LastStarSaviour Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 This conversation has gotten so big that I can't even input anything @_@. Guess i'll just be here to answer questions, if you guys have any on Noel just let me know. That's about all me and this 2 page character write-up are good for right now.
Seiki Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 I'm sorry if I wasn't clear Astaroth i didn't mean to say that tager has good options I just meant to say tager's and bang's yomi game is pretty different to compare.
Seiki Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 This conversation has gotten so big that I can't even input anything @_@. Guess i'll just be here to answer questions, if you guys have any on Noel just let me know. That's about all me and this 2 page character write-up are good for right now. Star in CS2 is Noel's drives changed in terms of speed?
Jackie Chandler Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Holy shit. The one day I don't get on Dustloop, this thread expands by more than two pages. Poor Naimat getting ganged up on. Still, the funny thing about this whole conversation is that it started with "I realized why Japan put him with Tager on the tier list. on wakeup he has no reversals except," as if you see Japanese players throwing out wakeup DPs all day. Bang doesn't NEED an Inferno Divider. What he lacks in defense he makes up for in speed and offense. I see and hear you complaining a lot about how Bang's normals are a lot slower than everyone else's, but take a look at the frame data- we're talking a matter of one or two frames. That's completely handleable. Besides, like Eshi said, just because Bang's defense options have counters doesn't mean they're unusable. Shit, every time I use Inferno Divider it's a HUGE risk of leaving myself open for a free combo, including Fatal combos. You just have to assess your situations and decide whether or not the benefits would outweigh the penalties of using things like guardpoints or Distortions. I'm not trying to be critical, nor am I trying to jump on you while everyone else is- those are just my two cents.
Seiki Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Reversals aren't just dps. Moves that are very fast or have a lot of active frames can be a reversal depending on the situation. I am not arguing that bang needs a dp or that he lacks in the defense area just because of a dp, I already explained and wont do it again. One or two frames makes a huge difference. In SSFIV AE yun's ex lung punch is +1 on block you know what that means? his jab will beat your jab clean so you are forced to be on the defense unless you do a dp. One frame is what makes amaterasu normals so good. She has one frame less start up on most of her normals than the rest of the cast like her standing H or her crouching jab which is 3 frames while the rest of the cast is 4-7 frames. Balrog's jab is 1 frame faster than any of the other chars in SF and is partly why he is consistently top tier in each SFIV iteration from vanilla to arcade edition. In a game where slow moves are considered to be a third of a second yeah 1 to 2 frames means a lot. Say a move is fairly slow say 22 frames and you increase the number of startup frames by 2 so 24. You just made the move 9% slower. They changed IB in this game from taking off 5 frames of blockstun to 3 frames when I IB now there are a significant number of things I cannot punish just because of a 2 frame difference. A lot of other players also notice this change when they try to IB>punish. For everyone, I'm done arguing.
C0R Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 I'm bored. Great of Wall of Text inc. Duck. Bang is still a threat...right? As Bang's CS2 metagame evolves I'm sure he will be very viable. He has changed drastically over the course of the patch, and it will take time to adjust and learn all the new things. You'll notice the "strongest" characters this time around are ones who remained relatively unchanged, and simply received damage/framedata upgrades. on wakeup he has no reversals except one that costs 50 heat which has no range Daifunka is also a reversal that should be considered along with Ashura, take that as you will. 6d can also work in a pinch. all of his normals are slower than the majority of the casts His normals also have superior hitboxes to compensate, along with decent frame advantage on block with the important ones, 5a +/- 0 and so forth. Literally on knockdown against makoto and several others like Jin, Ragna, Noel, Tao, etc. I am forced to eat a mixup Nothing on wakeup beats her options. I happen to play a character that imposes this situation on everyone, they have to defend against everything correctly, or they die. This applies to every character in the game, even ones with the highest number of defensive option in the game, such as Hakumen, yet my character is considered low/mid tier on the Arcadia lists. Because it's still dependent on my skill on offense to crack my opponent's skill on defense. If you feel helpless, it's not a matter of character balance, but rather skill imbalance. I am also finding I can punish a lot more things with other chars normals (ex. Jin) when I IB compared to Bang where his normals are a tad bit too slow to punish most offensive pressure. This statement makes no sense whatsoever, Jin's fastest attack is 5a/Fubuki:A at 6f, whereas Bang also has a 6f 5a. If a 6f jab can't punish something on IB, then it's usually not supposed to be punishable on block. You say blocking and breaking grabs like someone would say "hey just don't get hit" it is more difficult than you put it If perfect defense was simple and easy, the game would be fundamentally broken. I'm not sure what game you've been playing, but BB wisely considered to be a game with a very powerful block mechanic, throws are even reactively techable, something that is very rare. I know you as a player struggle to block and break grabs and those overheads? Struggle, no. Fail at times, yes. I am saying that he lacks a lot of options on wakeup/on block that the majority of the other chars have and that is partly why he is low tier. Rachel doesn't need better than average defensive options to be high tier, because that can be made up for with good blocking. And actually Bang's defensive options are pretty sub par compared to most of the cast. Yet they're far from the worst, consider characters like Arakune or Lambda, who have no character specific options whatsoever to get out of pressure. Bang's drive is still useful to that end. His 2D is his best overall guard point but it is susceptible to lows and they nerfed the active frames on the guard point so I find myself getting counter hit when trying to Anti air with it or when i use it to IB>2D the opponent's pressure. This is far from the optimal application of 2d. I would suggest using it in other places. You said it yourself, Bang doesn't have an antiair; therefore 2d isn't an antiair, therefore you shouldn't use 2d to antiair. It's jump cancelable on block, try doing fun things with it. Eshi what good defensive options are you talking about? And what is it then that makes him low tier? His extra air option is a very strong tool for escaping pressure and a very powerful defensive ability. tier whore it up and play Jin was it loud obnoxious and gay sounding? This behavior isn't one that exactly builds respect. Good blocking consists of a lot of guessing even if one is to argue finding patterns in the opponent. No. Good blocking consist of knowing your opponent's gatlings and cancel options, their throw range, the properties of their special attacks; and using that knowledge to expose the flaws in their approach, as well as weighing the risk reward of their mixup and reacting appropriately. Some characters have options on defense/wakeup, "good blocking" doesn't compensate for those options. Every character has block. Block is the strongest defensive option. Bang has the strongest defensive option at his disposal. Good blocking compensates for pretty much everything you could ever want it to. People think Hazama is really annoying because he can tag you once and then run away for 98 seconds without taking damage. Truth is every character can do it with blocking, it's just not as easy. I am not arguing that bang needs a dp or that he lacks in the defense area just because of a dp, I already explained and wont do it again. I realized why Japan put him with Tager on the tier list. on wakeup he has no reversals
Top_Cat Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Star in CS2 is Noel's drives changed in terms of speed? Other than 5d, they're nearly the same (they might be marginally faster)
Eshi Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Other than 5d, they're nearly the same (they might be marginally faster)5D actually has more start-up and less invincibility than in CS. 2D/6D/4D/Assault Through/Spring Raid are exactly the same. If you could deal with them when she was bad, then you can deal with them now that she's good too.
LastStarSaviour Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Hm, guess you guys beat me to that one. The two main moves that I see have changed that's been most noticeable to me are her 5D (kind of trashy now) and J.4D (God-like cross-up now). I have noticed something weird about her 2D now but i'm not quite sure what it is, the hitbox feels different or something idk.
Kyle Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Hey guys. Most likely attending thsi one. I play MVC3 & Vampire Savior now. Don't touch BBCS:2 sorry gang. So Hotel. who's in?
Astaroth136 Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 I actually like it when Seiki posts. He causes the post count to skyrocket. It really gets discussions going. lol Chandler, where's Grand Finals vid from the last tourney?
Milln Posted June 15, 2011 Author Posted June 15, 2011 Oh shiiiiii we got Kyle back! Sadness he's not into BlazBlue but awesome he plays mvc and vampire! Anyone know where tad is? He'd love some vampire saviour
Kyle Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Tad's with me. Anyone else talked about hotels? Do I just need to get 1...more than (1)... back to backs... anyone???
LastStarSaviour Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Hm, this is how things look for me so far : Saturday, i'll be there. BLEH!!!! Sunday: If one of you guys could find the tad bit of kindness in your hearts to house me and drag me along with you it would be much appreciated. Don't know if I said this already but i'll pay for gas and whatever else I need to cover. Let me know, again anything whatsoever is appreciated. Quick note : This entire message is subject to change depending on how my ride situation looks on Sunday. Just need to see if anyone is available
Jackie Chandler Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Chandler, where's Grand Finals vid from the last tourney? Sorry I don't have them up yet, I've had them edited for a while. Like I mentioned on Live a couple days ago, the few times I've tried it the ETA comes out to more than four hours for just the first part, so I try to get it done when I'm sleeping (and when nobody's using the internet, my mom her computer, etc.). Unfortunately, every time I've woken up to "the upload failed due to an unknown error" for both. I'll try uploading it again tonight, and if I get the error again, I'll break the videos into three parts instead of two so I have a better chance at getting them uploaded.
Milln Posted June 15, 2011 Author Posted June 15, 2011 Hm, this is how things look for me so far : Saturday, i'll be there. BLEH!!!! Sunday: If one of you guys could find the tad bit of ki--- *interrupts* You're with me. Come over. @Jackie: try using the Large File Upload tool on the right if you aren't already.
Jackie Chandler Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 @Jackie: try using the Large File Upload tool on the right if you aren't already. WHY WAS I NOT INFORMED. Yeah, I'll be using that tonight. Resumable uploads sounds awesome. Thanks for enlightening me. :D
Seiki Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 Tad's with me. Anyone else talked about hotels? Do I just need to get 1...more than (1)... back to backs... anyone??? I would definitely hang out at the hotel Kyle but I can't afford to help buy a room.
Klein Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 I might be able to afford helping out with a hotel room to sleep on the floor, but I'd need some advance warning so I can plan with my mom/plan to get home since I have no license or car.
Grimstar Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 I'm going Saturday and Sunday, if anyone happens to live in the boro I might can give you a ride. No promises >:|
Jackie Chandler Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 At this time of posting, the first part for the Grand Finals matches is ~75% done with 70 minutes remaining. I'm hoping this advanced file upload feature works (at least in regards to resuming uploads) because both videos are around 1 GB each instead of the >2 GB Youtube lists the feature for. In short, I hope I wake up to the rest of the videos along with the rest of you guys. For those who don't normally keep up/need a reminder/are too lazy to search/whatever, here's a link to the MTN Channel.
Kyle Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 I'll get (1). I wasn't inquiriing about money guys. =/ Tad, myself, diafuuka-Mat. Anyone else?
Jackie Chandler Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 I think I'm going to cry. I can't find any option to resume downloads, and the upload last night failed AGAIN. I may just have to see if I can upload them somewhere else and get somebody to download and upload them to Youtube for me. Last night was literally the fifth attempt, and I don't understand what could be going wrong. :/ I'll get (1). I wasn't inquiriing about money guys. =/ Tad, myself, diafuuka-Mat. Anyone else? If I can convince my parents, I'd like to put some money towards the hotel room and sleep on the floor if I'm welcome to. Milln's place seems more economical, but I'm sure he's going to have quite a few people at his place already. I'd imagine the hotel room wouldn't be far from the arcade, too, so it's theoretically more convenient and less driving = more sleep. I can't make any promises, though. PM me details, I suppose. Sorry I can't give a more concrete response. X/
Astaroth136 Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 Um, how long is the video? It can't be longer than 15 minutes, or it will throw an error.
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