[CS2] Jin vs Tager

[Yuushiro]

Going to update these as I have time to gather information from people’s and my own experience and translate what the Japanese are saying in the wiki or BBS

For now you guys can discuss the matchup here.

Basic/Matchup overview:

long-distance:

mid range:

short range:

Best tools:

Best way to pressure:

Their strategy vs us:

Best overall strategy:

[Chris Chaos]

Basic/Matchup overview:

6-4 In Jin's Favor. Not to bad to deal with but can turn for the worst quickly.

This match-up has basically gone back to the CT days, but not as easy since Tager has gotten a few extra gimmicks so if you don't keep your eyes open you will be hurt. You as a Jin player have a lot of tools that will give you the advantage in this fight, you have to use them and not be predictable since Tager is a defensive character, he love predictable and can get 3-5k easy because of it. From my experience from fighting Tager, these are you best options.

Long Range:

Ice Blades: Not really a good option but it's an option. You can use this to see how Tager is going to react, and it can also help your approach if you use them to make the Tager do something you can take advantage of.

Mid Range:

2D: This is probably your only best long range tool, the issue is that it can be sledged through so your uses of 2D are limited. If you do hit Tager with this it can open up for your midrange combos and force Tager on the defensive and puts you in a place to pressure tager with close range attacks where (Crazy Enough) Tager doesn't want you.

A/B/D.dp's: Tager is a huge character and can get hit with a/b dp's from a nice distance, but the issue here is that EVERYONE in the game can evade a DP with ducking so you want to use these sparingly unless Tager jumps in.

j.(A/B/D) Ice blades: These are good to use especially since Jin has the ability to air dash cancel after throwing ice blades if he's high enough. A good air approach if you ask me, And be wary of yomi Collider, if he attempts to IB the A/B Ice Blade expect an Atomic Collider to follow so to stop this you can stuff it with D. Ice Blades since you can cancel Ice Blades into more Ice Blades. It's a good trick to use, if you have no idea how it's used, look up ShadowRedZero, he's a Jin notorious for using this.

5C: A good poke to keep Tager at bay unless you are magnetized. Tager's range is not as good as Jin's so use this and if you CH your 5C, guess what? Mid-Screen Combo! Follow it up with 6C and perform your optimal combo or a combo you're comfortable with and it puts you in range to do more damage.

Short Range:

2A: We know how abusive this move can be and it helps REALLY well here, especially if you're pressuring Tager. You could even use this as an AA but it's not well advised since you could trade with Tager and it puts you in a tight situation.

5A: Also another great tool used to pressure Tager. It helps to use this a bit when you have Tager locked down, Most Tager players try to see how often you jump out so he can collider combo you when you attempt to jump out but if you're not jumping out he may say forget it and go with his other option

5B: Another great tool that can lead to a lot of good things for you. Use this when you can on Tager so you can continue the pressure on him to open up for decent combos to crack Tager under pressure.

6A: An outstanding tool on confirmed hit, in a corner, it can lead to 3K if you follow it up with 6C. It's an overhead sparingly used because it's negative on block but it's an overhead and it has it's uses, use it to pressure Tager and make sure you have 50 Heat to RC so you can combo off of it.

6B: A great tool for mix up, it can beat his 360/720 attempts and open up the opponent for a nice healthy combo but remember you can be hit out of this with a 2A/5A attempt so pick your time to use this.

Best Tools:

As a Jin player you have a lot of tools and tricks to use on the Red Devil, such as:

IAD Ice Blades: This can expose a Tager if they get gimmicked and open up for a nice combo to follow up but the sad thing is that if they see it and they hold back they will block it because this will NEVER cross up...

3C>D Ice Blades: Another good trick here, It allows us to perform a safe mix up with the cost of 25 heat. We can follow up with a few options for this mix up is with:

Empty jump 2B,

Empty jump grab,

Jump air dash > air stuff

IAD Ice Blades.

These are a few of the options We have off of this set up and it forces Tager to block but be careful he does have a GDLK backdash so if he sees it coming you got to be careful but in a corner... Have Fun Tager

6D>D Ice Blades: The 6D resets Tager when he's airborne and forces him to fall into the D ice blades, if he doesn't block correctly, he's gonna be free to whatever you do to him after this, hit him with an optimal combo or something you won't drop.

Run in > 6B: This one is made to mess with Tager's reaction, when someone runs up to you they throw you right? We have that option but we also have 6B. It will bait Tager whiff a throw (BC/360/720) and open him up for 4k+.

Best way to pressure:

All of Jin's Close range atacks:

2A

5A

5B {All of the reasons are Stated Earlier in this Post}

6A

6B

Use these in the best way possible to keep Tager guessing so when he is open for an overhead or tries to 360 you, you can hit him with your overhead or 6B.

You also have 2D and 5C (Also earlier explained in the post) to add on to Mid-Range pressure as well and open up for those combos to hurt Tager.

Their strategy vs us:

Close/Mid Range:

5A: This is a good tool to make us believe the ground is not the way to go.

Baiting our DP's: They will do this with Back Dash or Ducking. Good news is that they can't Punish 5D (Unless they yomi sledge) or D.dp (Unless Magnetized)

2A/2C obvious jumps: This is the monster, not so much 2a but 2C is that FATAL!!! I have been hit with this many times and man, I can tell you, if you get hit with this i can lead to a good 4-5K and if you're already down on health, "That's All She Wrote..." BE ESPECIALLY CAREFUL when you try to approach Tager because 2A will stuff your air approach and 2C will stuff some of your cross-up attempts.

Tager wants to avoid the corner, Things get REALLY bad for Tager if he does, and the match-up is much easier for us when Tager is cornered.

2B>gadget works on Jin, be wary of this because it's a special tool they like to use against us.

360A goes through A, B, and D DP's but they have to know the timing but it can hurt us if we don't look out for it.

Gadget Finger puts Tager in the advantage in this fight. Our few options are 2 Dp's, They are going to try and bait C.dp with 5A so be carefulthat you see that coming and use A. DP if that is the case, make Tager pay for trying to mind-game you into doing what he wants.

Long Range:

They will Volt Charge and IB Ice Blades. They are going to react to how we approach so make sure you're prepared for whatever approach you have against him knowing his options.

SPARK BOLT: Holy Crap this move, it will make you hurt, they will do this the second you make a mistake and make you eat big damage off of it.

Tager will look for 2D so you want to use it sparingly because he can sledge through it and we can get hit for it.

Tager will be wary of jumping in because of our AA options are among the best in the game, Tager will try to keep things neutral so remember that and do what you can if he does jump in.

Best Overall Strategy:

You want to get close as crazy as that sounds. Tager is a HUGE hitbox so we have the ability to do a lot to him in close range. You want to try to get as much as you can off of him when you freeze him because he has a LOT of health and it will take a few good combos to end the round. Spark bolt is a deadly tool he has that can punish you full screen for throwing out something you shouldn't have and if you don't have the health and you're full screen:

Bursting is your best option (If you have it).

Your life has been sparred for the moment because Tager can't punish if you burst full screen off of Spark Bolt connecting if your grounded. On the other hand, if you're airborne and Tager holds Atomic Collider, he can punish you so make sure you make your choice carefully and quickly but in the end; bursting full screen is in your favor. If you're close and he hits you don't burst immediately, he can volt charge your burst and hit you with a 720 and the salt level will rise to critical.

Even though Close range is where you want it, Tager can always Wake-up 360/720 and ruin your day, be very wary of that option when your close to him and watch for IB's, if the Tager knows what he's doing and reads your pressure game if you're not mixing it up, he will seize the opportunity to IB >(360/720) you.

When trying to cross up Tager you must be wary if he's crouching because all he has to do is hit the C button and you have been Fatal'd... I'm sure I'm not the only one who's seen the damage left behind a Tager fatal but it hurts. You need to make sure when your going to cross up Tager he is already standing up and blocking your pressure string if you want to safely do an IAD Ice Blades.

I hope this helps you guys out as much as it helped me and if you guys have some things to add, it would be appreciated.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Shinsyn

[Moy_X7]

3C > 236D works on Tager? That's news to me.

Also, I would advise people against using 6A too much in this match because being at frame disadvantage against Tager is not the place to be. Think of yourself as getting Gadget Fingered after your 6A gets blocked. You'll be in the position where you have to play rock-paper-scissors with a jump to avoid a Buster, stay grounded and block to avoid a Collider, or DP to beat both but still be in risk of getting baited.

By the way, if you get an anti-air hit mid-screen, try to go for 5B AUB resets after a high j.D and 5D > 236D resets near the corner. Those AA combos would look like...

Mid-screen: 5A/2A/5B AA > 5C > 6C > DC > j.B > j.2C > JC > j.2C > j.D > (dashing) 5B AUB reset. (j.B instead of j.C in case that you accidently cross yourself after a 6C > DC)

Corner: 5A/2A/5B AA > 5C > DP B > (dashing)6C > DP C > 5A > 5C > 5D > 236D reset.

Your opponent will eventually find out that he's eating AUB resets with 5B and will begin to barrier guard, so now what you wanna do is deplete his barrier by mashing 5A > j.A. Instead of doing that (dashing) 5B AUB, you now go for 5A x n > JC > j.A x n > j.B > (dashing) 5A x n > repeat until you both hit the ground at which point you'll want to go for a quick mix-up and back the fuck off. If during this block string you see that he lets go off his barrier while you're grounded, then AUB his ass with 5B/5C. If you deplete his barrier completely then you're at a huge advantage as he is unable to block AUBs and will now eat 50% more damage. It's the same deal with a blocked 236D after a 5D or if he's going for those super jumps > barrier to approach. This should work against every character but it works specially well on Tager because of his huge hit-box.

We need to make use of this block-string now while we still have the chance. They're making it so that it's impossible to do this block string by increasing the guard knockback while the opponent is airborne, by limiting the 5A > itself gatling to 3 reps, and by making barrier guarding push you back even more.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Moy_X7

[Chris Chaos]

3C > 236D does works on Tager, his only option is to back step but if he's in a corner, he has to block. I've done this many times on AXIS and he claims backstep is all he can do midscreen and that's all I've seen him do.

I did say use 6a sparingly because it's negative on block I did make notes of that in my post. Which I also noted that you should have 50 heat before attempting this in case it is blocked, RC does give you the option to continue pressure if it is blocked and gives you better options to get out.

Come one Moi, give me more credit than that... LOL! I do like your additions to the thread, it was needed, the options you put are definitely going to be put to good use by me for now on.

[Moy_X7]

lol, I wasn't trying to put you down or anything. In fact, the post I made wasn't even related to yours apart from me questioning that 3C > 236D on Tager lol.

[vanfleihight]

Actually, you CAN be punished from a full screen spark bolt burst if the Tager player is looking for it.

When you burst a spark bolt, you're in the air and can get dragged in by a whiffed atomic collider and it will behave like the gadget finger rapid cancel trick. You can't do anything while flying down so you just get hit by a free 360 or 720 as if you had been baited by voltic charge. This works at any place on the screen by either whiffing them into the corner or whiffing it so they land in front of Tager.

If you burst on contact with the spark bolt, you stay grounded. However, if you can react and burst to something like this correctly/quickly then you really shouldn't be getting hit in the first place.

It's still in your best interest to burst at full screen though since it is heavily in your favor. They have to guess whether or not you'll burst and forgo combo damage, pull off the awkward punish correctly, and waste a spark bolt in the process if they end up guessing wrong.

[Chris Chaos]

Van, you're right. After hitting up Training mode, you can be punished if the Tager Atomic Collider's and holds it against your burst if you're in the air, but not on whiff, a whiffed AC does not have the pulling power to bring you to Tager. If you're grounded, you're fine, even a fully held Atomic Collider won't move you.

It's as you said; no one should be getting hit with a full screen Spark Bolt anyway, I noted it in the case that it does happen (I've seen it happen before), and when a Tager hits a Jin player with spark bolt, it's uncommon for them to perform a fully held Atomic Collider to your burst if you're in the air, they tend to use Spark Bolt with the intention of pulling off optimal combos most of the time it doesn't start with Atomic Collider but it can happen.

I appreciate the addition to the thread and I'll make the changes to my post, Thank You for the correction.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Shinsyn

[Solex]

3C > 236D does works on Tager, his only option is to back step midscreen

are you sure about that tager should be able 720 you out of it regardless if he is midscreen or corner the only reason he shouldn't is that you would be just out of his 720 grasp after the 3c pushback but 236d extends your hitbox so i imagine he will get you 90% of the time 100% if magnitized

bout the atomic collider burst thingy i havnt tested it but i have seen akira do exactly what van is talking about, pulling in an airborne opponent who just bursted and having them land right next to him and he 360b them it was so clean lol

my favorite tool against tager is j.c since he is so big itl make him block or hit him outa the air, and if you ever get a counter hit with it you get a free combo, while still giving you insane freedom, its great for long range neutral

[Xx_Hoshi_xX]

I would definitely play a defensive game in this match up. Not that you couldn't play aggressive, but what this does is put you at a greater chance for getting 360'd?720'd/getting caught in gimmicks. I wouldn't even advice pressuring a good tager for too long. I've been 720'd out of a 5a, 5b block string. If you see him IBing I would jump back just to be safe. ice swords will help open him up, but use them cautiously as shin said. This will allow you you to bait his sledge and you can run up and do a 5c to hit him out of it. This also applies for your 2d. I have found jc to be a very good tool. a neutral jump jc keeps him from doing 5c and sledge. However, he may try to either one, use 2d to hit underneath your jc or two, bait it with spark bolt. If you see he has a spark bolt watch for it. In the case that he tries to use 2d, you can jump again and come down with a jb. If you're magnetized I would cut back on the jc usage, as a perfectly time collider will pull you in. Take advantage of him being slow, don't be ashamed of laming the fight out. If you have the life lead, stay back and keep zoning him. He will eventually get desperate and make a mistake. A few options I use for his sj are one, run right under him. This puts him right where he started. two, 623a. three, jc to push him back. Sometimes, I don't even go for the conventional 214c combo ender. I just use 623b to knock him back to where he was, I use this option if I have significant life lead over him.

[Yuushiro]

I like to let tager tech in the air....sometimes

he has no option except to fall down, coz he can't airdash or doublejump.

[Moy_X7]

I like to let tager tech in the air....sometimes

he has no option except to fall down, coz he can't airdash or doublejump.

This, you want Tager to be in the air at all times if possible as he doesn't have access to his Busters, Collider, 2C mash, and Sledge. I usually end my combos with a 3C > DP B mid-screen. If he techs as soon as possible, then you can catch him with 2D to force him to block as soon as he techs in the air or meet him in the air with j.B > j.Axn. In the corner, you want to reset him with 5A > 5C > 5D > 236D > j.Axn > j.B > 5Axn > mix-up. If you've frozen him before 5D then instead of doing a second DP C, do 5A > 5C > DP B > delayed DP A and get ready to rape him in the air. Aerial oki ftw lol.

I also wonder why I have never seen the Japanese go for a 5B > j.2C instant overhead on Tager. Are they not aware that they have that option or are they too scared to use it?

Edited November 7, 2011 by Moy_X7

[Chris Chaos]

Trying to meet Tager in the air with J.b can get you blown up by Tager's j.b, it could trade or beat you out. If you are throwing this out, you want to be really careful. Also, most smart Tager's will be blocking in the air, your best bet is to dp tager when he can, and keep control of the neutral game.

[Moy_X7]

Also, most smart Tager's will be blocking in the air, your best bet is to dp tager when he can, and keep control of the neutral game.

You want them to block though, all the way down until you can use your AUBs. Yup, you can get blown up by his j.B and j.C if you're not careful. Gotta condition him to block by throwing some DP As out there from time to time.