StarGazer Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 Both Goro and Tsujikawa left us, and i cant see Isa anywhere ~.~ I checked BBCS2.Net for Top Makoto players PSR's. Riyota is in the first place with 733 PSR and Yasuda in second place with 699 PSR (I might be wrong) CSEX Makoto is lame, i cant blame players for leaving her.
Crosell Posted October 17, 2011 Posted October 17, 2011 To be fair a lot of japan is influenced by tier lists. She won't be top tier so a lot of people are gonna drop her. Just as a lot of people picked her up because she was top tier.
Yoshara Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 (edited) Goro was originally a Lambda main who switched to Makoto just because he didn't like CS2 Lambda, so really, that was kinda what I expected to happen. Also, a lot of Makoto mains originally were Ragna mains, and in CS2 Makoto pretty much did everything Ragna did, but better, and now that Ragna is good they went back. EDIT: Really, we are using one of the least used characters in the game in the first place, and the only real reason so many people used her in Japan in CS2 was just because she was the best, so it only makes sense that when the characters they originally were playing/switched from get better that they will switch back. Edited October 18, 2011 by Yoshara
OmniSScythe Posted October 18, 2011 Author Posted October 18, 2011 Why I wouldn't be so sure most of them left for tier reasons since quite a few was playing her back in CS1, as of now she pretty boring as a character even compared to Tager at the moment.
Crosell Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 I find that statement ironic because the discussion earlier was how broken she was in cs1.
OmniSScythe Posted October 18, 2011 Author Posted October 18, 2011 But then you have to think, compared to who? Litchi, Valk and Tao had their own level of derp that surpassed raw damage, plus she was basically netplay only in japan at the time.
Exciel Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Play this character now if you want a character with a 2A, an overhead, and a throw.
Crosell Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Yeah she was but netplay is still a big part of Japan really. It seems like, she hasn't had a balanced iteration yet, and now that she has one that isn't broken people are dropping her which is to be expected. It actually reminds me of a conversation zong_one had with Tokido at Evo Zong : Tokido what happened to Bang Tokido : I drop Bang immediately, play noel now. Its just how it is, tiers influence top players in Japan because they are playing to win. Yes you have people who have character love : See Dora, but he is in the minority.
OmniSScythe Posted October 18, 2011 Author Posted October 18, 2011 We still have those, what we lost was damage and options. Might be repeating myself but even MORE of her specials seems useless now then in CS2 both for combo and offensive purposive. Wouldn't be wrong to think she's replacing Ragna as one of the entry level cast members.
Crosell Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 I can't comment on those, I haven't played her yet. I'm just commenting on people freaking out about top level players not playing her anymore. Anything you got from my statements beyond that is you reading too much into it :3 Do I like all of her changes? No. But everyone is acting like the Bang board from cs1. May this iteration suck and be the low point of Makoto, probably. Maybe I just don't see the affects of the nerfs on my style of play, because I'm not a top player or even good and I don't use a lot of Makoto stylish stuff (dp loops, counter hit dp full corner carry etc etc) from the videos I've seen she seems to be a character that is based strongly on your fundamentals and footies. Edit - read the entry level character and I was confused then I read it again and it clicked (its been a long day)
OmniSScythe Posted October 18, 2011 Author Posted October 18, 2011 In order: 4. You can still get orb oki, but it is in more specific situations (that Omni never mentioned). Just to point those situations. Option A End a combo after j.D or 5D with 214A~C~C > orb Option B End with 214A~D, if high enough you should be able to orb safely.
Crosell Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Feels like you have to make the decision between damage or oki huh
OmniSScythe Posted October 18, 2011 Author Posted October 18, 2011 Same as always, I suggest that if the combo's finish is gonna give less then 500 damage and 10 meter in profit then you might as well go for oki.
Eshi Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Can't wait for extend so makoto isn't dumb as hell and I can play her again! 6B nerf is kind of weird, but pretty much every other change is completely justified and she got some other nifty buffs.
StarGazer Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 CSEX Makoto is +balanced but -boring... its a win lose situation. ASW better do some magic for her in BB3 as am not impressed by playing only 2A Character.
Crosell Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Can't wait for extend so makoto isn't dumb as hell and I can play her again! 6B nerf is kind of weird, but pretty much every other change is completely justified and she got some other nifty buffs. Yay eshi, someone else who isn't all sad faced about a character they haven't played it. I too am excited!
MasterMind Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 I remember seeing in one of the loketests that 214A~D had longer range. Does anyone know if that's still in? I hope it is, because it's so fun to bait DP's with that move.
OmniSScythe Posted October 18, 2011 Author Posted October 18, 2011 If it is isn't not that noticeable/helpful.
Eshi Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 (edited) CSEX Makoto is +balanced but -boring... its a win lose situation. ASW better do some magic for her in BB3 as am not impressed by playing only 2A Character.Completely disagree. CS2 makoto is unbelievably boring, at least in regard to the things they took away. "Oh, I landed a hit somewhat near the corner, time to do the same 10 second combo with a hundred 2C's ending in orb oki or double super I've been doing since this game came out". The changes to her may be nerfs, but they also make her choices much less cut-and-dry, forcing more variety and less boringness. And since she can't just touch someone with 2 mix-ups and make them explode, players are also forced to use more creative and deep mix-up too. I love the changes they've done to her. She's not just a one man combo video like CSI Litchi anymore. Edited October 18, 2011 by Eshi
Exciel Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Uh every character in this game is like that unless you want to use like Arakune. If you let aesthetics get to you then I hope you're happy to hear Makoto's combos are still 10 seconds+ long in the corner. And what creative and deep mix ups? My Makoto certainly doesn't have any of that, she has a low, an overhead, a throw, and a command cross up. Guess what, none of them lead to any good damage or guaranteed okizeme that let her reset her mix up even with meter. But who cares, if you're doing mix ups midscreen you're not playing this game right. You're playing post-CS Blazblue, all you do is tag your opponent with a random hit into the corner and keep them there and now that Makoto can't do that without guarantees she sucks. Get outta here with the combo video comparison crap, first of all an interesting combo video has creative combos instead of optimal combos that you use in a real match, second of all you're playing a fighting game to win not to sugarcoat your opponents eyes with some dazzling and beautiful and creative combo. The amount of weak mentality on this forum is mindboggling, I'm not saying you have to be a top pro tournament player but honestly if it's 2011 and you still have a low tier warrior mindset you really need to consider your priorities for fighting games if you play competitively. CS2 Makoto was in no way broken it's just many other characters were just too weak, and even so, at high level play you still have a Tsubaki winning SBO and no Makoto's in top 4. /nerdrage That being said, it isn't that bad. Right now Makoto is considered to be the bottom character in the game but even so it isn't CS1 Rachel bad and as long as you have good fundamentals you can win. I even think it might be ironically laughably fun to be the most bottom tier character for a version of the game right after being the top most. It's just this character is undeniably boring now that she has no tools at all besides the most basic fundamentals of normals and commands that amusingly alone can make her better than CS1 Rachel. You might as well be playing a Tsubaki that can't charge, which is almost what they did to her in CSE and probably why she's consider the second worst character in the game right over Makoto currently.
OmniSScythe Posted October 18, 2011 Author Posted October 18, 2011 (edited) Completely disagree. CS2 makoto is unbelievably boring, at least in regard to the things they took away. "Oh, I landed a hit somewhat near the corner, time to do the same 10 second combo with a hundred 2C's ending in orb oki or double super I've been doing since this game came out". The changes to her may be nerfs, but they also make her choices much less cut-and-dry, forcing more variety and less boringness. And since she can't just touch someone with 2 mix-ups and make them explode, players are also forced to use more creative and deep mix-up too. I love the changes they've done to her. She's not just a one man combo video like CSI Litchi anymore. Completely disagree. Her choices in EX makes her more cut-and-dry than ever before. Examples: 2C: Same move proration is probably justified, however making it almost impossible to land it outside the corner is hurting her variety and options. Not a stand alone problem because of changes to orb/asteroid vision and shooting star. 5D/2D/j.D: Changes to add repeat proration to any level of those moves, especially when it comes to 2D and 5D killed plenty of chances to variety her options, it's basically level 3 charge only now for the most part. Shooting star: While it might still be good for character specific corner push the fact that you can only wall bounce on CH with a already gimmick move is a strong lost. Having wall bounce, even if you couldn't had continue a combo off it would had still be useful for setting up oki situations outside of the basic orb stuff which is already strong now if you knew how to utilize it. Lightning arrow: Unless you can otg with 2A/2B it's basically a gimmick that needs CH to follow up, both it and shooting star share a factor where it can be beaten by almost anything. Corona Upper: Losing the ability to combo off counter hit is fine, losing the ability to use it to follow up a combo is really disappointing when compared to all the other nerfs. Break Shot: They basically made the original lvl 3 CH only and the new one over charged lvl 2D, if you can follow it up midscreen with dash 5B like in CS1 then it can be really interesting to see it be a standard off good starters or rapid cancel. Asteroid vision: I hope the new paths ends up being useful, otherwise it's a another throw away special only useful as a alternative for rapid canceling a blocked 2C. Mars Chopper: Holy crap the proration on it looks good, sadly without rapid just landing is the same as Hazama's 214D~A but even more risky. Space counter: Proration nerf is justified but with her changes she probably should had kept it. Particle Flare: I'll wait to see how it over time, current the move seem only useful to end a match since it already left us at disadvantage back in CS2 (Think Bang's CS1 Asura). Either way I like some of her changes but almost nothing was for the overall better, character wise. Edited October 18, 2011 by OmniSScythe
Kimchi Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Makoto had the most freedom in CS2 in my opinion. Once people figure out the most optimal combo route, that is probably all were gonna see in extend which isn't really a bad thing. She probably had the most variety in cs2 as well. Seeing the things that they have taken away in Extend, she'll be even more limited in what she can do. There is no Creative or deep-mixups. Makoto is Linear and will pretty much stay linear.
Eshi Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 There's too much to individually respond to so I'll simply add clarification to my post. There is way WAY more to mix-up than high low throw, end of story. CS2 Makoto's design is bad because her damage, corner carry and corner oki are way out of whack, allowing players to only have to land a 2A frame trap or a simple mix-up to either force a burst or win, unless your opponent has a disproportionately strong defense to take away her advantage. AFAIK they took away a lot of her orb oki setups, which is good because meterless and practically guaranteed okizeme is way too strong in this game. People will have to use/find different and less reliable oki setups, which is a lot better design. And since she can't touch of death you from two or three hits, players will have to rely more on creative frame-traps, spacing, mind games, etc. to get the same damage, which is also better design. These changes don't make her stronger, but that's not the point because she sure as hell needed huge nerfs as long as she doesn't turn into CSI Noel. Makoto being broken as fuck and doing ridiculous damage off of everything may be interesting for certain players, but this REALLY turned me off of her and is why I switched to Tsubaki. She doesn't get crazy reward from everything - she has to manage a resource, which sacrifices her offense, or create specific setups to get comparable damage, but she has a ton of setups and tools to keep them from just being gimmicks. She is extremely interesting and fun to play and I honestly think she's by far the best designed character. From the looks of the changes and gameplay videos I've seen, Makoto looks a lot more like this, and it gets me really excited to take her to the lab and see what new things she can do. With that said, I still miss CSI asteroid vision and want it back. =/
Luminos564 Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 I've been watching every video of Makoto that I could find. In all honesty, I found a grand total of about 8 matches with her (yes, really that was it). And of those matches, do you know how many victories there were and against whom? It was 2 wins, one against a Tsubaki and one against Taokaka. Yeah, that was all. And not very good ones either. The rest consisted of non-stop beat-downs that made Makoto look like a sandbag. Its, really rather depressing if you ask me. In fact, I am almost in agreement with people calling her the new "CS1 Rachel". I say almost, because unlike her, Makoto can still do some potent damage. But just looking at the wins, the amount of work the Makoto players had to do in order to just barely scrape by a win is damn near equivalent to CS1 Rachel's personal battles. I realise its been barely a week since Extend came out but this is really not looking good .
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