huey253 Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 It is really cool and helps so much with some other combos. But I get so jealous of other people's counters, I'm allowed to dream! do you want bang's FC 5C, that lets him get the same combo as before...? lolz
unsanctifier Posted August 14, 2011 Posted August 14, 2011 Sounds like my 5C FC fatal! Wait, I don't use it..
Tari Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 (edited) ./edit: was thinking of the wrong combo for some reason. Well, even if 2c->BBL got changed up, and the j.236a timing got removed, I suppose we can always swap back to the CS1 BBL/j.2c combos wherever they fit, right? Sorta wish we had more info on Rachel's changes in general. j.2c not even being special cancellable on block is a bit sad (though I suppose it really doesn't make a huge difference if it were special cancellable on block or not, except when trolling). Edited August 15, 2011 by Tari
TTRlovesMittens Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 (though I suppose it really doesn't make a huge difference if it were special cancellable on block or not, except when trolling). BUT... All I do is troll! ;-;
gli Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 I'm still happy with Rachel even with these listed changes.
TD Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 ./edit: was thinking of the wrong combo for some reason.Well, even if 2c->BBL got changed up, and the j.236a timing got removed, I suppose we can always swap back to the CS1 BBL/j.2c combos wherever they fit, right? :v:Sorta wish we had more info on Rachel's changes in general. j.2c not even being special cancellable on block is a bit sad (though I suppose it really doesn't make a huge difference if it were special cancellable on block or not, except when trolling). 1)no. once the last hit of bbl hits, the opponent will always fall in the opposite direction unlike in cs. midscreen there is probably going to be a new way to land the fatal with 1 wind (that is, if one is found), the corner would be the same as its always been. 2) l dont think j2c being cancellable on the ground had any significant benefits besides safe oki, so it going wont affect anything. being air cancellable on hit is great compared. there's some dirty setups to be found with this.
Son of a Gun Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 I'm still happy with Rachel even with these listed changes. Me too and j.2C being cancelable compensates a bit too.
Tari Posted August 15, 2011 Posted August 15, 2011 (edited) 1)no. once the last hit of bbl hits, the opponent will always fall in the opposite direction unlike in cs. midscreen there is probably going to be a new way to land the fatal with 1 wind (that is, if one is found), the corner would be the same as its always been. 2) l dont think j2c being cancellable on the ground had any significant benefits besides safe oki, so it going wont affect anything. being air cancellable on hit is great compared. there's some dirty setups to be found with this. 1) You can dash over and j.2c without causing the opponent to fall towards you/past you, if you just delay the timing a bit. Actually landing a level 3 fatal is either significantly harder or impossible when they're very high in the air, though (due to how fast they fall in comparison to you), so things like the j.c JC j.c j.214c (land) BBL into lvl3 j.2c are probably not really viable anymore without burning an extra wind on j.2c. However, the old 2c 1d 6a BBL SJ8d lvl3 j.2c combo still works with a windless j.2c as long as you insert an air dash after the SJ. You lose about 90-100 damage as compared to the 2c 7d BBL starter, at least in CS2. I do this pretty often, because I'm still not up-to-date on CS2 combos, so I make use of CS1 variations. edit: did some testing, and 2c 7d BBL SJ8d->forward double jump->lvl 3 j.2c works. It's just freaking hard to time. It's a windless lvl 3 j.2c alternative to the j.236a timing if you ever feel the need to mess around with it. I assume that a simple forward air dash does in fact work for a windless j.2c fatal, then, if the forward jump does. Seems easier off the jump than the dash, though, personally, seeing as how I've yet to land it via dash. I'm really wanting to know why the j.236a setup doesn't work anymore, seeing as how if it's a BBL change, probably all of these setups will stop working. If it's just an aerial lobelia change, though.... (threw both of the above 2c CH combos into the combo thread with videos) 2) Yeah, I agree, it's not really a big loss that j.2c isn't cancellable at all. I think I mentioned somewhere that it being cancellable on block was sort of like a get-out-of-jail-free card for me, because I'd throw it out by accident and be totally okay. >____> Being air cancellable on hit is definitely much more awesome. Edited August 15, 2011 by Tari
kro_ Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Ending air combos with j.2c in CS2 always forced you into a knockdown situation where you didn't really have an advantage. Adding that air cancel on j.2c finally makes it worthwhile to do a basic windless air combo and still get decent oki out of it. Glad to have that back. They didn't bring back j.2c j.c chain right?
kotokot Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 Ending air combos with j.2c in CS2 always forced you into a knockdown situation where you didn't really have an advantage. Adding that air cancel on j.2c finally makes it worthwhile to do a basic windless air combo and still get decent oki out of it. Glad to have that back. j.2c oki is very powerful, opponent can only emergency tech, you have 4b meaty(can wake later with roll to escape) and 2a(beats all except instant emergency tech) with ~6-10 frames advantage for throw/5b/2b/2d j.a. But with air cancel it will be fucking awesome.
Kuuhaku Posted August 16, 2011 Author Posted August 16, 2011 Hmm. Well, the 2C part definitely sounds like they're kneejerk-ing. "Oh my god, there was this one video where someone (with two poles set up and in the corner) did 6K damage!" What a strong move! Oh, it's slow to start, loses to throws, and guarantees the hardest punish available if baited? Well let's nevermind that stuff, and just react to this number we see and don't understand..." Seriously though, it's only 5.2K, and that's with 50% and 2 or 3 winds available. Is that so far from what damage the opponent, with similar meter and resources, is going to do back if they bait it? Not to mention they can just run up and throw, which is 100% safe every time (worst you're going to get is a throw tech). Cat Chair damage is too high in CS2. For example- Matsu's 7k+ combo which can probably be optimized to do 8k. 5.2k is also really high mid-screen since it also gives full wind regen + summon oki. In the corner windless you can do almost 5k and get back all your wind at the cost 50 meter. I think it's fine with the damage reduction and with the hitstop change it's actually harder to bait in CS2. If it's back to CS1, then I am also okay with that. It's still very high damage mid-screen for what it is.
[SpA]Relentless Posted August 16, 2011 Posted August 16, 2011 They didn't bring back j.2c j.c chain right? I think not but I hope they do, just so I can do aircombo > j2CD jC land dash 6A BBL again. Such a stylish combo, I miss it.
Jason D. Posted August 17, 2011 Posted August 17, 2011 Cat Chair damage is too high in CS2. For example- Matsu's 7k+ combo which can probably be optimized to do 8k. 5.2k is also really high mid-screen since it also gives full wind regen + summon oki. In the corner windless you can do almost 5k and get back all your wind at the cost 50 meter. Now I have definitely never seen 7k before, so while I don't like asking other people to do the footwork, I'm going to need proof of that one. As I recall, the exaggerated numbers all started way back around here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B1KUy7EEDY&t=4m21s when a certain someone got 6.3k from having two poles out, which I'm assuming most people never noticed. Normally, the combo will be doing about... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evGUbQO1e-M&t=3m58s 5.0k http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qcmdFhTmH8&t=5m16s 5.7k http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXaxTlFfNrc&t=4m3s 4.8k http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B1KUy7EEDY&t=6m17s 5.4k And while those can still be somewhat high, also realize that you need a lot of resources handy to even start it off. And DEFINITELY note that it starts by using the world's crappiest reversal when you have your back to the corner. In fact, I'm going to pause here for a second for contemplative purposes. Let's all stop and imagine this. Cat chair in the corner. So, how often does cat chair fail? How easy is it to fail? And what happens to a character who leaves themselves wide open in the corner? Quite frankly, you are taking a huge risk by ever trying that, and you certainly should get a good reward for pulling it off. So Rachel got 5.7k to Hazama. That's cool. Why, that's almost as much as Hazama would have done to her if he baited and Jayoku-ed that. And personally, my punish would be 5CD, 3C, BBL, which will top out just under 7k. And again, I'm not saying her damage off this set up couldn't stand to be reduced a little, but yeah, I honestly don't believe it's too far off from where it needs to be. And from current reports, it's a little ridiculous now. Cat chair straight into super was 2.1k, I believe? And for only 50% meter! So... what, finish that off and get about 3k? And if Hazama calls you out instead, you're taking twice that damage, easily. Yeah, anyway, I say they need to re-adjust this. Or at least just make her 2C less crappy. (c'mon, throw invuln...)
DSveno Posted August 17, 2011 Posted August 17, 2011 Now I have definitely never seen 7k before, so while I don't like asking other people to do the footwork, I'm going to need proof of that one. I believe he was talking about the one in this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJNR6yuRxm0 About at 0:59. Although it took 100% heat and 4 winds.
TD Posted August 17, 2011 Posted August 17, 2011 considering rachel is supposed to be very bad at defense l dont blame the guys for what theyre doing. her offense is already really strong and she's probably the most versatile character in the game. if you think about it it really isnt unfair. it was said from the beginning that rachel players are going to have to learn how to block for a long time. now while cat chair being a 7k 0 wind dp would suit my fancy too, well... it probably won't be good... like ever. so we should just take what we can and use it. at the very least, doing the full combo gets all our wind back and strong oki.
Kuuhaku Posted August 17, 2011 Author Posted August 17, 2011 More like at least we're not Ragna and only get 1k.
Pyro_The_Kidd Posted August 17, 2011 Posted August 17, 2011 i want to be able to jump cancel cat chair in the next game
Chazmobile Posted August 17, 2011 Posted August 17, 2011 2c should be a 3 frame fully invuln reversal that FCs and is jump cancelable on both hit and block. MAKE IT HAPPEN ARCSYS
TD Posted August 17, 2011 Posted August 17, 2011 hell, why dosent 4b fc l always wondered why a 28f overhead would get 70 p1 and no fc... even if it does break a primer, and is safe. more is never enough air unblockable iris would also be not-broken. do this aksys. do eeet. hey what if rach had some sort of install like frkz? lf you hit with 4 irises nago turns into nago ball and rach gets unlimited wind for the rest of the round. that would be completely fair in every way. omg aksys DO THIS
Soniti Posted August 21, 2011 Posted August 21, 2011 More like at least we're not Ragna and only get 1k. You know as much as I do that you'd much rather have a real DP that does 1k dmg, which you can RC to get more, over cat chair.
Tari Posted August 21, 2011 Posted August 21, 2011 You know as much as I do that you'd much rather have a real DP that does 1k dmg, which you can RC to get more, over cat chair. As long as it still looks like an electrified Nago, a real DP would be just fine. :D
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