character so much as he is a "reacting" character. He will do more things based on what the opponent does, rather than what he himself can do. Baiting DPs, pressuring, high low mixups, tick-throws, Ds...people think he's someone you can autopilot because of the raw power behind his combos...but really you have to be more aware of what his answers to an opponent's movements could be. Charged 6C, TK Tsubaki from a jump-cancelled normal, 6B(1)>D overhead as a guard primer tool/D move, j.B as a crossup tool, using 6D between opponent guard string openings...using 3C once on counterhit and taking the opportunty to IAD when the opponent is down to reposition yourself...and other things...

Edited May 28, 2011 by Blade

[Luminos564]

Well, when I said "autopiloting", I meant it in a bad way for me. When I was using Haku-men in CS1, I was very fond of using 3C>3C. It worked miraculously well against certain people. I was also constantly using JC to send the opponents flying back, but I'd never chase them down or capitalize on their mistakes. And that was the extent of my attack plan:

-Are they standing on the ground? 3C.

-Are they dashing in the air? JC.

-Are they attacking me on the ground from far away? 4C or 5D.

That was (and still is) all I knew how to do. And since I never bothered to use other characters while playing either CT or CS1, my mind and tactics have been stuck in Haku-men mode without being able to switch it off. Sure, I can win this way and I do throw out his specials once in a while, but generally the above 3 things are all I can do. Its gotten to the point where this is nearly barring me from learning other fun characters.

Trust me, I wouldn't make the decision to drop my long-time favorite character without a good reason. And I am a firm believer that just knowing how to do combos do not make you a good player. There is much more to it than that. But if using Haku-men this way has caused me to be stuck in this sort of rut, then I need to make changes and the 1st step is to start over from scratch.

Edited May 28, 2011 by Luminos564

[Blade]

I'm not gonna say dropping Haku-men is a good or bad idea, but I will say that you have to think more in terms of offense and defense with every character. That is to say, Ragna is offense oriented, Lambda is offense oriented at certain ranges, Bang has an offense/defense thing going on, Tsubaki has lots of offense options but requires defensive charging to be effective, Carl is offensive while using Ada as a Shield, Arakune is evasive and attacks indirectly, Tager is all about defense and counter-throws and resets...the list goes on.

You basically have to start thinking that every character is different and applying that to your style, and file away that individual character's style that you've developed, and only bring those techniques out when USING that character. For example, I can play Ragna, and I can play Tager...with Ragna I'm a pressure machine, but with Tager I relax and let the opponent's mistakes happen to themselves while playing with their guard and finding 720 opportunities. I won't say they are polar opposites, as similar things could be said of other characters to Ragna.

Just think in terms of what can you do with the character you chose that you can't do with Haku and go from there and treat them as separate.

[Luminos564]

You basically have to start thinking that every character is different and applying that to your style, and file away that individual character's style that you've developed, and only bring those techniques out when USING that character. For example, I can play Ragna, and I can play Tager...with Ragna I'm a pressure machine, but with Tager I relax and let the opponent's mistakes happen to themselves while playing with their guard and finding 720 opportunities. I won't say they are polar opposites, as similar things could be said of other characters to Ragna.

Just think in terms of what can you do with the character you chose that you can't do with Haku and go from there and treat them as separate.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm gonna have to do. However, that will take time. I've spent some 1000 matches with Haku-men (playing as badly as I described earlier in every single one of them) so the only solution is to play the other characters enough that those habits disappear. But I should be careful shouldn't I? Eliminating bad habits is the desired outcome but its possible that instead of eliminating bad habits, I instead replace them with new ones. So perhaps you could tell me, what sort of "good" habits do I need to develop and how? I'm more than willing to practice for hours on end with the stick I bought, with the characters I've chosen but it would be fruitless if I'm not practicing the right way. I don't mean practicing character playstyles (that should ultimately fall on my preference and skill) but just general approaches to matches, regardless of the character in question.

**BTW, this is a bit off topic but that's a damn good avatar Blade. Its like if Haku-men merged with Bahamut (FFXIII).**

Edited May 28, 2011 by Luminos564

[Blade]

Well, you develop habits from game to game, so they change over time...for example, I can barely play CS1 Ragna anymore due to how many ways he changed.

There is such a thing as Universal Habits, one of them is simply training more and habitually (that is to say, do some warmup combos in training before jumping online, loosens you up). If you play the A.I. cranked up it can teach you a few things about the holes in your offense and how strong or weak your defense might be...but these aren't the best conditions, especially considering the A.I. can pick apart any Haku-men's D moves and cause you to anticipate things in live matches that may never happen with real people.

If you can find a friend that's better than you who is more than willing to kick your ass constantly, but patiently show you what you did wrong, that is best. Also it wouldn't hurt to have a good rotation of friends, since playing one person for too long teaches you about their own habits and you get too acclimated to them enough to adapt to another player's style...as no matter what you may think, no two Ragnas fight alike (even if they are similar in some ways). You need to stay loose about how you learn to play, don't lock yourself into one style, don't think there's only one way of playing the character you chose, and do lots and lots of experimentation. Watch combo vids, save replays, download replays from the leaderboard ranking, etc etc.

There's some core habits to get started with...

[Luminos564]

@Blade: I see. The unfortunate thing is that I do not have that many friends (online or offline) that I am able to do that with. But I know of 2 that I see on a semi-regular basis so I think I can ask them if the need arises.

However, the rest of the points you mentioned, I can certainly do. I already watch a lot of replays and other videos of better players than myself so that's no problem. I suppose the 1st thing I'm gonna have to do when I get the chance is go to training and pick 1 combo (a simple one, nothing too fancy) and practice it until its part of my muscle memory. Then see if I can land it consistently against the A.I and then later apply it against someone online if possible. Rinse and repet until it feels natural then for the characters I have in mind.

[MAdBater]

Do that stuff that Blade recommended.

One thing you can do also is just drop the subs and concentrate on your main. You trying to learn fundamentals and timing; not being a expert in a day. Learn to play Makoto, Hakumen or whowever against everyone. Makoto supposedly is high tier and Hakumen is 4.5 to 5.5 match ups with everyone so that mean you do not really have a advantage and it is your play style and skill that will make the difference. Grinding in training mode with 3 or 4 character is not good for a beginner or someone trying to learn basics. Also how you played with Hakumen is fine when zoning and turtling for meter but you just do not want to be predictable. You also just need to learn to press the advantage from what you were saying.

[Luminos564]

I agree MAdBater. I wasn't considering practicing multiple characters at a time. Learning to main Makoto and adjusting that knowledge to a stick is going to be plenty for now. No reason to overload myself with work that will never get finished and only leave me frustrated beyond belief. At least now I got something of a goal to work on whereas before I wasn't sure what to do.

[Blade]

You seem to be from Canada, and depending on how far from Wisconsin you are, I might be able to play you sometime.

[Luminos564]

You seem to be from Canada, and depending on how far from Wisconsin you are, I might be able to play you sometime.

That would be nice. Though I only have a wireless connection and most of the time, I get 0-bars. But if you're fine with that I'd be more than happy to play against you .

[Konflyk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsME37GrqjY

I checked this out once, when I was planning on getting a stick and after I got one, might also help explain the wrist motion thing if you didn't get that yet, also shows numerous ways to hold your stick, just use a comfortable grip.

on a side note F the wineglass

[Luminos564]

Ok, its been a while and I thought to share some of my experiences after buckling down and seriously trying to learn how to play using an arcade stick, as well as my (planned) main and sub. I took the advice of the people here and after a few days of working hard at it, I took a break by playing some other games for a week and a half. Got back into it today and this is what I found so far for myself.

Stick in general:

-Blocking and Barrier Blocks have become easier. I can now block people's attack strings much more precisely, sometimes even better than when I used the D-pad.

-Dashing is still inconsistent, but its better than before when I couldn't even chase down someone constantly backing away.

-DPs (623) still needs a lot of work. I either cannot activate them when I'm under pressure or they come out when I do not want them too. I must need to get confortble with the motion still.

-Throws and escaping them has become better, but not consistent. Still better than on D-pad though.

-Cancels (Jump, Dash and Rapid) all need improvement.

Makoto:

-Had the longest trouble with executing her 214A motion of all things. It was weird since I could do 214B no problem. Even weirder, against an opponent, 214A isn't a problem but if I practice it by itself, I usually just get a 5A.

-Still cannot do her basic tricks, but 5B>5CC>6B>5D isn't an issue. Better to know one than none I guess.

-Execution needs a lot of work, but that will come with experience I hope.

-One weird thing that I noticed, is that as soon as I begin to land combos with her, my adrenaline kicks in and I really get into the match. A person who was owning me just rounds prior, is now making mistakes and I'm punishing it, forcing them to step it up lest I start crushing them. I guess momentum is what's helping me in this circumstance. Now I need to learn to do that all the time, not just after losing 7 straight times in a row.

Mu-12:

-Oddly, Mu-12 feels "natural" for me to use with a stick than on D-pad. Its just...I dunno "comfortable" and somehow "makes sense" if that means anything to anyone.

-Her DP still needs work, but that's a given since the statement above.

-I'm finding I can use her basic 5C>2C>6C much better now and my pressure has improved, tough its still hardly threatening.

-However, I seem to be constantly throwing out 6C when I was looking for 3C. Its costing me a lot of health.

-I keep auto-piloting her drive, positioning the turrets just about anywhere. I need to learn to stop that and soon.

All in all, its not a hell of a lot of improvement but its getting there, if only by an inch. Just gotta practice even more.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Luminos564

[M4g1c4lM4g1]

As far as stick stuff, just keep at it in training mode, you'll get it down.

[Luminos564]

As far as stick stuff, just keep at it in training mode, you'll get it down.

Quite. Prior to the week and a half break, I was practicing every day for about 2 hours. Movement, DPs and at least 1 standard BnB. Perhaps I'll make sure to shorten the breaks in between practice to make it stick quicker.

[Blade]

My experiences with arcade cabinet sticks have been short and sweet, but my advice is to learn at least TWO methods of gripping your stick, that way your arm doesn't go numb or you twist your wrist during extended play.

I switch from overhead grip to wine glass grip whenever I feel like my wrist is starting to hurt.

It didn't take me long to get the fundamentals of 214 and 236 inputs, it's the DPs that were hard.